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Not to stir the pot, but I'm new to Daemonkin and was wondering if the community has come to an agreement regarding Daemonkin FMC changing flight modes the turn they DS?

No .

RaW is a clear no. RaI is a clear no. RaDPWTTB is a yes (Rules as Daemonkin Players Want Them To Be). Apparently because they arrive before the movement phase just like all other reserves they are special snowflakes, because doing something at the same time as everyone else makes you different.

As you can see...no consensus

 FlingitNow wrote:
RaW is a clear no. RaI is a clear no. RaDPWTTB is a yes (Rules as Daemonkin Players Want Them To Be). Apparently because they arrive before the movement phase just like all other reserves they are special snowflakes, because doing something at the same time as everyone else makes you different.

Debates about rules like this would probably be resolved a lot more amicably if either side could resist the urge to, errr, fling sarcasm and insults at the other...

No, a consensus on this matter is wishful thinking I'm afraid. Yes, you can do it but be prepared for people trying to argue against it. To avoid drama it's the sort of thing best discussed with your opponent before the game.

Essentially the clear rules which are indisputable are that BT summoned FMCs and DS reserves happen at the same time (start of the turn). So if you allow normal FMCs to change flight mode when they DS then there is no reason BT summoned ones can't. However if you follow the rules for normal DSing FMCs then you have to follow them for BT summoned ones too. Obviously some Daemonkin players desperately want their codex to be stronger than it is so are happy to break the rules to gain an advantage. It is upto you whether you want to do that or not.

Ah, Flings delightful definition of indisputable.

Indisputable as in the rules clearly state when arriving happens...

The deep strike rules clearly state they arrive in the movement phase, so I guess you are right there... But I have a feeling you will dispute that hence, not indisputable.

But no, to answer the OP no consensus on dakka. Talk to your group about it. Any particular rules clarifications feel free to pm me. (Tbh, not suredaemonnkin summoning is worth the stress

Lies don't help your argument. DS rules make no mention of when you arrive as you well know.

Guys... I think the lack of consensus is abundantly clear by now. This thread isn't about how it works, so feel free to let it go

The ATC ruled they can select their flight mode and the ITC is currently polling it.

ATC ruled the way they did because their position was the Daemonkin does not specify that the unit arrives from Reserves, therefore the "Swooping" requirement does not apply. The said you just have to declare which mode at the start of the movement phase as normal.

The Axe of Ruin would still allowed for switching flight modes if it triggered during your opponents turn right?

Yes it would. But you'll mostly want to trigger that with blpod tithe anyway causing the same issue.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Lies don't help your argument. DS rules make no mention of when you arrive as you well know.

Deep Strike rules imply coming in from Reserves, which is part of the Movement Phase.

It should be noted that Conjuring and Summoning are not the same thing, and that a Summoned Daemonkin Bloodthirster no more comes from Reserves than a Spawn or Daemon Prince being placed via Chaos Marine Boon.

Being obstinate doesn't make one right either.

Deep Strike rules imply coming in from Reserves, which is part of the Movement Phase. 

Nope arriving from reserves happen at the start of the turn. Check the reserves rules.

No there is no consensus, and i doubt there ever will be. Both sides have rules to back their view up

 FlingitNow wrote:

Deep Strike rules imply coming in from Reserves, which is part of the Movement Phase. 

Nope arriving from reserves happen at the start of the turn. Check the reserves rules.

No, rolling for Reserves happens at the start of the turn. Arriving is never stated as being before the Movement Phase. After all, one of the caveats is that you "move any arriving Reserves, before any other units can move", isn't it?

If certain users can't be polite then moderation acti9n will be taken. Here's a hint, saying "lalala you're lying" is not a polite way to argue

When the Unit Arrives from Reserves is very difficult to pin-point on the timeline, which is why different interpenetration easily exist. We have a Rule called 'Arriving from Reserves' which begins by stating: At the start of your second turn... and ends by stating Note that you must first roll for all Reserves, and then move any arriving Reserves, before any other units can move. The moment the turn starts and the moment other Units can move are two completely different points in the timeline, with quite a lot that can occur in between. This means all we can say for certain is the Units Move onto the board sometime after the very start of the Start of Turn sub-phase, but before the middle of the Movement Phase. Expect people to point to the first point if they believe it is during the Start of Turn Sub-phase and the last point if they believe it is during the Movement Phase.

This is just an example of Hack-and-Paste that Game Workshop does, caring not if the old Rule actually fits the new Rule-set....
In previous Editions the Start of Turn occurred during the Movement Phase, it was not it's own sub-phase like it is now, so the above wording made a lot more sense then.

I would say no consensus, look at 2 recent tournament faqs

ATC ruled that not coming from deep strike reserves meant you can choose the flight mode.

ITC ruled simply kdk summoned flying units must arrive as swooping

You can find both tourney faqs with a quick google search.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
http://whatc.org/PDFs/2015ATCFAQPDF.pdf

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1NkfW26mcJHaqDKlaZyA3PB-prM0k17-DuTifGv2mOG4/pub

Charistoph wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
Lies don't help your argument. DS rules make no mention of when you arrive as you well know.

Deep Strike rules imply coming in from Reserves, which is part of the Movement Phase.

It should be noted that Conjuring and Summoning are not the same thing, and that a Summoned Daemonkin Bloodthirster no more comes from Reserves than a Spawn or Daemon Prince being placed via Chaos Marine Boon.

well a spawn/daemon prince from the boon table are replacing models that are already on the table

Charistoph wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

Deep Strike rules imply coming in from Reserves, which is part of the Movement Phase. 

Nope arriving from reserves happen at the start of the turn. Check the reserves rules.

No, rolling for Reserves happens at the start of the turn. Arriving is never stated as being before the Movement Phase. After all, one of the caveats is that you "move any arriving Reserves, before any other units can move", isn't it?

Arriving is part of the start of the turn according to the rules. Check what happens if you don't roll a 3+ on turn 3. Also check where the arriving from reserves rules say they occur. They say you roll at the start of the turn then you arrive. Nothing there tells you to change to the movement phase for arrival so you can't.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

JinxDragon wrote:
When the Unit Arrives from Reserves is very difficult to pin-point on the timeline, which is why different interpenetration easily exist. We have a Rule called 'Arriving from Reserves' which begins by stating: At the start of your second turn... and ends by stating Note that you must first roll for all Reserves, and then move any arriving Reserves, before any other units can move. The moment the turn starts and the moment other Units can move are two completely different points in the timeline, with quite a lot that can occur in between. This means all we can say for certain is the Units Move onto the board sometime after the very start of the Start of Turn sub-phase, but before the middle of the Movement Phase. Expect people to point to the first point if they believe it is during the Start of Turn Sub-phase and the last point if they believe it is during the Movement Phase.

This is just an example of Hack-and-Paste that Game Workshop does, caring not if the old Rule actually fits the new Rule-set....
In previous Editions the Start of Turn occurred during the Movement Phase, it was not it's own sub-phase like it is now, so the above wording made a lot more sense then.

Except of course if you fail your reserve roll on turn 3... Arrivalis absolutely part of start of the turn this is not up for debate unless you believe the rulebook is wrong.

Not sure if this has been pointed out because I haven't read up on this issue, but.

It's states under flying Mounstrous creatures that units arriving by deepstrike always count as swooping.
It states under flying Mounstrous creatures at the start of it's "Move" it can change flight modes.
It states under Deepstrike, that a unit that deepstrike cannot move any further for the turn.

So it's either, units that arrive by deepstrike always count a swooping, and we leave it there
Or
Because you cannot move after deepstrike, you can never choose your flight mode because you can only do so at the start of your move.

"But deepstrike counts as my move, so I get the choose then." you say?
No. You would be breaking the requirement for alway swooping when arriving by deepstrike.

 IXLoiero95XI wrote:
Not sure if this has been pointed out because I haven't read up on this issue, but.

It's states under flying Mounstrous creatures that units arriving by deepstrike always count as swooping.
It states under flying Mounstrous creatures at the start of it's "Move" it can change flight modes.
It states under Deepstrike, that a unit that deepstrike cannot move any further for the turn.

So it's either, units that arrive by deepstrike always count a swooping, and we leave it there
Or
Because you cannot move after deepstrike, you can never choose your flight mode because you can only do so at the start of your move.

"But deepstrike counts as my move, so I get the choose then." you say?
No. You would be breaking the requirement for alway swooping when arriving by deepstrike.

But those are rules. People who want their BT summoned FMCs to glide don't believe in rules. They believe if they close their eyes and put their hands over theirs ears and wish it enough they are allowed to change the rules to give themselves an unfair advantage.

Or, like all fmc's, you Run, which is a move. As you never Declared a flight mode - you count as swooping, but do not do so via a declaration - you may then Declare you are gliding.

 FlingitNow wrote:
People who want their BT summoned FMCs to glide don't believe in rules. They believe if they close their eyes and put their hands over theirs ears and wish it enough they are allowed to change the rules to give themselves an unfair advantage.

As mature and constructive as ever I see. Is it not perhaps the case that they just have a different interpretation of the rules than yourself?