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Lorgar doesn't do things though. That's part of his character. He's completely paralyzed when it comes to original thought and only acts when someone tells him what to do.

Davor wrote:

 Sinful Hero wrote:

I was trying to make the point you could prevent Chaos or Tyranids from "winning" if on a whole they're given less than stellar rules.

They don't have stellar rules now. I am not sure what you are trying to say. Please explain.

Conspiracy theory:
GW is going to have a global campaign. They want Eldar, Tau, and Space Marines to "win" the campaign. They could intentionally give the other codexes mediocre rules, and the codexes they want to win more powerful rules to ensure the result they want. The fact that Chaos, Tyranids, Dark Eldar, etc already have less than stellar rules is exactly why they wouldn't do well in a global campaign, supporting my conspiracy theory.

Edit: thanks tneva82 for explaining for me last page.

 Kanluwen wrote:
"Beast Arises" is a major plot development happening right now.

You're welcome to say that it "never got rules for the game"(which is absolutely true) but it is also a thing going on right now.

It is seemingly laying the groundwork for the return of some Loyalist Primarchs(Vulkan states in "The Hunt for Vulkan" that he could not return yet to the Imperium as "this was not the war he was intended to return for"--and he tells one of the Last Wall that 'they are true Sons of Dorn and that when he next sees Dorn, he shall speak of his sons with pride') and possibly laying the groundwork for more Ork stuff later on.

It's set 1,000 years after the Heresy, that isn't " right now".

Well i for one will welcome our new primarch overlords. A revamp of 40k could be a real boon- im much more excited about AOS than i ever was from whfb; and although there was a slow start isn't it now selling three times as much?

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
"Beast Arises" is a major plot development happening right now.

You're welcome to say that it "never got rules for the game"(which is absolutely true) but it is also a thing going on right now.

It is seemingly laying the groundwork for the return of some Loyalist Primarchs(Vulkan states in "The Hunt for Vulkan" that he could not return yet to the Imperium as "this was not the war he was intended to return for"--and he tells one of the Last Wall that 'they are true Sons of Dorn and that when he next sees Dorn, he shall speak of his sons with pride') and possibly laying the groundwork for more Ork stuff later on.

It's set 1,000 years after the Heresy, that isn't " right now".

By "right now", I mean this is the first time the events of "The Beast Arises" have been explored. Not that it is set in the current time frame of 40k.

Tailessine wrote:
Well i for one will welcome our new primarch overlords. A revamp of 40k could be a real boon- im much more excited about AOS than i ever was from whfb; and although there was a slow start isn't it now selling three times as much?

There's absolutely no information to support that outside of GW's own offices, so wherever you got that idea is likely nothing more than speculative or anecdotal.

Certainly there hasn't been any sort of seismic shift in their financial reports to suggest this, but the next one is due shortly, so we may be able to surmise something, but as they don't report by product line it will be purely educated guesswork unless there is something explicit in the CEO's statement or similar.

There's so much material between 30k and 40k that could be covered that going for a 40k End Times is generally pointless. It's a setting for stories, one that is much more easily copy-righted than the much more generic WHFB one was, not a story.

What other miniatures games have been around for 30 years and are still popular without having any updates? Even Monopoly gets new versions every year, though they do still sell the classic version.

Davor wrote:

While AoS only has 4 pages, really 2 pages of rules, there is so many special rules on the war scrolls, that AoS is really not a simple came but a simpler game now, with a lot of complexity. It works because you don't feel like you have to remember the entire rule book and when you need to find that rule, it's on the war scroll right in front of you and don't have to flip through book and waste time arguing how something works.

Mistaking convolutedness with complexity again. AoS is not complex, it's fundamentally simplistic but with hundreds of pages of garbage attached to it. It takes the single most impractical aspect of Warmachine - having to remember unique rules for every unit - which Warmachine is trying to minimize with USRs - and makes it the foundation of the system. But I do agree with you that 40k will head in the same direction, the formations with their free extra rules are a clear indicator of that.

To be honest, plastic primarchs with 40K rules (daemon or otherwise) is a license to print money, so I'm kind of shocked its taken them this long to get around to it. They've kept the loyalist primarchs' fluff so shrouded in mystery that pretty much all but one of them could return with an easy explanation (sorry Iron Hands players). With the daemon primarchs, they open the door to traitor legion rules, which would crank the fan frenzy to 11.

As for the campaign, all signs are really pointing toward a Thousand Sons army of some sort coming out this year, even if its a bunch dataslates in a campaign book. I seriously doubt GW is going to ever do a global interactive campaign such as Armageddon or Eye of Terror, they simply don't want the direction of the fluff to be in players' hands again. But I could see a series of campaign books in the same vein as End Times where they introduce new models, new units, etc without a proper codex release.

This would of course, likely lead up to a new edition of 40K, a system that is hopefully a bit more streamlined and sensible, but it will still use the formation/dataslate system already in place (and likely the current flyer rules in DFTS), so the current books aren't completely useless. There is nothing to prevent GW from doing the same thing for existing units that they did with AoS, redo the rules and publish the dataslates for older units for free until an updated book collecting each army comes out down the road.

Twenty bucks says the next edition of 40k will look very much like this. But with points. I think GW learned their lesson on that, at least.

 Breotan wrote:
Twenty bucks says the next edition of 40k will look very much like this. But with points. I think GW learned their lesson on that, at least.

I'm all kinds of ok with that. 40k in its current form has just become so bloated. It has ever bit the fringe cases, volume of rules, etc... of Sigmar, but at least that game has the decency to put your select rules right in front of you, for only the units you've selected, versus spreading them thinnly throughout formations, detachments, the big-rule-book, a Codex, a Codex supplement, and Forgeworld's books.

I was thinking about it today... do say, Skimmers really warrant a whole chunk of a page in the big-rule-book, when the actual flavor those rules suggest could've easily been a bullet-point in the unit? If we trimmed every one of those hyper extraneous rules out of the core-book you could have a significantly easier core set of rules to teach, with complexity coming from unit synergy etc... the way they do now anyway, but with a fraction of the up-front intimidation.

Oh, and I will gladly take a points-system given feedback by the 40k tournament community, etc... over what we have. Stuff like holding the pretense that CADs are still the default feels naive when its clear that at least the road GW has gone down is one of formations gone amok.

I would like some rule trimming as well.

I've noticed more kits come with rules in the box these days, so I'm think at least the free rules aspect is likely to carry over from AoS to 40k 8.0.

 Breotan wrote:
Twenty bucks says the next edition of 40k will look very much like this. But with points. I think GW learned their lesson on that, at least.

I'll take that bet.

I just realized FW probably has more publication tied to the current rules than GW does. Some pretty high value ones too. Wonder if that will play into how far from 7th the next edition will land, or if they'll throw all the HH and IA stuff under the bus.

tneva82 wrote:

Davor wrote:

Funny how other games manage to survive without redoing everything all the time though.

Where are they? They are small potatoes compared to GW. Even PP has done an edition change and it's their third one now. Yes the rules are free, but a lot of people are buying new stuff now because of a new edition. This GW knows as well. PP is making a new edition because they know to it will make people spend more money and that is how they keep surviving. Look at Battletech. I love how time line always changes. Thing is the rules haven't changed much from the beginning, so people don't buy as much because once you have what you bought you don't need anymore. Again I said look at it from a business point of view or in GW eyes. How are you going to keep making the same money you are. While GW profits are no where near what they use to be, they are still in the millions of profit and the small potatoes companies that "don't" do it would love to have GW profits.

So again I ask you, how do you sustain the large profits and keep them up? You are running the business now.

Davor wrote:
They don't have stellar rules now. I am not sure what you are trying to say. Please explain.

I think that's his point. Conspiracy theory remember? He's suggesting enemies of Imperium have been in past given deliberately lousy rules to ensure they can't possibly win this campaign. Pretty long term planning that.

Breotan wrote:Twenty bucks says the next edition of 40k will look very much like this. But with points. I think GW learned their lesson on that, at least.

OH I would so LOVE this to happen. All the rules for the units on a warscrolls, or I should say dataslates.

my thoughts on what they could (should?) do

strip the rules down to AoS level simplicity...and then ADD modern mechanics...like:

resource allocation
Reactions
dare I say it...alternating activation.
(just kidding on that last one)

You know what i don't see on those warscrolls ? Options.

If you can't pick unit sizes, weapon options, upgrades etc.. you might as well be playing Warmachine with their neat little stat cards.

If I wanted to play War Machine I can already do that.
Don't make 40K War Machine.
Don't make 40K Kings of War in Space.
Don't make 40K Age of Sigmar in Space.
Don't make 40K Anything that automaticaly invalidates every codex.

In AoS unit options are listed under the description, with language to the effect of "sometimes models in this unit wield X and Y, othertimes they go to battle with twin Zs" and "A unit of These Fighty Dudes and Dudettes has N or more models".

I have the feeling that the FAQs they're putting out right now for 40k are a dry run for similar things in the future. if this process works for them, they'll likely use it going forward with the next edition of the game.

The Daemon Primarchs aren't returning alone? So, with Angron, Perturabo, Magnus, and the rest I don't really care about, we are going to see...

Guilliman getting off the toilet? Lion is getting a kiss from Prince Charming? The Khan remembers he's a primarch and punches his way out of prison? Vulkan stops being a dick and comes back?

I kind of want to see Guilliman/Fulgrim round two, now that Fulgrim has had ten thousand years to rot his brain with Slaanesh...

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
To be honest, plastic primarchs with 40K rules (daemon or otherwise) is a license to print money, so I'm kind of shocked its taken them this long to get around to it. They've kept the loyalist primarchs' fluff so shrouded in mystery that pretty much all but one of them could return with an easy explanation (sorry Iron Hands players). With the daemon primarchs, they open the door to traitor legion rules, which would crank the fan frenzy to 11.

Well BA primarch got killed by Horus so if he comes back so too can Iron hands primarch

His killing got confirmed by Emperor and Dorn and his death scarred his legion by psychic effect enough that otherwise noblest and best space marines have ever since been plagued by that memory that can turn them to lunatics.

Man, if Dorn comes back, he better have a huge power fist in place of his missing hand. Like Dreadnought-sized Power Fist or Knight Warden-sized Power Fist.

 adamsouza wrote:
You know what i don't see on those warscrolls ? Options.

If you can't pick unit sizes, weapon options, upgrades etc.. you might as well be playing Warmachine with their neat little stat cards.

If I wanted to play War Machine I can already do that.
Don't make 40K War Machine.
Don't make 40K Kings of War in Space.
Don't make 40K Age of Sigmar in Space.
Don't make 40K Anything that automaticaly invalidates every codex.

Warmachine with space marines would be a vast improvement

 adamsouza wrote:
Don't make 40K Anything that automaticaly invalidates every codex.

This is the only way to make 40k good, tho. The 20 years of backwards compatibility is the fundamental reason why 40k is the complete trainwreck that it is.

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 adamsouza wrote:
Don't make 40K Anything that automaticaly invalidates every codex.

This is the only way to make 40k good, tho. The 20 years of backwards compatibility is the fundamental reason why 40k is the complete trainwreck that it is.

Exactly. They need to do what they did with Age of Sigmar. Completely overhaul everything at once, but release the rules for each army for free.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Man, if Dorn comes back, he better have a huge power fist in place of his missing hand. Like Dreadnought-sized Power Fist or Knight Warden-sized Power Fist.

Nah, Dorn will be squeezed into a centurion suit that he's been hiding in for a few thousand years, waiting for the right moment to reveal himself.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 adamsouza wrote:
Don't make 40K Anything that automaticaly invalidates every codex.

This is the only way to make 40k good, tho. The 20 years of backwards compatibility is the fundamental reason why 40k is the complete trainwreck that it is.

Exactly. They need to do what they did with Age of Sigmar. Completely overhaul everything at once, but release the rules for each army for free.

I actually agree with this 100% the struggle of maintaining past framework for the armies coupled with the catch 22 task of introducing new units/rules/weapons into a game defined by its past editions is simply put, an exercise in futility. This is how we end up with heavy bolters being useless, autocannons garbage, Missile Launchers trash, grav-weapons dominating, and 90% of the issues in 40k stem from this practice of keeping the old, ancient theories and mechanics.

40k should play like AOS with a bit more tactical depth, army construction that is flexible, fluid, balanced, retain the weapon options, and introduce an adaptive and responsive turn system.

 adamsouza wrote:
You know what i don't see on those warscrolls ? Options.

If you can't pick unit sizes, weapon options, upgrades etc.. you might as well be playing Warmachine with their neat little stat cards.

If I wanted to play War Machine I can already do that.
Don't make 40K War Machine.
Don't make 40K Kings of War in Space.
Don't make 40K Age of Sigmar in Space.
Don't make 40K Anything that automaticaly invalidates every codex.

With this I can completley agree. Let 40k be 40k, trim it, make it better, but don't change the game completley. I really apreciate the complexity of the game. Making it like AoS or anything else would kill it completley for me.

If you do want to play a faster game, just turn down the points value! I have had fun games with armies at 300-750 points. It much more fast paced and easy.