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Having seen Kragura's thread on WE vs Skaven and having somewhat similar problems, I thought I'd pick your collective brains when it comes to Empire vs. Skaven. I am especially keen to hear some advice since I have a 3k game scheduled for tomorrow in which I will ally with a Bretonnian commander.

Some of the problems I usually face are:

- Whichever of my units gets charged, usually dies unless it has the rod of command
- Pistoliers are ace and whittle down blocks but are easy prey for a DW or any weapon team in the vicinity
- Knights bounce off the blocks or die to any of the big things (usually a DW) or those Plague Censer Bearers
- They might be "only" M5 infantry but it feels that they're upon me right away. Last game my helblaster got 15 kills on the first turn and 16 on the second, which is pretty good all things considered but when the depleted units hit my centre, it broke like a rotten tree, despite my GotE killing three guys and having the Laurels...

It's been a while since I played Warhammer, but as a past Skaven player I can make a very brief point on what concerned me.

I'd always worry when my supporting weapons got nailed early. The masses of infantry are used to bog down enemies, not necessarily to crush them in combat. Clanrats will struggle against heavily armoured opponents, but they do have a massive advantage in terms of numbers.

I really don't know much about Empire, so I'm probably not much help. But if you can pop the Doomwheels, Warpfire Teams etc early, you will have an easier time. Also, watch you flanks, and try to massacre any unit which contains a Grey Seer. They really are that good and will ruin your day.

TLR- Nail flashy stuff, soak up the charge, have a strong counter attack ready if possible. As a Skaven player I found games against elves much easier than say Dwarves or Undead. If you play 40k I would take anti-Tyranid tactics against skaven, they work in similar ways.

Hochland long rifles can be worthwhile, as skaven characters are easy to snipe.

New skaven are heavily reliant on doomwheels, hellpit abominations, screaming bells, or plague furnaces (pick 2 or 3). These items, being large targets, are all very vulnerable to shooting and magic. Bring cannons, bring a doomfire ring on somebody.

At least one steam tank, maybe 2. more cannonballs flying about, and also something that can't be broken, that passes all toughness tests, and that skaven magic has a hard time hurting (also, causing terror doesn't hurt, and getting the charge on a HPA doesn't either. 6d3 s6 impact hits is no joke even for the big fella).

I would go with arch lector, priest, priest, scroll caddy as your heroes.

Just my thoughts.

I've been playing a friend of mine's Empire against the local influx of Skaven. What I've noticed is that even though Clanrats are chewy, they can beat even Knights of the Inner Circle in combat on a regular basis due to their sheer numbers. However, Steam Tanks tend give a rats ass about anything they run into. Some suggestions I have:

*Run your knights either right down the piper with your large blocks of infantry in a very aggressive manner or use them to charge Doomwheels. With the random movement of the DW you are more likely to get the charge.

*Use your Steam Tanks to either take down Hellpits or Rat Ogres. If none of those are available (not likely, but hey, it could happen) use them to crush a forward unit that is in LOS to as much of his army as possible. If you can obliterate them then you have a chance to cause mass panic in the army.

*Use some priests. Skaven magic can be brutal when it lands. Scorch is going to make you pick up your Core infantry with a snow shovel. I wouldn't suggest going all out with your on casters unless you are comfortable with that playstyle.

*Hellblaster Volley Guns can be very useful too. They have the potential to soften up even Plaguerats and Stormvermin. Mortars can be solid against clanrats and slaves if you can guess range well.

Those are just some suggestions I have. I'm hardly an experienced player as I'm sure you saw in the thread you noted, but these are some things I have concluded in my several games of Empire Vs. Skaven.

Very good ideas, thanks guys. I don't own a Steam Tank, much less two but I will ponder that for future games. It's a little...univentive, shall we say, but I don't get any medals for being innovative anyways.

My knights often fight the Doomwheel and I must say it is not an easy task. I did manage to kill or run it down once or twice but at other times its shots get me. I'm just glad that it has to charge in the arc it was facing at the start. Last game it wheeled around and hit my knights from the rear - they never went anywhere afterwards.

The Doomfire ring is fantastic. Yes, it can be dispelled relatively easily but that's another die drawn, and if it happens to go off and hits more than one unit, it can roll up a flank all on its own.

Doesnt the doomwheel always get some str6 attacks before blows are struck in the combat phase? I'd just keep my knights away from it and throw a cannon or two at it.

You definitly need a steamtank, its practically unkillable. Your opponent gets zero poitns for almost killing it. Whats more is that it hurts a lot when it runs into things.

If your facing an abomination, bring a fire mage. If it takes any wounds from fire at all it loses its ability to return to the field when it dies.

infamousxiii wrote:Doesnt the doomwheel always get some str6 attacks before blows are struck in the combat phase? I'd just keep my knights away from it and throw a cannon or two at it.

I think those are impact hits, which only apply if the doomwheel charges you. If you charge it, there are no impact hits.

but i thought there was an entry that stated "On a turn that the doom wheel does not charge" and it was essentially a rule that gave it impact hits in subsequent rounds of combat. I don't have the new skaven book so i cant prod the exact paragraph and i could be mistaken all together.

My only surefire way to kill the doom wheel is to hit it with both, a unit of chaos knights with juggernaut chx and Valkia simultaneously.

The Doomwheel must have been invented by a manufacturer of dice. It does a random number of impact hits if it comes into contact with a unit, it attacks enemy units with an even greater random number of attacks from the crew, it does another random but smaller number of automatic hits and then it shoots again at the unit it is engaged with in the shooting phase.

+1 for complicating things for no good reason!

Anyways, I had another game on Tuesday. This time I was allied with a Bret player. He brought knights, Reliquae and bowmen, I brought infantry, flaggellants, wizards, cannon, Outriders, helblaster and skirmishers. We got massacred. Of course there were some extenuating circumstances, such as my ally having last played in 6th edition and not really knowing the rules, or the fact that playing on a team makes unit coordination much more difficult. Still, we got outplayed and apparently had offended the dice on top. It started with an eye opener when we were outdeployed with a refused flank - yes, by 3k of Skaven! That meant that my infantry was out of the early game. Even worse, the two units of State troops were held up for a considerable amount of turns by one unit of Rats and a warpfire thrower (hit, kill, failed panic test, rally...). When I finally broke the Skaven centre (Halberdiers + Flaggies) - after being held up by a couple of Rats rolling snake eyes on the break test, our right flank simply did not exist anymore. One lance had hit and overrun a unit of Slaves and was in turn killed to a man from all sides, a second lance had hit the Bell and stuck fast until PCB's hit it in the flank and destroyed it too. One of my cannon and his bowmen were overrun by skirmishers from our rear. Only the Reliquae held against the Doomwheel for three rounds.

Shooting was okay I suppose, 12, 14, 16, 10 shots from the Helblaster with only one dud on the last turn plus the Outriders breaking a unit of Clanrats but it just did not matter, not when a single shot from a warpfire thrower killed whole units in one turn - and there were three such throwers. Ouch.

Magic was a complete failure. We had 8 PD, 6 DD, 2 scrolls, 2 bounds + the Rod of Power vs. 11 PD, 6 DD, 1 scroll. To name but one instance: On the last turn, his Grey Seer miscast, and I was already starting to feel just a little bit better - then he proceeds to roll a 12 and casts with UF, wiping out the Outriders. Losing the spell to the miscast didn't matter in this case.

I don't know what to say. If I find a solution to one problem, something else cancels it out again. Between terror, unbreakable, numbers, good shooting, good magic, good Ld there is very little with which I can compete. My Flaggies hit relatively hard, as did the lances and even the Halberdiers with WP against his basic troops but still...

The entry for the doomwheel reads "Grinding Doom. The doomwheel does D3 impact hits distributed as shooting in any turn it does not charge". I didn't see anything in the FAQ to really override it, so from I read sure you charge it, but I still get D3 impact hits before you attack.

Anyways - Empire vs. Skaven.
1. Aside from the normal stuff like watch out for doomwheels and abominations (terror causing) I think you really need to watch out for stormbanner usage. Not really having any magic ranged attacks, the stormbanner can really put a cramp on your shooting phase (which really is where the Empire shines).
2. You can't count on your rank bonus and static res to win combats, as most rat players will have more than you.
3. Don't let Doomwheels and Abominations get the charge on you, as well as don't let Doomwheels (now that they can pivot and have 360 LOS) move up near your steam tanks, war altars -basically your expensive stuff. Sure they can roll a misfire for the warp lightning, but Str 6,8, or 10 at D6 wounds a pop is not a good thing to hit you.
4. Warpfire throwers are VERY nasty against large empire blocks. 2+ to kill and automatic panic checks- ouch.
5. Yes the steam tank helps out (and if you run double stanks your an *ss), but watch out for jezzails and engineers with the brass orb. Tactic of mine now is taking a cheap 15 pt engineer and giving him a brass orb, moving him up within an inch of the steam tank and throwing it. Sure it scatters, but either a hit, misfire or 2 inch deviation = byebye steam tank. (Note on a misfire the template will still touch the steam tank, autodestroying it).
6. PCBs WILL win combats with empire infantry if they charge - personally I think it's better to charge them, even if your taking the toughness tests. 3 Str 5 with hatred a guy is sick.
7. Skaven magic - undecided. Haven't really seen it run.
8. Warmachines need to pick out the big nasties like the bell, furnace, HPAs, Doomwheels, etc. If you let the bell or furnace get into combat, it will probably be there the rest of the game.

Just some thoughts

I dont know the specifics on your game really, but i think i would have used the pistoliers to shoot at the bell every turn until the gray seer died. Yay for large target!

gonna say it again, grab a steamtank! and don't even think about firing its cannon, ever. Just roll it up into people and watch the magic work itself.

If your opponent is playing HPAs, Doomwheels, Bells and Furnaces all in one game then I'm gonna go ahead and say double stank isn't a terribly cheese dick thing to do on your part. However, you really need to get at least one. Also, what kind of state troops are you using? Are you using detachments? Only 1 Cannon?

Was this 1500 Empire + 1500 Brets against 3000 Skaven? I can only assume so. In 1500 a Stank is gonna be a bit spendy.

The Doomwheel does d6+1 impact hits on the charge otherwise it gets d3 impact hits at the start of any round of combat.

Ah. My bad.

Isn't it bad though when every tactic for Empire now seems to include "Use a Steamtank"!

I think in a larger game the army is really geared to take a Steam Tank. It's like a Lizardman army not taking magic. It goes into the synergy of the army. Yes it is an incredible unit, but again, in larger point games you should be taking things that are capable of taking down a Stank.