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Ah the double edge sword. You are correct if I want to know more, I should have to pony up. Just like if I want to read the Star Wars books in the other reality now. Thing is, they are reasonably priced. The $100 books in my opinion are not reasonably priced or worth it. So yes I should pony up, I don't disagree with you at all, but GW did fail. Did I ever say those books should be free? No. GW failed in their pricing. I am sure a lot of us would have bought those $100 books if they were priced $40 or less. (will not go into worth right now, but we can if it helps the discussion.)
Also since GW priced me out from buying their books, they have kept me from caring from their fluff. Again, it's GW responsibility to get me interested to buy their products. All they are doing is keeping me away from it. Now I did buy thier Grand Alliance books. You would have thought this was the PERFECT time to get people hooked on the AoS fluff. Again another fail. Why? Because of same old GW philosophy squeeze as much money as you can from the people. Heaven forbid GW actually charged a fair price or HELL even a cheap price for their books so people would be interested in their fluff. You would think if people got interested in their fluff they would want to buy more just like what happened to 40K.
Yes, yes, I know. GW is a company to make money. Thing is you don't have to squeeze every penny from a person to do so. Again, it's GW own fault I think and many others would think GW would charge us the air we breath if they could when in their stores. GW could have broken that image. They choose not to do so.
GW wants to sell minis, then they need me to get interested into buying their product. I loved Battletech. one of the reasons why I loved the fluff was when I BOUGHT the books they were reasonably priced. So I got into their fluff, I bought more of their stuff. GW priced their books where people don't buy, so not as interested in their products. So who is to blame? Look I don't care if I get into AoS fluff. It's garbage in my opinion. Only GW can change it. If they don't want to change it, fine, but don't blame the people when they don't buy because they can't find interest in it.
I want to state, at this point, that whether you have the financials to buy gw stuff or not as well as the reason behind the pricing of AoS books are of no interest to me whatsoever. You made some broad statements concerning a setting that you admitted you have no knowledge of. Your displeasure of the pricing of gw books and your lack of desire to know more about the setting removes the points over I'm willing to have a discussion. You are ofcourse free to post your initial impressions of the setting, to not exhibit any interest in it and I will certainly not blame you for that as it is your time and you decide what to do with it. I won't waste my time however trying to fill you in a setting that you despise. I won't derail the thread any more into this direction and for the sake of fairness expect no more answers from me.
Who says I despise? If I despised it or hated it I wouldn't be here. Hypocritical of me then if that was the case. All I say is IN MY OPINION it's not good. There is still enough good in Age of Sigmar to keep me interested in it.
My point in all this is, it's up to Games-Workshop to get me interested. I said numerous times now GW failed in doing so. I even gave explanations and reasons why GW failed in my eyes. No where am I saying ANYONE is wrong and they have to view it as I do. (If I did please show me so I can apologize for that.)
It all started as why AoS is not doing so well or I should say when AoS came out why it didn't do so well. So I gave my explanation as to why AoS is not doing so well when it started for ME. For AoS to do succeed, it's up to GW to do that, not us as customers to make AoS succeed. So I was showing how GW failed for them to capture me to get into AoS from the beginning. Isn't that one of the topics were? AoS didn't to well in the begging but is doing good now. So to say how they failed in the beginning would be a good way of not repeating the same mistakes so AoS can still become better and more popular.
So I am not sure why people are getting upset over this? Am I harping on GW? No. I gave legitimate answers and examples. Did I attack anyone? No. (again please show me if that is the case.) Do I want AoS to fail? No I don't. I just thought I was part of a discussion. What am I saying that is so wrong now?
Agies Grimm:The "Learn to play, bro" mentality is mostly just a way for someone to try to shame you by implying that their metaphorical nerd-wiener is bigger than yours. Which, ironically, I think nerds do even more vehemently than jocks.
Everything is made up and the points don't matter. 40K or Who's Line is it Anyway?
Auticus wrote: Or in summation: its ok to exploit shoddy points because those are rules and gamers exist to find rules loopholes (they are still "legal"), but if the same force can be composed without structure, it emotionally feels "wrong".
rothrich wrote: What are these $100 books people are talking about? Grand order books are $16 each or $100 for all of them.
$90 Canadian (why I have an American flag I am not sure) + 15% tax I just round it off to $100.
Looking forward to this General Book, and I really hope it turns out well, because I would love to have some people to game with in AoS. So here is hoping I can show them this book and they won't give AoS a look at least. Don't buy use my stuff what I have and then we can game.
Agies Grimm:The "Learn to play, bro" mentality is mostly just a way for someone to try to shame you by implying that their metaphorical nerd-wiener is bigger than yours. Which, ironically, I think nerds do even more vehemently than jocks.
Everything is made up and the points don't matter. 40K or Who's Line is it Anyway?
Auticus wrote: Or in summation: its ok to exploit shoddy points because those are rules and gamers exist to find rules loopholes (they are still "legal"), but if the same force can be composed without structure, it emotionally feels "wrong".
Davor wrote: ... (why I have an American flag I am not sure)...
Contact one of the mods and they can manually set your flag to the appropriate location.
'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'
- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
Yeah the rules are great. Especially when combined with one of the comp packs. I don't get too much into the ongoing narrative but still really enjoy the game and the hobby side of it too.
Bye bye Dakkadakka, happy hobbying! I really enjoyed my time on here. Opinions were always my own :-)
The thing that appeals to me about the grand narrative of the setting is that it's overall much more optomisitic than the 'You're all going to die in the next week or two' that WFB and 40k have going on. The 'good guys', or at least the forces of Order, are united and on the offensive, pushing back the taint of chaos and reclaiming their lands. It's not so much 'two minutes to midnight', it's the dawn of a new age.
There's also the potential for some massive shakeups down the line. Bring back Slaneesh, see how that kicks things off within the pantheon of Chaos. Have one of the factions under Sigmar slowly start to worship their own Gods, not necessary Chaos but not Sigmar himself. Have a new Realm appear, or an existing one vanish or change dramatically...
There's a lot they can do on this grand, mythic scale, while also leaving so much room to tell your own stories in your army's personal narrative.
Paradigm wrote: There's a lot they can do on this grand, mythic scale, while also leaving so much room to tell your own stories in your army's personal narrative.
The fact that AoS is only told in grand, mythic scale is another one of the setting's big problems. Contrast is an important tool. Throwing it out is foolish.
Paradigm wrote: There's a lot they can do on this grand, mythic scale, while also leaving so much room to tell your own stories in your army's personal narrative.
The fact that AoS is only told in grand, mythic scale is another one of the setting's big problems. Contrast is an important tool. Throwing it out is foolish.
I'm happy to be corrected, but I can't think of an equivalent example from WFB where this doesn't apply?
We've had every level of action in AoS so far, from deity to army to group to individual.
I may have misunderstood.
Paradigm wrote: There's a lot they can do on this grand, mythic scale, while also leaving so much room to tell your own stories in your army's personal narrative.
The fact that AoS is only told in grand, mythic scale is another one of the setting's big problems. Contrast is an important tool. Throwing it out is foolish.
I'm happy to be corrected, but I can't think of an equivalent example from WFB where this doesn't apply?
We've had every level of action in AoS so far, from deity to army to group to individual.
I may have misunderstood.
If someone has only read the campaign books then it would be pretty reasonable to see AoS as only being told in a mythic scale. The smaller-scale stuff is in the novels. But as you said, the same was true of WHFB so I don't see that as having changed.
Paradigm wrote: There is a lot more scope for the weird and wacky than in the Old World,
One of AoS' biggest failures as a setting, in fact, is that it has never capitalized on this in any real way.
Now this I completely disagree with. Have you read the campaign books? Have you looked at some of the maps? Quest for Ghal Maraz has the Stormcast fighting on an ocean of silver (while it's melting no less) in their quest to track down a teleporting fortress... and that's just the first campaign book. As for models, we have the Fyreslayers release of near-naked Dwarves given supernatural might by the magical runes hammered directly into their skin who tunnel by controlling magma and have guns which shoot globs of lava.
To add some detail concerning the wacky stuff. Consider the following double page image:
Spoiler:
On this image we can find:
1. The hand of a sleeping titan which is a primal beast of godlike nature - the father of the giants.
2. Monstrous skaven machine-cities drilling the earth.
3. A ring of land suspended mid-air with parts that represent both year seasons and the cycle of life.
4. An enormous stairwell linking the aforementioned ring with the land below
5. A magical sun-vortex and the tentacles of a monstrous being in the background.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/05/24 16:53:44
CoreCommander wrote: To add some detail concerning the wacky stuff. Consider the following double page image:
Spoiler:
On this image we can find:
1. The hand of a sleeping titan which is a primal beast of godlike nature - the father of the giants.
2. Monstrous skaven machine-cities drilling the earth.
3. A ring of land suspended mid-air with parts that represent both year seasons and the cycle of life.
4. An enormous stairwell linking the aforementioned ring with the land below
5. A magical sun-vortex and the tentacles of a monstrous being in the background.
The wacky stuff was cool in realms of chaos, codex daemons, and warhammer armiesaemons, but as the standard setting...no, not cool at all.
From what I've heard from some people is that the Generals handbook that it's going to be around €20,- and comes around 23 of juli. Heard from some sources that went to the european managers meeting.
If it's true... I'll be delightfully suprised. It might help AoS further.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/05/25 01:26:11
Poor ignorant guardsmen, it be but one of many of the great miracles of the Emperor! The Emperor is magic, like Harry Potter, but more magic! A most real and true SPACE WIZARD! And for the last time... I'm not a space plumber.
auticus wrote: I like the over the top heavy metal album setting. I've waited for something like this for the past 20 years.
Did you see Chronopia or Keltos? those might have seriously scratched that itch...Chronopia has great fluff (and great rules too) but its out of print.
auticus wrote: I have not seen those. Unfortunately though if its not something a lot of people play, its very difficult to play those out of the way games.
Chronopia was released circa 1997 while Celtos was released circa 2002. Both have seen their heydays come and go long ago.
'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'
- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
auticus wrote: I have not seen those. Unfortunately though if its not something a lot of people play, its very difficult to play those out of the way games.
Chronopia was released circa 1997 while Celtos was released circa 2002. Both have seen their heydays come and go long ago.
yeah celtos was a follow on kinda the way void was to warzone. Though celtos barely got off the ground.
I really like the over-the-top setting of the Mortal Realms - it has more in common with Hiernonymus Bosch or Goya than it does with the standard Tolkienesque fantasy setting. I understand that it's not quite everyone's cup of tea, but my only complaint about it is that it's quite difficult to recreate those more surrealistic elements of the geography on the tabletop (although the battleplans try to reflect it I suppose).
Adding points will bring a few back but the majority will still avoid GW like the plague, they shattered their own fan base and alot of people feel betrayed.
No amount of effort will make AoS popular as long as prices remain so high that's the number one problem.
When so many other systems let you build an army for under £100 AoS is an incredibly hard sell, for £63 I got a 1500 fow army for under £100 I could get 1k of bolt action.
You can fix the game but if it's models are too expensive people will go elsewhere.
Around £100 could easily get you a working AoS army. As an example, at GW RRP:
- Start Collecting: Slave To Darkness (12 Warriors of Chaos, 1 Chariot, 1 Sorcerer, 5x Chaos Knights)- £50
- Chaos Marauders (20 models)- £23
- Chaos Lord on Manticore- £32.50
Total: £105.50, a good sized army (45 models, including a good mix of unit types).
Go to somewhere like Darksphere and with the money you save, you can throw in a Chaos Warshrine as well to give the army big a centrepiece model, or some Demons to summon.
GW models are still expensive, but AoS drastically reduced the cost of entry, through the freely available rules and the fact that you no longer need to buy any set at least twice to actually get a useful unit out of it (in WFB, a unit of 10 Empire State Troops, for example, is getting Fireballed off the table in the first couple of turns and is just throwing VPs away, in AoS that is still not a unit that's going to win you games by itself but it will be able to contribute something meaningful). Combine that with the removal of a %-based composition system that means you can buy the fun stuff without needing half a dozen boxes of basic troops first, and it's clear that AoS is much cheaper to get into that 40k or WFB.
The Grumpy Eldar wrote:From what I've heard from some people is that the Generals handbook that it's going to be around €20,- and comes around 23 of juli. Heard from some sources that went to the european managers meeting.
If it's true... I'll be delightfully suprised. It might help AoS further.
I really do hope so. When AoS was released it was quite embracing because of the 4 page rules that were actually not really 2 pages once all the "set up" was taken out. I just hope this doesn't turn into another joke and can actually make AoS respectable.
auticus wrote:I like the over the top heavy metal album setting. I've waited for something like this for the past 20 years.
Now only if GW used Heavy Metal artwork or at least their great artwork they had before. Artwork does a lot in a game. It can make someones imagination bloom. I don't get this from AoS.
Agies Grimm:The "Learn to play, bro" mentality is mostly just a way for someone to try to shame you by implying that their metaphorical nerd-wiener is bigger than yours. Which, ironically, I think nerds do even more vehemently than jocks.
Everything is made up and the points don't matter. 40K or Who's Line is it Anyway?
Auticus wrote: Or in summation: its ok to exploit shoddy points because those are rules and gamers exist to find rules loopholes (they are still "legal"), but if the same force can be composed without structure, it emotionally feels "wrong".
richstrach wrote: I really like the over-the-top setting of the Mortal Realms - it has more in common with Hiernonymus Bosch or Goya than it does with the standard Tolkienesque fantasy setting. I understand that it's not quite everyone's cup of tea, but my only complaint about it is that it's quite difficult to recreate those more surrealistic elements of the geography on the tabletop (although the battleplans try to reflect it I suppose).
I think that's it exactly. It's a different type of fantasy, and maybe not one that people who grew up with a half century of Tolkien clones is familiar with. It makes people uneasy because the tropes they rely on to keep point them in the right direction may no longer be applicable.
Like when people complain that there are no normal people in Age of Sigmar - that's not an objective complaint. That's not better or worse than the alternative. It's just that people like that trope and maybe find it useful for putting perspective on the superheroics of gods and monsters. When everybody is a god, how do you judge their relative capabilities? I'm not sure you have to. I think mythic fantasy may be more similar to Shonen style manga/anime in that a character's power level is relative to their commitment to the task at hand. Like Vandus Hammerhand's wavering in the face of dark future visions may say more about what he is capable of than the fact that he was reforged by Sigmar. And Sigmar may be an immortal god-king, but the anger and regret (maybe even denial) that he shows over having to abandon the realms to Chaos drive his character more.
So, the setting is really only over-the-top with respect to Tolkienesque fantasy. Its peers are Norse and Greek mythology. It's more Clash of the Titans than Wheel of Time. It's contemporaries are comic books. It's Flash Gordon or a grimdark Masters of the Universe. It's the cover of an 80s heavy metal record. And there's nothing wrong with that. It's just that it is basically a new genre, and requires new signpost tropes to guide our understanding of it.
Kilkrazy wrote: Maybe it's new to you youngsters. To me it's a lot more reminiscent of Michael Moorcock's Eternal Champion books than Tolkien.
It's not that it is new. It's just fallen out of fashion. After Tolkien sort of codified high fantasy as the standard for fantasy, all the other stuff became too unrealistic compared to the grounded seminal works and ended up largely becoming the domain of young adult fiction (comic books, cartoons, and the like) - and I think part of the problem AoS faces is that it reminds people more of cartoons than the more serious, grounded stuff. It's a problem of respect, not necessarily exposure.
Also, I've never read Moorcock, but I was under the impression that Elric and the like were closer to heroic fantasy/swords and sorcery like Conan - more swashbuckling than the trials and tribulations of gods.
1K Vostroyan Firstborn
2K Flylords
600 Pts Orks
3K Ad-Mech 
