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Hey guys,
If anyone from PPC reads this, it would be super cool if the tamurkhan warscrolls got point costs, as well as the chaos dwarfs

Smellingsalts wrote:
Hey guys,
If anyone from PPC reads this, it would be super cool if the tamurkhan warscrolls got point costs, as well as the chaos dwarfs

Hi Smellingsalts!

There was another request for this on the blog by Ultimate Gamers, so I've squeezed those two armies on the to-do list between finishing v0.5 and beginning v0.6. So once Warrors of Chaos and Wood Elves are updated to v0.5, the forgeworld lists will be created. This will probably be next week for both lists.

Cheers and thanks for the request, always nice to see new posts around

A thing I learned from todays battle. Skeleton archers are nearly useless :p Well not really, but I would much rather have another sheleton with sword and shield than I would want one with a bow. They just don't do much for 9 points. And I'm still guessing that this goes for alot of other archer units. Just saying.

Andreas 2.0 wrote:
A thing I learned from todays battle. Skeleton archers are nearly useless :p Well not really, but I would much rather have another sheleton with sword and shield than I would want one with a bow. They just don't do much for 9 points. And I'm still guessing that this goes for alot of other archer units. Just saying.

With more and more games in, I too believe this to be true. Anyone else feel that regular ranged units doesn't really hold up compared to their high cost? If so, I can go through them again when I look into monsters for v0.6.

I can say the -1 to hit targets in melee (or when shooting out of melee) goes a long way into balancing them. Hybrid units (good at ranged and melee, or mainly melee with a little ranged) seem appropriately costed to me thus far, but with the comp rules bringing shooting to a more reasonable level I think he may be right. I only have a small amount of direct evidence to go on, however.

In the games I've played so far, my archers haven't been looking too hot. That being said, I've only really fielded them in a couple of games, and the scenarios weren't exactly favourable since they required me to move them forward across the map.

My Sisters and Sea Guard did, in the game I fielded them, perform really well, but on the other hand the scenario was favourable in that game. So it's hard to say.

I will check and tweak the cost of ranged units for v0.6 then.

Warriors of Chaos v0.5 is up now, and Wood Elves will be up this weekend. After that, expect a few days for each Forge World list, depending on how much work I have to bring home with me from my real life job

Looks like Hellstriders of Slaanesh are missing a hornblower option in the WoC document.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Looks like Hellstriders of Slaanesh are missing a hornblower option in the WoC document.

Thanks, seems they've missed this options for some time now. Will be added!

Legions of Azgorh and Tamurkhan's Horde has been added, and Wood Elves updated to v0.5.

So played against O&G for the first time. After looking at the points I only have two comments; the spidershrine on the Arachnarok seems undercosted (casts 2 spells a turn!), and savage orcs need a variable costing to account for their 20+ unit size. Below 20 I think they need a reduction too. 5ppm below 20 and 8ppm above seems appropriate. As-is they die really easy (6+/6+ is ~70% chance of death against an attack without any rend) and their offensive power doesn't make up for that. However, this is all IMO, of course, and only has a little game experience to back it up.

Thanks for that, Ninth! I'll use this info when I review the O&G for 0.6. Please report anything else you come across, as the more info we have is better - I hope and think that v0.6 of the lists will be close to balanced for a longer period than just a few weeks and your reports always help!

Thanks for the encouragement Attilla. Actually there are only 3 sections I don't use from the Comp. Full disclosure, I own a game store, so most of my issues are geared towards growing the community.The first is the Allies rule. Allowing allies grows the community. I remember when Apocalypse came out for 40K. Most of the entrenched community did not like that you could use any models in your collection, but the community grew. Then 6th edition 40K hit, and it allowed unbound armies. Again people grumbled, and again the community grew. AOS has an unfolding story in which Sigmar is actively seeking out allies. I think the only 2 sides that shouldn't be in the same army are Order and Chaos. The other two rules are Shooting into melee and Screening modifiers. This is purely a game balance decision. I used to play Dark Elves and Wood Elves in 8th Edition WFB. Shooting in AOS is nowhere near what it once was. I know that there are some exceptions, and I guess if you just set up across from one another and run at each other then the shooting army could be effective. But if you play the scenarios from the book, there are so many ways to get to a shooting line. Simply going through a Baleful Gate can get you there. Also, if you allow Allies, the traditional non-shooting armies can match arrow fire with opponents. I am currently playing a Chaos army. The current synergy that I can create lets me charge or run an extra 4 inches (Bloodstoker+musician), re-roll failed charges (General ability), and the Chaos Lord can Pile in 6 inches (mark of Khorne). So I can literally charge at the latest turn 2 most gun lines. Once missile troops are engaged, they really suck. In the old days, Dwarf gun lines would take you apart. now they can't stand and fire. In the old days, when I got to the dwarf gun line, they pulled out axe and shield or two handed weapons and went mano a mano. Now they try to hit me with the butts of their guns (needing 5+). I think if you add the modifiers you then have to decrease the cost of missile troops. At that point you are juggling game mechanics and really for little gain. Anyway, that's my opinion.

I will copypaste this into the Comp thread instead. Can not read and reply properly before tomorrow. Just so you know.

Heads up that Dwarfs, Empire, Bloodbound, Stormcast, Ogres, Beastmen and Bretonnia have been updated to v0.6.

I believe we are getting ever closer to being able to call this v1.0 soon. Still more testing needed though, and feedback of all kind greatly appreciated as usual

Those are not armies that I play, so I find them to be grossly overpowered at those points costs. A 30-50% increase in ppm across the board should do the trick!

Joking aside, keep up the great work Attilla! A lot of people are having a lot of fun thanks to your efforts, myself included.

50% increase in Nurgle Daemons coming up . Thanks for the encouragement all of you!

Just had one of the best games of sigmar so far using ppc at 1500pts a side, it was Skaven vs Forest Goblins

The lists were so well balanced as it was 1 Warbringer Verminlord, 1 Verminous clawpack inc 40 clan + swords FC, 2x 10 clan + swords, 20 Storm-vermin FC & 3x plaguewind mortars, a Chieftain BSB and 4 Jezzails VS Goblin bigboss on gigantic spider, shaman on aracknorok + catcher web, 2x Night goblin shamans, 17-20(cant rememer) Forest goblin spider riders + bows FC, 35 Night goblin spear's with 4-5 netters FC, 6 Fanatics, 3 trolls and a rock lobber.

was incredible!!! in the end skaven won with the Verminlord, 18 Clan- rats and 2 jezzails left compared to 3 trolls & a shamen for the goblins.

Also how was the points for undead banners worked out? my experience of undead units so far with them is there either not needed because they have not been attacked or the unit has been wiped with battle shock for it to have worked.

And bring back the undeath lore attribute lol

Which scenario did you play?

no scenario unfortunately just a straight pick-up game on a 4x4 board, lots of terrain help alot!

Very minor comment: The Mark of Tzeentch costs 10 points on a Soul Grinder, but it doesn't do anything. There are no abilities in any list that confer any benefit (or target in any way) daemon units with the Tzeentch keyword.

Haven't checked carefully the other marks, although I believe at least Khorne and Nurgle do potentially have an impact.

Huh, never noticed that but you're right, Tzeentch keyword gives no benefit in a daemons army (or at all, for that matter, unless you are also a wizard). Slaanesh does have a benefit from the Keeper of Secrets command ability but I would say its worth less compared to Khorne or Nurgle. Maybe Attilla priced them in anticipation of future releases.

Any plans on trying to get this into army builder?

I see the need to have the cost per model in large units be higher (the 21st to 30th zombie is much better than the first 10), but it makes list building a bear.

At Gencon I asked the guys from Army Builder if they were going to make AOS lists.The guy I was talking to just looked disgusted and said "why?." I think we can put them squarely in the "hater" column. Any Aos lists are going to have to be from some dedicated fan.

Some more games, some more commentary:

-Dwarf Thunderers seem overcosted, I would suggest a 1-2 ppm decrease. Or leave them the same if screening is removed.

-I feel like Stormcast Liberators need an adjustment; basic models seem just slightly overcosted (1-2 ppm decrease might be good) while the weapon upgrades seem undercosted (I would recommend 10 points to give it to a normal guy or 15 to give it to the unit leader).

-I feel similarly about Stormcast Paladins (all variants); I think knocking their ppm down by 2-3 points while increasing the starsoul mace upgrade to 10 points would be good. D3 automatic mortal wounds every single round of combat is extremely powerful.

-Mark of Slaanesh on a daemon prince is rather strong and easily worth 15 points. Certainly more than the 5 it costs now.

-Fiends of Slaanesh are overcosted. I'm still unsure how much, but I am pretty sure they are not worth 55ppm. -1 to hit in close combat is decent for keeping them alive, but their attack power is very inconsistent and not even that great overall. I would say a 10 ppm decrease would be good, but I was using them so I'm assuming a bias; I'll suggest a 5 ppm decrease instead.

-Hellstriders seem a bit off. I think their base cost is fine, but I also think they should be less ppm to add after the initial price (2 ppm less I think). For showing up they are a decent support/harass unit but they really need a lot of models for their soul hunter ability to be worthwhile. Also, the enrapturing banner should probably cost 5 points more; it's quite potent since enemies within 6" of any model in the unit take -1 to hit on shooting and melee.

-I think the Knight-Venator could use a slight points decrease (5-10) because of unreliability on his once-per-game ubershot.

-Knight-Azyros should probably get a slight increase on the grounds that he kinda does it all; a fast mover, resilient, decent melee power, a great synergy ability for ranged units, and an absolutely amazing once-per-game ability. I think an increase of about 10 would be appropriate.

Also, I am noticing a general trend that more elite an army is, the better it tends to do (to a point, obviously). Over all the games I have played, and many more which I have seen, elite armies seem to be getting more than their share of wins. I'm not sure if that is just local metal though so I'd like to hear from others on this.

Hello, I'm Solaris buddy.

First I'd like to echo some of NinthMusketeers feedback. Thunderers, Liberators, Paladins are all slightly overcosted. Daemon Prince with Mark of Slaanesh is in many ways the best variant and the one I personally prefer over the others, I agree that it's cost should be bumped up. I haven't tried the new knights yet but will give feedback when I have.

I came to give feedback on Warriors of Chaos however. The regular warriors are almos certainly overcosted, compare them to liberators who have essentially the same profile yet are cheaper and have their keyword built in rather than having to pay for it. The Liberators are slightly overcosted so the warriors are even more so.

Secondly I realise you have yet to update warriors to 0.6 but I hope that you'll look at Chimera when you do since its very expensive at 300 pts yet it isn't 50% "better" than a giant and certainly not the equal of two dragon ogre shaggoths.

My thanks to everyone who has worked on the PPC, it's a huge step up over other comp systems we've tried.

I played a few games this weekend and watched a few others. I have to agree with Ninth in that Dwarf Gunners aren't that good. I fought Skaven this week and can I just say that Skaven Jezzails are better than pretty much any other artillery unit they have. Hit on 4+, wound on 3+, Re-roll to hits of 1 if they didn't move, but can move 6" if they need to. Rolls of 6's to hit are 2 mortal, otherwise Rend-2 and 2 wounds. WAAY better than a Warp Lightining Cannon or a Doomwheel. 30" range is better than most. My friend ran them in a unit of 10 and annihilated units in one volley. I told him to get 10 more and ditch both his Warp Lightning Cannons! On average a Lighting cannon will roll 3-4 so with 6 shots he may hit with 3. and do 3 damage. 4 Jezzails that don't move hit with 3 (because of re-rolling ones) and do 6, with maybe 2 being Mortal. I don't think they are classified as Warmachines (so no 25% limit), so they can be ramped up to the point that you could have 20 and really wreck somebody.

Thanks everyone for all the input! I've read all of it but will respond to each one tomorrow after work, just typing this so you all know I'm still around!

What size games are people typically playing with PPC, i've done a couple of 1500's but is that a small or medium game?

Hettar wrote:
What size games are people typically playing with PPC, i've done a couple of 1500's but is that a small or medium game?

I've been running 2000 pts. With 2000 pts you get 5-6 heroes a pair of monsters and about 60 regular dudes if you field a warriors of chaos list like I did last time.

1500 pts is also nice but it's harder to fit in the more expensive heroes and monsters.