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Made in gb
Fresh-Faced New User





Ok, this came up in another thread but to avoid adding in additional rules situations lets simplify the issue and discuss this as an example.

A Shaolin monk stands 3" away from a fusilier with combi and within the fusilier's LoF
He declares a short move skill and moves into B2B with the fusilier becoming engaged.
Given the Monk has stealth, what AROs are available to the fusilier?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/02/04 09:03:33


 
   
Made in us
Martial Arts Fiday






Nashville, TN

Stealth would do nothing for the monk in your scenario. It only helps when you are in ZoC but out of LoF.

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Made in gb
Fresh-Faced New User





That is what I thought.

But it came up in another thread and I became curious about this.

http://wiki.infinitythegame.com/en/Stealth

The last bullet point:

"If the Movement of the trooper with Stealth ends in base to base contact with an enemy and declares any non-Movement Short Skill, then the enemy can only declare CC Attack, Dodge, Reset, or those Skills that can be used in Engaged state."

Now if this refers to a model out of LoF to the target how, in this instance, is stealth any different from the normal situation.

The monk engages the fusilier from out of LoF, what are the Fusilier's ARO options?

A Zanshi engages the fusilier from out of LoF, what are the Fusilier's ARO options?

 
   
Made in de
Hacking Interventor





Germany

According to the FAQ and this thread in the international Infinity Forum bullet point #2 has to be met to get the benefits of Stealth

Stealth

Stealt does not work in LoF to the target (Note of editor: Duh)

If either of the two Short Skills of the Order spent by the trooper with Stealth is not a Short Movement Skill, the enemies can react normally. So if you – for example – shoot an enemy model from outside LoF and then enter its ZoC, the enemy model will get an ARO. Palanka

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






It's actually not the forum posts, but rather than example given, that indicates that your interpretation is correct.

CB should have addressed this in the official FAQ. As is, the example and interpretation clearly contradict Bullet #4 in the rulebook's description of Stealth. It should be reworded for clarity with the caveat, "...without entering the opponent's LOF..." The way that the "Effects: " are presented in the rulebook is not hierarchical or sequential, but rather as bullet points, indicates that they are separate effects for separate situations.

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Made in us
The Conquerer






Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

So to be perfectly clear, is this how the following situations work?


Airborne ranger is behind an enemy model and in its ZoC. As long as the ranger doesn't do any non-movement short skills the enemy model never gets any AROs?

What if I entered base contact and then idled? Does the enemy model become engaged with no option to ARO?


Hardcase is behind an enemy model and in his ZoC. He shoots his Bow, which is Silent.

1) The bow misses. I have been told the enemy model gets no ARO.

2) Bow hits and kills. Enemy model cannot react to their buddy dying as the weapon is silent? Model hit and killed gets no AROs.

3) Bow hits but does not kill. Enemy model may now ARO as normal.

Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

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Made in de
Hacking Interventor





Germany

NuggzTheNinja wrote:It's actually not the forum posts, but rather than example given, that indicates that your interpretation is correct.

CB should have addressed this in the official FAQ. As is, the example and interpretation clearly contradict Bullet #4 in the rulebook's description of Stealth. It should be reworded for clarity with the caveat, "...without entering the opponent's LOF..." The way that the "Effects: " are presented in the rulebook is not hierarchical or sequential, but rather as bullet points, indicates that they are separate effects for separate situations.

Another quote from the Infinity Wiki:
Figures engaged in CC can draw a 360˚ LoF, but only to whatever they are in base contact with.
I think this shows the sense of that last paragraph of Stealth: it would basically be useless if you can sneak through anyones not LOF covered ZOC just to get shot by your prey when engaging...

Grey Templar wrote:So to be perfectly clear, is this how the following situations work?


Airborne ranger is behind an enemy model and in its ZoC. As long as the ranger doesn't do any non-movement short skills the enemy model never gets any AROs?

What if I entered base contact and then idled? Does the enemy model become engaged with no option to ARO?

I think so your Ranger would be engaged but since idle is a movement skill there'll be no ARO. and thus is in the LOF of his enemy as stated before.


Grey Templar wrote:Hardcase is behind an enemy model and in his ZoC. He shoots his Bow, which is Silent.

1) The bow misses. I have been told the enemy model gets no ARO.

2) Bow hits and kills. Enemy model cannot react to their buddy dying as the weapon is silent? Model hit and killed gets no AROs.

3) Bow hits but does not kill. Enemy model may now ARO as normal.


1) You shot at your target so said target survived your attack which means it can try change facing
2) As long s no other model can draw LOF to you there is no chance to ARO
3) Yes

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/02/04 22:19:49


   
Made in us
The Conquerer






Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

Ok, I just found the actual silent rule(damn the infinity rulebook is hard to navigate) and found the answer to the first situation.

Now with the Ranger moving into base contact, I assume this is why knives have the silent rule as well? If I kill with the knife and nobody has LoF to the ranger then no AROs.

Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! 
   
Made in de
Hacking Interventor





Germany

Exactly, the Ranger will propably kill that poor guy who still has a CC attack and no one will notice

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/02/04 18:50:59


   
Made in us
Zealous Sin-Eater



Chico, CA

 Grey Templar wrote:
Ok, I just found the actual silent rule(damn the infinity rulebook is hard to navigate) and found the answer to the first situation.

Now with the Ranger moving into base contact, I assume this is why knives have the silent rule as well? If I kill with the knife and nobody has LoF to the ranger then no AROs.


Only the guy your in base to base with will get to react if no body else has LoF.

P.S. Idle while in base to base would give a ARO. Stealth only work out of LoF, while Engaged you get 360 LoF. Shooting is always default choice for a reason.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/02/04 22:09:24


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Made in de
Hacking Interventor





Germany

You're right! I totally forgot what I mentioned a few paragraphs before

   
Made in us
The Conquerer






Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

Noir wrote:
 Grey Templar wrote:
Ok, I just found the actual silent rule(damn the infinity rulebook is hard to navigate) and found the answer to the first situation.

Now with the Ranger moving into base contact, I assume this is why knives have the silent rule as well? If I kill with the knife and nobody has LoF to the ranger then no AROs.


Only the guy your in base to base with will get to react if no body else has LoF.

P.S. Idle while in base to base would give a ARO. Stealth only work out of LoF, while Engaged you get 360 LoF. Shooting is always default choice for a reason.


Ok, so you better use only your first short skill to get into btb and then gank the guy.

Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! 
   
Made in gb
Fresh-Faced New User





I might flag this up with IJW in the hope that the Wiki might get refined.

Unseen models moving in ZoC but out of LoF don't generate AROS

I think bullet points 3&4 can cause confusion because in fact they are basically repeating the same thing twice:

If you declare anything other than a short movement skill in the above situation, whether engaged or not, you generate AROs normally

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/02/05 08:53:00


 
   
Made in de
Hacking Interventor





Germany

Bulletpoint #4 still limits the ARO to only CC-AROs that's because normally the victim can defend itself also with a BS attack e.g. with a DTW

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/02/05 11:26:28


   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






 Tristan228 wrote:
Bulletpoint #4 still limits the ARO to only CC-AROs that's because normally the victim can defend itself also with a BS attack e.g. with a DTW


It limits ARO to CC-AROs if the Stealth model is behind the Reactive model. Wouldn't the Reactive model be limited to CC-AROs against a model entering B2B from outside his LOF anyway?

This is why there is so much confusion - RAW, the last bullet point suggests that the Reactive model would be limited if the model with Stealth approached from inside the Reactive model's LOF. RAI, it seems that the model with Stealth has to stay out of LOF, and it's unclear as to how Stealth provides any benefit in that case that warrants an extra bullet point.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/02/05 16:49:14


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Made in gb
Dakka Veteran




Devon, UK

Stealth doesn't work if any part of the move is within LoF, with an exception for entering BtB while outside LoF.

So you can walk up to someone from behind, enter base contact and still have Stealth apply, but if you try that while in LoF Stealth won't work.

Note that as Idle is a Short Movement Skill you could declare Move-Idle when entering base contact outside LoF and be OK. Even if that wasn't possible, you could do a Move-Move and move into base contact with the second Move for the exact same effect.
   
Made in us
Martial Arts Fiday






Nashville, TN

Keep in mind that a model can benefit from Stealth without entering into b2b.

"Holy Sh*&, you've opened my eyes and changed my mind about this topic, thanks Dakka OT!"

-Nobody Ever

Proverbs 18:2

"CHEESE!" is the battlecry of the ill-prepared.

 warboss wrote:

GW didn't mean to hit your wallet and I know they love you, baby. I'm sure they won't do it again so it's ok to purchase and make up.


Albatross wrote:I think SlaveToDorkness just became my new hero.

EmilCrane wrote:Finecast is the new Matt Ward.

Don't mess with the Blade and Bolter! 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






 IJW wrote:
Stealth doesn't work if any part of the move is within LoF, with an exception for entering BtB while outside LoF.

So you can walk up to someone from behind, enter base contact and still have Stealth apply, but if you try that while in LoF Stealth won't work.

Note that as Idle is a Short Movement Skill you could declare Move-Idle when entering base contact outside LoF and be OK. Even if that wasn't possible, you could do a Move-Move and move into base contact with the second Move for the exact same effect.


It's not accurate to say that Stealth 'doesn't work if any part of the move is within LOF' as that would clearly abrogate the entire passage about Cautious Movement (which allows a model to cross an enemy's LOF without provoking AROs).




Tier 1 is the new Tactical.

My IDF-Themed Guard Army P&M Blog:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/355940.page 
   
Made in de
Hacking Interventor





Germany

NuggzTheNinja wrote:
 Tristan228 wrote:
Bulletpoint #4 still limits the ARO to only CC-AROs that's because normally the victim can defend itself also with a BS attack e.g. with a DTW


It limits ARO to CC-AROs if the Stealth model is behind the Reactive model. Wouldn't the Reactive model be limited to CC-AROs against a model entering B2B from outside his LOF anyway?

This is why there is so much confusion - RAW, the last bullet point suggests that the Reactive model would be limited if the model with Stealth approached from inside the Reactive model's LOF. RAI, it seems that the model with Stealth has to stay out of LOF, and it's unclear as to how Stealth provides any benefit in that case that warrants an extra bullet point.


Looks strange to quote myself:

Tristan228 wrote:
Another quote from the Infinity Wiki:
Figures engaged in CC can draw a 360˚ LoF, but only to whatever they are in base contact with.
I think this shows the sense of that last paragraph of Stealth: it would basically be useless if you can sneak through anyones not LOF covered ZOC just to get shot by your prey when engaging...

That sentence is my main reason why I question IJW's opinion about loitering around in BTB without causing any AROs.

   
Made in gb
Fresh-Faced New User





 Tristan228 wrote:
Bulletpoint #4 still limits the ARO to only CC-AROs that's because normally the victim can defend itself also with a BS attack e.g. with a DTW


Is this the case? I thought even a model without stealth entering B2B from out of LoF would only generate CC ARO's due to the target only having LoF once in the engaged state.

 
   
Made in de
Hacking Interventor





Germany

I couldn't find anything proving me wrong and the Rulebook/Wiki states
CC plus Movement Sequence
Close Combat typically takes place immediately after a Movement. This means the most common CC sequence is as follows:

An active trooper declares, using the first Short Skill of his Order, that he will Move into base to base contact with an enemy.
Said enemy declares an ARO, usually either BS Attack or CC Attack, but it might also be a Dodge (or Reset), a Hacking Program (if available), or any Special Skill usable in this situation.
The active trooper declares the second Short Skill of his Order, which might be any of the above mentioned: BS Attack, CC Attack, Dodge (or Reset), a Hacking Program (if available) or an eligible Special Skill.
Then, both the active trooper and the target in ARO make their Face to Face Rolls (unless one of the Skills used indicates otherwise).
. In my opinion this actually gives said Paragraph #4 it's reason to exist.

   
 
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