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Oh I was wrong they must disembark within 6" so that's "only" a 22" average charge.

axisofentropy wrote:
Oh I was wrong they must disembark within 6" so that's "only" a 22" average charge.

Move 6", Disembark 6". 2d6 Charge move gives any basic model at 24" Threat range.

Fragile wrote:

axisofentropy wrote:
Oh I was wrong they must disembark within 6" so that's "only" a 22" average charge.

Move 6", Disembark 6". 2d6 Charge move gives any basic model at 24" Threat range.

That's the max. Dunestriders get an average of 22 and a max of 27.

You could probably add an inch or 2 by starting the raider perpendicular to the line, then pivoting before moving, so 24" average, 29 max.

Maths of eight Ruststalkers charging things:
(because eight fit within a Land Raider Crusader)

Wraithknight
Mindscrambler grenade almost certainly hits, 4+ wound, 3+ save, 0.167 wounds
No overwatch
Both swing simultaneously
Wraithknight swings 4 times and splats two Ruststalkers.
Rustalkers swing 33 times and 8 of those are Chordclaw Fleshbane attacks.
4 Fleshbane hits, nearly all Wound, and some may be AP2 so maybe 1.5 Wounds unsaved
12.5 Transonic Razor hits, average of two Furious Charge sixes which become AP2 so 3.5 Wounds total. A Doctrina that increases WS makes this roughly 4.0 wounds.

Note that adding The Omnicient Mask for 20 points brings the average Wounds closer to the six needed and prevents fleeing after failing Leadership 7. A great buy if your Ruststalkers will attack big targets like this. Or pair with an IC like a Chaplain.

Next round the Wraithknight splats two more. Ruststalkers can only hurt T8 with Chordclaws. 6 swings, three AP2 hits, enough to finish off the Wraithknight after losing half the squad, 125 points. The rest of the unit dies during your opponent's shooting phase.

Imperial Knight
Haywire grenade probably removes a hull point. No overwatch. Everyone swings at I4.
Knight splats 1.5 Ruststalkers.
4 Haywire hits but Knight still has 1 remaining unless you shot it with something else right?
If it's still alive, the Knight's stomps remove several more Ruststalkers, but they kill it next round. Expect to lose 25% - 75% of the squad. Still a good trade if you lose them all. Again, rules like Zealot greatly increase your odds, as does even +1 WS Doctrina Imperative.

Six Canoptek Wraiths
If the mindscrambler grenade gets three hits, it could cause half a wound on average, but don't count on it.
The Wraiths with Whip Coils swing first and probably Instant Death half of the Ruststalkers. welp nevermind.
The remaining Ruststalkers swing first 19 times. Half of the four Chordclaw attacks hit, yielding roughly half an unsaved wound. The remaining razor attacks may finish off a single Wraith unless they have those Reanimation Protocols.
This is a very bad matchup for the Ruststalkers. This is one matchup where the Infiltrators might have the advantage since they'd swing at the same time and could even make the Wraiths hit on 5+. Those flachette blasters would even add some wounds when charging.

Who else do Imperial players worry about?

harkequin wrote:
You could probably add an inch or 2 by starting the raider perpendicular to the line, then pivoting before moving, so 24" average, 29 max.

That has been erata'd, distance moved is measured from the starting position hull edge.

That has been erata'd, distance moved is measured from the starting position hull edge

could you link me that? It's not in the most recent errata.
IIRC Pivots do not count toward movement totals for vehicles.
I know you're correct for things like bikes pivoting but not sure about vehicles.

I think it is even in the BRB; says something like "no part of the vehicle my be further from its starting point than it's movement allows".
So you are not allowed to pivot at the end to gain that inch since that would break that rule.

Nothing about it in the BRB or in the FAQ.
The closest relevant section is

Vehicles can turn any number of times as they move, just like any other model. Vehicles turn by pivoting on the spot about their centre-point, rather than wheeling round. Pivoting on the spot alone does not count as moving, so a vehicle that only pivots in the Movement phase counts as Stationary (however, Immobilised vehicles cannot even pivot on the spot). Pivoting is always done from the centre of a vehicle to prevent it from accidentally moving further than intended or allowed. Just like other units, vehicles cannot move over friendly models.

As long as you pivot around the centre you are fine, for a lnadraider it might result in your hull being 1" further before you move, whereas in a Ghost ark, it would be 2-3" further.

I think you may be thinking of the part for non vehicle models moving, no part of their base may end the move further than their move away, so it effectively stops bike bases and oval ones, from pivoting

It is a good house rule tho.

Depends on the house :p . I wouldnt have an issue if it was one, but in case you're trying to get the most bang for your buck (eg.tourney scene) might be worth noting that it is possible.

Oh god... The new Eldar....

Equal points Scatriders to Rangers. (6:10)

Rangers (At 30") (7x Rifles, 3x Arquebus)

2 Arquebus hits, 1 wound, if jink, 0.5 die, if not, 1 dies.
4.62 Rifle hits, 2.31 wounds, 0.76 jetbikes die.

Jetbikes (At 30") (6x Slaser)
15.84 hits, 13.04 wounds, 6.52 Rangers die.

If they jinked, 4 hits, 3.29 wounds, 1.646 Rangers die.

Rangers (At 15")
2 Arquebus hits, 1 wound, if jink, 0.5 die, if not, 1 dies.
9.24 Rifle hits, 4.62 wounds, 1.52 jetbikes die.

I cannot find a way to counter the new Jetbikes and Wraithknight. The WK is now essentially immune to Chordclaws, so Transonic Swords are probably more useful against it.

 Verviedi wrote:
Oh god... The new Eldar....

Equal points Scatriders to Rangers. (6:10)

Rangers (At 30") (7x Rifles, 3x Arquebus)

2 Arquebus hits, 1 wound, if jink, 0.5 die, if not, 1 dies.
4.62 Rifle hits, 2.31 wounds, 0.76 jetbikes die.

Jetbikes (At 30") (6x Slaser)
15.84 hits, 13.04 wounds, 6.52 Rangers die.

If they jinked, 4 hits, 3.29 wounds, 1.646 Rangers die.

Rangers (At 15")
2 Arquebus hits, 1 wound, if jink, 0.5 die, if not, 1 dies.
9.24 Rifle hits, 4.62 wounds, 1.52 jetbikes die.

I cannot find a way to counter the new Jetbikes and Wraithknight. The WK is now essentially immune to Chordclaws, so Transonic Swords are probably more useful against it.

Vanguards and Jezzail Dragoons out of AdMech. Fish for 6's. Doubly good on the Jezzail (reducing sniper to wounding on 6's doesn't matter, you wanted 6's anyway). Monster Hunter Calivers may also be good, but difficult to get.

 obsidiankatana wrote:

 Verviedi wrote:
Oh god... The new Eldar....

Equal points Scatriders to Rangers. (6:10)

Rangers (At 30") (7x Rifles, 3x Arquebus)

2 Arquebus hits, 1 wound, if jink, 0.5 die, if not, 1 dies.
4.62 Rifle hits, 2.31 wounds, 0.76 jetbikes die.

Jetbikes (At 30") (6x Slaser)
15.84 hits, 13.04 wounds, 6.52 Rangers die.

If they jinked, 4 hits, 3.29 wounds, 1.646 Rangers die.

Rangers (At 15")
2 Arquebus hits, 1 wound, if jink, 0.5 die, if not, 1 dies.
9.24 Rifle hits, 4.62 wounds, 1.52 jetbikes die.

I cannot find a way to counter the new Jetbikes and Wraithknight. The WK is now essentially immune to Chordclaws, so Transonic Swords are probably more useful against it.

Vanguards and Jezzail Dragoons out of AdMech. Fish for 6's. Doubly good on the Jezzail (reducing sniper to wounding on 6's doesn't matter, you wanted 6's anyway). Monster Hunter Calivers may also be good, but difficult to get.

In addition to what you said, the above math leaves out the doctrines.

If the Jetbikes are still as gak in assault as they used to be (which knowing GW, they probably got buffed there too) the dragoons are fast enough to catch up to them and charge if the Eldar player's hubris allows you to surprise them with the dunestrider mobility.

I am gonna wait and see if it is an error, or if they errata the jetbikes soon after release.

I plan to try and playtest a few varients of the three man onager units.

If. the wave serpent is weakened and IF the bikes is an error I can see running a lot more things like rhinos instead of drop pods.

 Verviedi wrote:
The WK is now essentially immune to Chordclaws...

I thought Chordclaws gave you Fleshbane and Unstoppable doesn't do anything against Fleshbane?

Rad carbines should work too. Rad poisoning always wounds on a six and causes extra wounds, right?

 Verviedi wrote:
Oh god... The new Eldar....

Equal points Scatriders to Rangers. (6:10)

Rangers (At 30") (7x Rifles, 3x Arquebus)

2 Arquebus hits, 1 wound, if jink, 0.5 die, if not, 1 dies.
4.62 Rifle hits, 2.31 wounds, 0.76 jetbikes die.

Jetbikes (At 30") (6x Slaser)
15.84 hits, 13.04 wounds, 6.52 Rangers die.

If they jinked, 4 hits, 3.29 wounds, 1.646 Rangers die.

Rangers (At 15")
2 Arquebus hits, 1 wound, if jink, 0.5 die, if not, 1 dies.
9.24 Rifle hits, 4.62 wounds, 1.52 jetbikes die.

I cannot find a way to counter the new Jetbikes and Wraithknight. The WK is now essentially immune to Chordclaws, so Transonic Swords are probably more useful against it.

if they way it is written in the white dwarf is what ends up in the codex I dont think this is a Skitarii problem its a 40k problem. unlimited scatterlaser jetbikes for 27 points cannot be beat when backed up by long ranged StrD.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ultimentra wrote:
If the Jetbikes are still as gak in assault as they used to be (which knowing GW, they probably got buffed there too) the dragoons are fast enough to catch up to them and charge if the Eldar player's hubris allows you to surprise them with the dunestrider mobility.

Jetbikes are just too mobile. With 12" move 36" range followed by 2d6" assault move you will never get in range. Not on a AV11 walker.

harkequin wrote:
Nothing about it in the BRB or in the FAQ.
The closest relevant section is

Vehicles can turn any number of times as they move, just like any other model. Vehicles turn by pivoting on the spot about their centre-point, rather than wheeling round. Pivoting on the spot alone does not count as moving, so a vehicle that only pivots in the Movement phase counts as Stationary (however, Immobilised vehicles cannot even pivot on the spot). Pivoting is always done from the centre of a vehicle to prevent it from accidentally moving further than intended or allowed. Just like other units, vehicles cannot move over friendly models.

You only get a free pivot if that's all you do in the movement phase. Otherwise you measure as normal the distance moved. Nothing in the text above gives you license to move additional free distance.

As I sit here waiting for the glue to dry on my giant crabs of doom with magnets!

And without getting into the potential new eldar, I've been daydreaming of the gunline army again with these crabs.

Thinking of going with something like:

2 units of 3x onagers with icarus
Deredeo pattern Dreadnought
Sciaran battle tank
Fire raptor gunship with 2 storm talons
*mandantory master of the forge

all in the same list. It's a literal truckton of firepower but of course leaves the list kind of light on other things. What should I fill the rest of the army out with for 1850?
And should I drop something or other in that madness?

I think I'd feel like an ork with all that dakka lolol

You already got your crabs!!! lucky

Onager. They jink? Have that coveEred.ered. if not you're throwing quote a few dIce. Through in three for a 4++ and don't forgot the eradication laser. Yes it'll pop but you should get at least one solid round of spring shooting in and completely decimate whatever you want.

Alternatively, as many radium weapons as you deem possible. P Either you'll force them to jink and hamstring their damage output or evaporate.

I don't think three walkers are as good as a single imperial knight. Run them in smaller units of one or two.

 Leth wrote:
You already got your crabs!!! lucky

Never before have I been jealous of a man with crabs

axisofentropy wrote:
I don't think three walkers are as good as a single imperial knight. Run them in smaller units of one or two.

In my opinion, Onagers should be ran in 3's to maximize the invulnerable save...otherwise their usefulness takes a hit. Also, don't forget the doctrines and the fact that they boost the leadership of nearby Skitarii (though only at 6 inches which may not come up often). Knights do have some impressive killing power, but Onagers shouldn't be discounted entirely. Plus, they are cool and my list already has a knight. If I took multiple knights my friends would be none too appreciative.

 Perfect Organism wrote:

 Verviedi wrote:
The WK is now essentially immune to Chordclaws...

I thought Chordclaws gave you Fleshbane and Unstoppable doesn't do anything against Fleshbane?

Rad carbines should work too. Rad poisoning always wounds on a six and causes extra wounds, right?

You're right. Fleshbane still works against GMC's , it's amazing. My Tyranids player hates my Talos's because of how they tear apart his Heirodule better than the Heirodule hurts it.

 Gridge wrote:

axisofentropy wrote:
I don't think three walkers are as good as a single imperial knight. Run them in smaller units of one or two.

In my opinion, Onagers should be ran in 3's to maximize the invulnerable save...otherwise their usefulness takes a hit. Also, don't forget the doctrines and the fact that they boost the leadership of nearby Skitarii (though only at 6 inches which may not come up often). Knights do have some impressive killing power, but Onagers shouldn't be discounted entirely. Plus, they are cool and my list already has a knight. If I took multiple knights my friends would be none too appreciative.

Then they all have to shoot at the same target, and penetrating hits can roll through the squad. And their huge bases will have a hard time staying both in coherency and in line of sight.

You should try it tho, we're all just speculating.

axisofentropy wrote:

 Gridge wrote:

axisofentropy wrote:
I don't think three walkers are as good as a single imperial knight. Run them in smaller units of one or two.

In my opinion, Onagers should be ran in 3's to maximize the invulnerable save...otherwise their usefulness takes a hit. Also, don't forget the doctrines and the fact that they boost the leadership of nearby Skitarii (though only at 6 inches which may not come up often). Knights do have some impressive killing power, but Onagers shouldn't be discounted entirely. Plus, they are cool and my list already has a knight. If I took multiple knights my friends would be none too appreciative.

Then they all have to shoot at the same target, and penetrating hits can roll through the squad. And their huge bases will have a hard time staying both in coherency and in line of sight.

You should try it tho, we're all just speculating.

They can also increase their survivability by rotating members, take advantage of their large foot print. With 4 inch coherency I have never seen squadrons have a hard time maintaining coherency. In a larger group you are nearly doubling/tripling how long they will live. Sure penetrating shots will go through the squad, luckily you are cutting the number of shots by a 1/3

 Leth wrote:

axisofentropy wrote:

 Gridge wrote:

axisofentropy wrote:
I don't think three walkers are as good as a single imperial knight. Run them in smaller units of one or two.

In my opinion, Onagers should be ran in 3's to maximize the invulnerable save...otherwise their usefulness takes a hit. Also, don't forget the doctrines and the fact that they boost the leadership of nearby Skitarii (though only at 6 inches which may not come up often). Knights do have some impressive killing power, but Onagers shouldn't be discounted entirely. Plus, they are cool and my list already has a knight. If I took multiple knights my friends would be none too appreciative.

Then they all have to shoot at the same target, and penetrating hits can roll through the squad. And their huge bases will have a hard time staying both in coherency and in line of sight.

You should try it tho, we're all just speculating.

They can also increase their survivability by rotating members, take advantage of their large foot print. With 4 inch coherency I have never seen squadrons have a hard time maintaining coherency. In a larger group you are nearly doubling/tripling how long they will live. Sure penetrating shots will go through the squad, luckily you are cutting the number of shots by a 1/3

The only problem like this is the inherent problem with squadding vehicles. To quote my opponent, the reason he runs all of his Piranhas as seperate units is so a high-ROF AV weapon, instead of killing multiple vehicles, does massive overkill to one due to only targetting one vehicle.

Now, the Onagers, they seem durable enough to squad in 3s.

 Leth wrote:

axisofentropy wrote:

 Gridge wrote:

axisofentropy wrote:
I don't think three walkers are as good as a single imperial knight. Run them in smaller units of one or two.

In my opinion, Onagers should be ran in 3's to maximize the invulnerable save...otherwise their usefulness takes a hit. Also, don't forget the doctrines and the fact that they boost the leadership of nearby Skitarii (though only at 6 inches which may not come up often). Knights do have some impressive killing power, but Onagers shouldn't be discounted entirely. Plus, they are cool and my list already has a knight. If I took multiple knights my friends would be none too appreciative.

Then they all have to shoot at the same target, and penetrating hits can roll through the squad. And their huge bases will have a hard time staying both in coherency and in line of sight.

You should try it tho, we're all just speculating.

They can also increase their survivability by rotating members, take advantage of their large foot print. With 4 inch coherency I have never seen squadrons have a hard time maintaining coherency. In a larger group you are nearly doubling/tripling how long they will live. Sure penetrating shots will go through the squad, luckily you are cutting the number of shots by a 1/3

Onagers are tough but i've squaded lleman russes and had them run through as well. As you said its simply an inherent danger and with the amount of scatter laser shots that one may be facing soon it's definitely worth taking into account.

It's important also to consider assaults. Now obviously you never want most vehicles in assault but it is something that happens. An assault squad geared for vehicles can rip through a squad like a tin can. Its not something you want to happen and you can do a lot to prevent it but it happens and when it does, the question is are you ready to see a 500 pt. unit go up in smoke in one assault phase? Cause when it happens it sucks. It's only happened to me twice but it was enough to make me seriously question using them in the future. Use with caution.