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What (if any) options do you get if you have a model behind smoke getting shot through the smoke by a model with MSV2.

Dodging on your base PHY or shooting back at -6 (+range, cover and camo).

I hate this tactic, its one of the reasons I don't play much anymore.

Most of the time it's as above.

There are some situational responses:
If the model getting shot has Sixth Sense L2 it does not get the -6 mod for shooting back. No -6 mod within ZoC for Sixth Sense L1.

Popping Zero-V smoke, this is still a BS attack so you still suffer the -6 with a +3 range mod.

The best way to deal with it if you see the combo being setup is position or play to prevent it from impacting the game significantly:
- Kill 1 part of the combo, either the Smoke equipped or MSV2 equipped model. If the Smoke model is a warband, it's possible to ARO the smoke grenade toss (a smart opponent will deploy the smoke in such a way to avoid a FtF ) or send some sort of rambo after one of them (AD troop, infiltrator, impersonator, biker, warband etc.) Sometimes this can't be done on the first turn and you're just gonna have to roll with the punches until the opportunity presents itself.
- Position counters to the combo (MSV2, Sixth Sense L2, direct templates or 4+ Fireteams) where you expect it to be used. Examples would be positioning an MSV2 troop to overlap AROs with your Total Reaction REM or having a link team overwatch where the MSV2 is going to pop out of cover
-Limit the amount of damage the MSV2 unit can do. Not bunching models in LoF in front of it so it can't mow down 3-4 models with a single cloud and avoid placement of models it's particularly effective against in easy access of it (TR REMs and Snipers). About half the time MSV2s are equipped on MI, so it may lack the ability to reposition rapidly with 4-2 Move.

 aldo wrote:
I hate this tactic, its one of the reasons I don't play much anymore.

Any particular reason why? Smoke + MSV2 was nerfed in N3 so it's no longer an unopposed roll for the MSV2 and the unmodded Dodge roll is pretty generous. MSV2 + Smoke is one of the tactics to countering the increased lethality of Assisted Fire TR Remotes and Suppression Fire, especially Camo models in Suppression. It's also probably the most cost effective way to kill a Camo TAG.

I will admit it can be overwhelming in certain instances. Like the Yu Jing Rui Shi's ability to drastically alter Hit modifiers or Qapu Khalqi's low cost Djanbazan/Hafza link.

Yeah old smoke combo was a bit gak but the new one is fine. -6 to shoot back is no worse than TO/ODD which is everywhere

You want to complain about a rule, go bitch about those stupid link team restrictions on long skills. Now *thats* a reason to not play much.

The problem with the -6 for shooting back thru smoke is it's often combined with Camo and Cover for a full -12+. But yeah, Link Teams and Visors to get around the penalties for shooting thru smoke.

Cover is usually negated by your range bonus, and you'd need to deal with that anyway.

There are very few camo+visor models, the only ones that come to mind are the Nisse (faction with no smoke) or the Intruder (but thats nomads, no gak its OP).

I play a heavy reactive game so I know how suck it can be to be smoke shot, but honestly its not a bad mechanic at all, and helps to break up excessive board control (except for Nomad board control obvs)

Oh sure, it's a nice tactic, the problem is when my dear shasvastii face an army based ENTIRELY on it.

And I'm talking Nomads with 2 Intruders, 4 Morlocks, whatever-many Jaguars they can get and some Zero FO aded on top.

That's not nice, and the Haqq version, while less powerful, has Motorbike spam to open the road.

And the ASS version is just another boring thing piled on top of a steamroller of boring things and high-phy mine-dodging link teams.

But hey, Corvus loves Shas, right guys? Right?...

Gosh, that got bitter in the end, didn't it?

Eh, I sympathized until I saw the bit about mines.

Shas is a skew faction, its designed to use the few things its good at to overcome built in weaknesses in other areas and create an experience much like the one your facing - too much of a certain thing for your opponent to handle. If you run a faction like this, and face an army designed to counter your strengths, your going to have a hard time of it.

Plus the forementioned Shas being overall crap doesn't help (nor does your opponent focusing on what is admittedly a rather boring army theme). Them along with Morats and Hassassins need a serious overhaul. But 3 out of like 20 is pretty good balance I think

I would suggest that quitting because visor/smoke beats shas isn't really the right call. If you can't handle it, you'd be better off switching to vanilla which has the tools to handle whatever they're throwing your way. Use that two list setup that they use in ITS and when one of the lists is smoke/visor spam then use your list which doesn't care, though admittedly that is hard with this faction.

Well.. I see you're using Shasvastii. Kinda screwed unless you can get guys around those MSV2 models. If you had access to a Hacking Device plus, White Noise would be ideal.

Best bet seems to be infiltrators and or impersonators closing on the MSV2 troops and tying them up or eliminating them before they can do too much damage.
Other than that... dodge into cover

Keep in mind, Shasvastii are being moved to Acheron's Fall book from HSN3. They are getting a redesign for the whole Sectorial to bring them up to speed with the N3 balance. So you may be receiving counters to MSV and other problems they have.
They will be legal to play, but will get a facelift then.

If you deployed first (so don't know you're facing smoke+MSV2) then you're presumably going first:
Any Intruder that reveals to Discover can be shot in the face unopposed.
Any Intruder that reveals to shoot a previously-discovered trooper isn't getting Surprise Shot and can be despatched by your own troopers uncloaking.
If the Nomad player manages to get smoke down before revealing any of the Intruders, your Camo/TO Camo markers can still do move-move Orders from Total Cover to Total Cover and the worst that can happen is that the Intruder Discovers them.
If one of the Morlocks throws smoke directly on an Intruder and the Intruder reveals to shoot someone, laugh as your Speculo Killer walks into the handy smoke cloud and murders the Intruder without anyone but another Intruder being able to shoot into the smoke.
Remember that MSVs don't help at all against Impersonation.
It's perfectly valid to have a Shrouded etc. go on a sacrificial run to place a Mine in front of an Intruder. Now you can move your markers around in front of the Intruder and dare them to react to shoot or discover instead of trying to Dodge on a modified PH8.

If you're going second you're presumably deploying second so will be aware of the large amounts of smoke and probable Intruders:
Deploy so that your camo markers can't easily be seen from the enemy Deployment Zone. With a 4-2 MOV and limited Orders (Intruders are expensive and Morlocks are Irregular) it can be hard to get the Intruders up into position.
Remember that cover modifiers apply to Discover rolls, so most of the time even an Intruder will only be on WIP11 to Discover and won't be able to try again that turn.

Can you ARO a Direct Template Weapon when getting shot through smoke? Does it just hit or are there penalties?

rollawaythestone wrote:
Can you ARO a Direct Template Weapon when getting shot through smoke? Does it just hit or are there penalties?

You can dodge DTWs at -3 if you don't have los I believe.

rollawaythestone wrote:
Can you ARO a Direct Template Weapon when getting shot through smoke? Does it just hit or are there penalties?

-You can declare ARO BS attack with a direct template as a response to being shot through smoke. It's an unpenalized auto-hit, assuming the template is in range.

-If you're being shot by a DT through smoke, you can either ARO with Dodge at -3 PH to avoid, BS attack at -6 BS with a non-Direct Template weapon or BS attack with a DT template as above.

-If the DT is being shot with the Intuitive attack skill, the unmodded WIP roll of the shooting model is used for face to face against the -3 PH Dodge or -6 BS attack.

Since this question was just asked on our local Facebook group, does all the same rules apply for a model shooting thru White Noise at a model wearing a visor?

 AduroT wrote:
Since this question was just asked on our local Facebook group, does all the same rules apply for a model shooting thru White Noise at a model wearing a visor?

Yes they can, as laid out in the White Noise State.

 aldo wrote:
Oh sure, it's a nice tactic, the problem is when my dear shasvastii face an army based ENTIRELY on it.

And I'm talking Nomads with 2 Intruders, 4 Morlocks, whatever-many Jaguars they can get and some Zero FO aded on top.

LMAO what an awful list! You should tell your friend to stop ruining the Nomads reputation for the rest of us!
Seriously though, unless he's dead set on winning some kind of ITS league, wouldn't he mind changing his army theme a bit?
I'm only using 5-6 camo tokens spam if I feel like a douche that needs to ruin the local ITS tourney day.

Why does camouflage or mimetism add to the MOD? I mean the enemy trooper can't see anything already so what is the effect of the camouflage? That just makes no sense to me...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Besides... according to the latest FAQ a trooper gets negative MODs on dodging if the LOF passes low/poor visibility zones, why not the same mechanism like that of the zero visibility zone - a normal dodge?

It's strictly because for now nothing in the rules makes you ignore it.
It's as silly as my VMS link team lowering my opponent's DDO penalty behind a White Noise zone
(a nomad player I know complains about this because he thought he had an unavoidable plan to inflict -6 to me (from no visibility or DDO))

Ok, after a little bit reasoning I think there could be the intent to "force" the enemy to do a dodge instead of shooting back, similar to the ruling with DTWs.

It seems your opponent uses Reverend Moiras to shoot at you

Seems a very forgiving rule to me.
If you don't have a visor you wont be an ARO threat any longer with smoke blocking your view so why not dodge (on the same odds you would have had they not spent an order to place smoke)

Smoke is more about maneuver/protecting the active model from ARO rather than helping it kill models

Its a strong counter to Suppression/Total reaction/Link teams and overlapping AROs