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Question came up today when I placed a blast on the edge of the "upper level" of an Aquila strongpoint. My opponent wanted to claim that the models on the battlements of the lower level couldn't be hit because they were on a different level. The issue also came up during the same game when a substantially tall hill had models standing on it and behind it, and were targeted with a blast.


I know the 7th edition rules mention nothing about levels in ruins at all, but many people have adopted the 6th and previous ruin rules for templates, and I was curious what your take was on how that works for other things?

Also, when shooting my warhound titan, the template was placed over its head. It scattered off, hitting a ruin. I claimed that they were targeting ground level, where the titan was standing, and so their blast was also at "level 0", where no models were standing, rather than 12" off the ground like they placed it when shooting the titan. Was I right or wrong there?

Or, if I was wrong, how should it be played? Should they target a certain height regardless of the fact that the titan is on the ground, in CASE they scatter into a ruin?

rules is rules. if the template is shot at a unit on the top level, everything under it is hit.

as for the titan question, HIWPI, the template stays at the level you shot it at, which is over the model you shot at. when it scatters, you can say it hits the highest point underneath it, and everything under the marker is hit


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One thing i have noticed though, is that teardrop templates must touch the firing models base. which, unless the firing model is itself on a higher level, will make it very difficult to hit more than one level

Also, there are no levels in terrain anymore - check out ruins specifically - there are exactly zero rules for different levels.

It's a hang over from past editions

there are no levels.

EVERYTHING under the template is hit, regardless of location.

with your titan question, you were wrong. everything under the template i.e. if the template covered the building then all models in the building are hit.

If there are no more levels, does that mean that the Mawloc's "this attack only hits the models on the lowest level" rule is now functionally meaningless?

Ok I think you guys misunderstood.

I understand 7th edition doesn't have levels, and everything gets hit.

But ITC uses the old rules, and I do a lot of tournaments, which also use the ITC and the old level rules.

SO. Assuming we ARE using the old level rules, do only ruins have levels, or do you guys play that stepped hills, certain fortifications, titans' heads or shoulders, etc. also have levels different from the terrain around them?

Yes, under the old rules only ruins had levels.

So if a template weapon is fired, and it cannot reach over any model on a higher level, you are saying models above the template still get hit? It says models beneath the template. If you are using a flamer from the ground, surely you cannot claim to hit models above?

 jokerkd wrote:
So if a template weapon is fired, and it cannot reach over any model on a higher level, you are saying models above the template still get hit? It says models beneath the template. If you are using a flamer from the ground, surely you cannot claim to hit models above?

Who are you responding to?

 jokerkd wrote:

One thing i have noticed though, is that teardrop templates must touch the firing models base. which, unless the firing model is itself on a higher level, will make it very difficult to hit more than one level

If you are trying to claim that you have to literally touch the template the models base then it doesn't even function very well for shooting at units on the ground

 CrownAxe wrote:

If you are trying to claim that you have to literally touch the template the models base then it doesn't even function very well for shooting at units on the ground

I've been doing it that way for 20 years now, and never had any major issues with it.

 CrownAxe wrote:

 jokerkd wrote:

One thing i have noticed though, is that teardrop templates must touch the firing models base. which, unless the firing model is itself on a higher level, will make it very difficult to hit more than one level

If you are trying to claim that you have to literally touch the template the models base then it doesn't even function very well for shooting at units on the ground

Yes. That is what the rules say you must do

 jokerkd wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

 jokerkd wrote:

One thing i have noticed though, is that teardrop templates must touch the firing models base. which, unless the firing model is itself on a higher level, will make it very difficult to hit more than one level

If you are trying to claim that you have to literally touch the template the models base then it doesn't even function very well for shooting at units on the ground

Yes. That is what the rules say you must do

In that case "under the template" is meaningless. I'll just fire my flamer from 48" away and place the template vertically, hitting most of your models across the table.

How do you figure that? If you place the template vertically, the only thing likely to be under the template is the table.


'under' means 'under'.

Misunderstanding i think. The template has to touch the firing models base

Yes which mean you can never place it horizontally because you will always have to angle it to go over the models you are shooting at

That means you will hit less models if the unit is right next to you then if it were a couple inches away.

 CrownAxe wrote:
Yes which mean you can never place it horizontally because you will always have to angle it to go over the models you are shooting at

That means you will hit less models if the unit is right next to you then if it were a couple inches away.

Pretty much, yes.

As I said, though, I've had few actual issues with it... and it's how templates have worked since 2nd edition.

 insaniak wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:
Yes which mean you can never place it horizontally because you will always have to angle it to go over the models you are shooting at

That means you will hit less models if the unit is right next to you then if it were a couple inches away.

Pretty much, yes.

As I said, though, I've had few actual issues with it... and it's how templates have worked since 2nd edition.

I've been playing since 3rd edition and literally never seen anyone do it this way, ever.

 insaniak wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:
Yes which mean you can never place it horizontally because you will always have to angle it to go over the models you are shooting at

That means you will hit less models if the unit is right next to you then if it were a couple inches away.

Pretty much, yes.

As I said, though, I've had few actual issues with it... and it's how templates have worked since 2nd edition.

I think everyone just hovers the template over the models to be hit. I have never seen anyone claim that I have to actually touch the base with the template, even though it is in the rules.

Okay, this has been bugging me for a bit, so I looked it up. There's a section for templates and blasts early on in the book, and describes how they work, though it specifically says that how they scatter or how they work is clarified later in the book.

This section says to hold the template over the models and look down. The template (or blast) hits whatever model it's over or touches. Now, since it would be impossible to touch a model while holding it over the model, it must be implied that this is "touching" from a 2-dimensional perspective of looking over and down. In that case "touching" the firing model's base would not require physically touching it, but touching it from the 2-d look-down perspective.

I think that safely puts this to bed, eh?

 Yarium wrote:
Now, since it would be impossible to touch a model while holding it over the model,...

It would?

Why?

 insaniak wrote:

 Yarium wrote:
Now, since it would be impossible to touch a model while holding it over the model,...

It would?

Why?

Because then it's resting on the models, not being held over top of them.

In that case, you're saying that since it needs to physically touch to count as "touching", then you can shoot through your own unit since you only need to make sure you don't touch them (BRB, Page 173, paragraph 1). Of course, then your own unit would be hit too, since it hits all models even partially under the template.

This also disagrees with the image provided in the rulebook under this section, which shows 3 flamer templates all the same size shooting over a wall. If the "physically touching the base" part were true, then this image - the rulebook's example of how it works - would show the leftmost flamer being longer than middle flamer, and shorter than the rightmost flamer. This is not shown.

The only logically acceptable answer is that by "touching" the rules are implying any model not under the template, but instead "touching" that outline when viewed from above.

Touching its shadow (if a lamp were directly above it) as it were. I agree with Yarium's interpretation of this.

 Yarium wrote:

Because then it's resting on the models, not being held over top of them.

I'm not seeing why it can't do both. The roof is over the top of my house, even though it's touching the walls.

In that case, you're saying that since it needs to physically touch to count as "touching", then you can shoot through your own unit since you only need to make sure you don't touch them (BRB, Page 173, paragraph 1).

That would be true if the blast/template rules only revolved around the marker/template touching the models under it.

It doesn't. It hits any model underneath the marker or template. The 'touching' reference is superfluous, since it's not going to be touching anything that isn't underneath it.

If the "physically touching the base" part were true,...

You say that like it isn't specifically stated in the rules...

It is true, because the rules say it.

...then this image - the rulebook's example of how it works - would show the leftmost flamer being longer than middle flamer, and shorter than the rightmost flamer. This is not shown.

That just makes it a badly drawn example picture.

 insaniak wrote:
That would be true if the blast/template rules only revolved around the marker/template touching the models under it.

It doesn't. It hits any model underneath the marker or template. The 'touching' reference is superfluous, since it's not going to be touching anything that isn't underneath it.

The point is that the rule about avoiding models specifically says "touching":

Instead of rolling To Hit, simply place the template so that its narrow end is touching the base of the firing model and the rest of the template covers as many models in the target unit as possible, without touching any other friendly models (including other models from the firing model’s unit).

So if touching only refers to physical contact between the model and the template, not overlapping from a top-down view, it's perfectly legal to place the flamer template over friendly models (including models in your own unit), just as long as the plastic template is 0.000000000001" above them. Obviously you'll inflict hits from the template weapon on your own unit, but that might be an acceptable price to pay.

That just makes it a badly drawn example picture.

Alternatively, it's a picture that is entirely consistent with the 2d top-down interpretation of "touching".

Since the 2d version isn't backed up by anything in the actual written rules, though, the point stands.

If they meant for the word to mean anything different to what it actually means, the rules need to say as much. Hinting at it through examination of the relative shapes of templates in example diagrams is not sufficient.

That just makes it a badly drawn example picture.

If we can say that, then i can counter with "it's just a badly written rule."

The only way to achieve a consensus where we both play consistently is to accept that the picture is drawn correctly.

How does it make sense that you'd get less hits with a flamer against taller models (because you have to angle the template up more), anyway?

Clearly holding the Template over the models and looking down is the only sensible way to do it. Is it RAW? No. Is the RAW in this case pretty clearly bonkers? Yeah.

GW sucks at writing rules properly.

Unahim wrote:
How does it make sense that you'd get less hits with a flamer against taller models (because you have to angle the template up more), anyway?

How does it make sense that if the guy holding the meltagun dies, nobody else can pick it up?
How does it make sense that the guy standing at the front of the unit magically catches every single incoming shot until he dies and the next closest model becomes the target?
How does it make sense that your chances of hitting a fast moving jetbike on the other side of the table are exactly the same as your chances of hitting the warlord titan that's standing directly in front of you?

If you're going to use 'does it make sense' as a criteria for disregarding 40K rules, you're going to wind up changing an awful lot of rules...


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 Yarium wrote:
The only way to achieve a consensus where we both play consistently is to accept that the picture is drawn correctly.

Sorry... but, what?

'We disagree, so the only correct approach is to do it my way!'...?

 insaniak wrote:

Unahim wrote:
How does it make sense that you'd get less hits with a flamer against taller models (because you have to angle the template up more), anyway?

How does it make sense that if the guy holding the meltagun dies, nobody else can pick it up?
How does it make sense that the guy standing at the front of the unit magically catches every single incoming shot until he dies and the next closest model becomes the target?
How does it make sense that your chances of hitting a fast moving jetbike on the other side of the table are exactly the same as your chances of hitting the warlord titan that's standing directly in front of you?

If you're going to use 'does it make sense' as a criteria for disregarding 40K rules, you're going to wind up changing an awful lot of rules...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Yarium wrote:
The only way to achieve a consensus where we both play consistently is to accept that the picture is drawn correctly.

Sorry... but, what?

'We disagree, so the only correct approach is to do it my way!'...?

So just to be clear then, you play allowing models to flame through their own units, as long as the template does not PSYSICALLY touch the models?