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Made in ca
Storm Lance





Ontario

So I've recently been very disenchanted with Warhammer, and more importantly GW. The way 5th edition (Which is a step forward in a lot of ways) has developed the game, changed the meta, and shifted the hobby has left some armies in the dust. When I first got into the hobby GW was all I new and I was head over heels in love with 40k and Fantasy... But that was 2005, this is 2010. I'm older and have been opened up to other miniature companies and war games. And I can now compare GW to other companies, such as Privateer Press.

But I recently came across something interesting. I was going over the old Codex Harlequins written by Gav Thorpe (The Man, The Legend) for the harlequins which was designed as a beta test for when GW would eventually write codex Harlequins lol. Now this shocked me as GW literally comes across as the fat cat suit wearing monster most of the time. But this codex, made in the year 2000 shows that things were not always so bleak. Codex Harlequin Beta was released through the net for the public to play test it and hobbyists and players were encouraged to write in and comment on what they liked, hated, wanted changed etc.... exactly like a video game beta. Privateer Press did this with Warmachine MKII, which probably was the smartest move by a hobby company I've seen.

Imagine if GW went back to this, If they released lesser known forces like Harlequins, Mechanicum, Squats etc in PDF codex's for download. It would encourage fandom, conversions and sell more models. It would give fans of the fluff a chance to play a force they could not normally play. Imagine if GW released PDF's for all published armies to bring them in line with 5th when the rulebook dropped, and then added content and new models to the finished codex release. I know this is a lot of wish listing, but I saw this and it made me remember a time when there was more to GW then Jervis hating, Price Hikes, and people whining that there lists need updating. What do you guys think? Should GW adopt a more community conscious business form, can us as fans, and the people who pay their salaries, and play there games band together and force some changes.... am I crazy! Let me know.⨪

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Mighty Brass Scorpion of Khorne






Dorset, UK

Yes they should do this. Will it ever happen? I think not.
We can always hope though eh?

   
Made in gb
Dispassionate Imperial Judge






HATE Club, East London

The Codex: Harlequins PDF wasn't a downloadable PDF originally - it was a Citadel Journal article. It was only made a PDF when the CItadel Journal stopped publishing - kinda like the last Blood Angels Codex. When it first came out in WD, it wasn't available as a PDF. I don't think they ever had plans to make a full Codex:Harlequins book - the Journal was more of a forum for interesting ideas, fandexes and scenario articles.

I would love to see GW get back into the 'hobby' rules area - more PDFs like the Kroot Mercenaries list would be great, allowing players to play 'fluffy' armies. They wouldn't even need to be that developed - if the point is to make weird and wonderful armies available for hobbyists then it doesn't need six months of playtesting.

One one hand, the forthcoming release of Spearhead through WD may herald the return of this way of thinking - using WD as a way of publishing interesting variant rules rather than just a catalogue.

One could also argue that the 'extra hobby rules' department has now been taken over by Forgeworld.

Also, I imagine the reason they DON'T do this is so they have more control over the sales of their key 'lines'. Having one Eldar army and one army book that everyone uses allows them to control sales much more than having five different variant lists. If they make a supercool new plastic kit for Eldar, and then make the rules amazing so that everyone wants one, they want to know that EVERY eldar player has a reason to get one...

   
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Made in ca
Storm Lance





Ontario

I know, they seem to only care about the bottom line. I find it hard to support a game where the people making it are so in the dark about whats going on with there fans. Nobody asked for Spearhead/Planetstrike/Battlemissions. But we got it, I know there are people on this forum that would of much rather had codex tau empire, necrons, dark eldar, Dark angels and all three factions of the inquisition before we need a new way to play 40k... work on supplements after the old armies are up to snuff, not before.

I'm with Filbert...even bringing back chapter approved would be a huge step in the right direction.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/05/26 15:47:35


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Made in au
Lady of the Lake






So let me get this right. If I find the Harlequin PDF on the net and print it out. It would be legal and thus allow me to use it in a GW?

   
Made in ca
Been Around the Block




Its a tough world though. You start a company because youre really into the hobby. It slowly gets more and more popular and you keep putting out more models and hobby items. Then you realize, "Hey we could turn this into a video game, or a series of books, or a collectible series of decorative plates" And as you get more successful, you need to go public. And then there are shareholders, and a board of directors. And they start saying, "Well how can we be making the most money" and little bits and bobs that may have been awesome to the hobby start to get lost because they dont offer a source of returns.

Is there a business model that allows for monetization without necessarily losing sight of the original goal?
   
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In my Austin Ambassador Y Reg

countchocula86 wrote:Its a tough world though. You start a company because youre really into the hobby. It slowly gets more and more popular and you keep putting out more models and hobby items. Then you realize, "Hey we could turn this into a video game, or a series of books, or a collectible series of decorative plates" And as you get more successful, you need to go public. And then there are shareholders, and a board of directors. And they start saying, "Well how can we be making the most money" and little bits and bobs that may have been awesome to the hobby start to get lost because they dont offer a source of returns.

Is there a business model that allows for monetization without necessarily losing sight of the original goal?


There are plenty of companies that maximise profits without crapping on their customers. Making money yet remaining loyal to your consumer base are not mutually exclusive things; GW is yet to appreciate that.

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Made in ca
Storm Lance





Ontario

n0t_u... it depends. My GW store will let me use the PDF Harlequin Codex in friendly games, however Im unsure if they'd allow it in tournie play.... disclaimer from Jervis saying he'd appreciate the PDF dex getting a field test, may not stand for very much with TO. It's not a published Codex, its a beta test for what might of one day been a published codex... My friends let me play it... I6 harlies that halve your opponents weapon skill, is allight by them.

Basically its up to TO for tournies, and store owners for games played in there store... its a grey area...like forgeworld.

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Ghastly Grave Guard





UK

The_0perator wrote:
I was going over the old Codex Harlequins written by Gav Thorpe (The Man, The Legend) .⨪


You don`t play Chaos marines do you?

While I agree and think if GW were to go that way and go back to the hobby it just wont happen as they are not interested in that side of it anymore
   
Made in au
Lady of the Lake






The_0perator wrote:n0t_u... it depends. My GW store will let me use the PDF Harlequin Codex in friendly games, however Im unsure if they'd allow it in tournie play.... disclaimer from Jervis saying he'd appreciate the PDF dex getting a field test, may not stand for very much with TO. It's not a published Codex, its a beta test for what might of one day been a published codex... My friends let me play it... I6 harlies that halve your opponents weapon skill, is allight by them.

Basically its up to TO for tournies, and store owners for games played in there store... its a grey area...like forgeworld.


I'm not too fussed about if they can't be used in tournies. Looks like I'll find it and give it a go then

   
Made in ca
Storm Lance





Ontario

Motograter- lol it was an overall statement, as he is legendary for good and bad reasons.

not_u- good hunting, its a pretty cool concept army, low model count, low vehicle count, ...what you do get is some of the most OTT Assualt units in the game... a solitaire has base 4 attacks, gets 2 more if you arm him with powerblades (counts as power weapons) and then gets 1 for charging, and then one more for every inch he dosnt use to get into assualt up to a max of 6. so Solitare goes in and can get up to 12 attacks.. with power weapons..., and ur opponents weapons skill is halved... your welcome.

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Made in us
Brigadier General






Chicago



The_0perator wrote:
What do you guys think? Should GW adopt a more community conscious business form, can us as fans, and the people who pay their salaries, and play there games band together and force some changes.... am I crazy! Let me know.⨪


What do I think? I think you're thinking too small and limited. Despite the threads that crop up every year, GW is not going to be "forced" to do anything. Don't wait for GW to "legalize" your army of choice. Take an old codex and update it yourself! Don't cheeze the stats and ask for your friend's advice on keeping the list fair, then get out there and play! You may have bought the mini's from GW, but it's your game!

n0t_u wrote:So let me get this right. If I find the Harlequin PDF on the net and print it out. It would be legal and thus allow me to use it in a GW?


As long as you're playing a GW game with GW miniatures , you can use any list you want, GW official or not. You'll likely never find a tournament where a non-codex list is allowed, but tournaments aren't what alternate army lists are about anyway.

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Jervis Johnson






What do I think? I think you're thinking too small and limited. Despite the threads that crop up every year, GW is not going to be "forced" to do anything. Don't wait for GW to "legalize" your army of choice. Take an old codex and update it yourself! Don't cheeze the stats and ask for your friend's advice on keeping the list fair, then get out there and play! You may have bought the mini's from GW, but it's your game!

I one hundred percent agree with you. I have a hard time understanding people who whine about lack of variety and demand all sorts of fringe armies to be made mainstream by GW. It seems they know absolutely nothing about the GW hobby despite claiming so. I've been playing GW games alongside games by other companies since 1990. Back in the day we had to imagine most of the rules ourselves because we were kids, didn't understand some of the stuff, didn't have all the books required or the books required didn't even exist. We've even role-played campaigns inside the Warhammer 40K universe by adapting the Warhammer Fantasy roleplay system to the 40K universe.

Games Workshop tabletop games are designed to be played between friends at someone's home or club room. You can already play any army you want. You can imagine your own units with their own stats and their own models and play with them as long as it's fine by your friends. I'm not even sure what the original poster wants. Somekind of validation for a bunch of outdated models gathering dust on the shelf I guess and the ability to take them to tournaments with a PDF codex in order to play against random opponents. If the tournament you're going to doesn't allow fan made army books to be used, it's because most people don't want to play against stuff like that and you need to find another tournament or gaming scene that more suits your own personality and gaming style. If you're really as dedicated to a divergent army or set of models as you're trying to claim you can make it happen. I know people who have Harlequin, Squat, Hrud and god knows what armies and thoroughly enjoy them. GW provides you with the setting but you have to act.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2010/05/26 17:35:45


 
   
Made in ca
Storm Lance





Ontario

Eilif is 100% right, I'm playing the harlie PDF right now, and I know a FLGS owner who took the points deductions that GW made in SM, IG, SW, BA and figured out a percentage of how much was deducted from old codex to new. he then took the average reduced precentage and applied it to the relevent unit in the Tau Codex. he didint change any rules, just brought there points in line, and increased some squad sizes.

His tau list plays hard, plays fair, and he hasnt had to shelve his all battlesuit Tau list to adjust to fifth. I was just saying that I wish GW would go about there buisness practices like PP does, maybe not exactly but a little more support from the top would go along way to making me feel like they cared about where there money was coming from.

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Made in gb
Potent Possessed Daemonvessel






n0t_u wrote:So let me get this right. If I find the Harlequin PDF on the net and print it out. It would be legal and thus allow me to use it in a GW?

http://web.archive.org/web/20070709131232/us.games-workshop.com/games/40k/eldar/gaming/assets/harlequins.pdf
Just in case you haven't found it already N0t .
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Land Raider Pilot on Cruise Control






Plano, Texas

PP is just starting to approach the slippery "hobby only" slope that GW has done in the past that annoyed so many. PP this year introduced certain rules for non existent models that were only to be used in their league.
It was suggested that you use a normal unit with different markings to represent these new models. These rules were thought to be a little over the top for some and under powered for others.
However what about those people who converted up these models?!
Apparently they should be supported forever even though PP said they wouldn't make models for them or support them beyond this little campaign. This is the same thing GW did for LaTD, pirate ghosts, slayers, etc.. These were great lists in their time and maybe even got a unit or 2 but GW did not have plans supporting them beyond those books.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/05/26 20:17:33


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Decrepit Dakkanaut





Vallejo, CA

Firstly, corporations (or limited liability firms, as in the case of the UK) are like cats: they do what they want, and whining at them doesn't change anything.

Secondly, the world or 40k (when it came to rules) was already bizzarly complex. Each army had special rules, chapter approved and white dwarf meant that you needed endless suppliments, etc. The point of GW is to make a standardized game with a standardized fluff that is relatively accessible to people, and allows for reasonably fast-paced wargames to be played (I've heard the stories of 2nd ed games taking all day to play a thousand points). If everybody who had an idea demanded that their idea become official, the game would be more unwieldy than the imperium itself.

Thirdly...
Therion wrote:I'm not even sure what the original poster wants. Some kind of validation...


This is the real problem. Everybody under the age of 30 (including me) was told that we were special and that we all had unique potential and blah blah. Everybody under the age of 25 has had the internet to publish their wonderful snowflake uniqueness under the illusion that people accept and appreciate whatever drivel they've put online. The problem is that people nowadays feel ENTITLED to be listened do (I mean, why are we all on a forum, for goodness sake?), and that all that which we create must be valid and true.

Now yes, fans are perfectly capable of creating some really good ideas (I've had a few myself), and if they were implemented the game would probably be better. The problem is that GW cannot possibly afford the bureaucracy of sifting out all the stupid ideas and then being able to carefully reintegrate them without things going back to the days of bloated and non-user-friendly.

As such, as was stated, you can always do stuff on your own (so long as it doesn't breach GW copyright and you dont' live in the US). You can make up any rules or implement any of your great ideas and have a good time with it all. If you want to claim the game as your own and really work with it, then by all means do so. You just can't expect that absolutely everybody else will go along, just like with everything else in life.

And remember, they do take community feedback: it's called a free market. It wouldn't kill them to actually listen a little more outside of this (difficult because their shareholders don't care), but it's not required. You are a valued customer to GW, but that's it. They're not going to pat you on the head for anything but what you do with your wallet.

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The above poster has my respect.
   
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Hubcap





Sacramento, CA

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Brigadier General






Chicago

Ailaros wrote:This is the real problem. Everybody under the age of 30 (including me) was told that we were special and that we all had unique potential and blah blah. Everybody under the age of 25 has had the internet to publish their wonderful snowflake uniqueness under the illusion that people accept and appreciate whatever drivel they've put online. The problem is that people nowadays feel ENTITLED to be listened do (I mean, why are we all on a forum, for goodness sake?), and that all that which we create must be valid and true.


The trend you point to annoys me also, but I don't think that's the entire problem. Rather the problem seems to be that as GW grew, it tightened the reins on the rules, universe, etc, and tournamentized the game and most GW hobbyists bought into that.

But here's the irony, we brought it on ourselves.

GW staff, and early dealers of GW are often quoted mentioing how it was the customers who wanted points values, competative tournaments, etc. Ever notice how most of the successful games systems have a tournament system and/or a points system? A system that is crafted for tournaments is -by it's very nature- going to be restricted. It keeps things "fair" and creates a fairly level playing field for all those involved. A tournamentized system cannot be open-ended. We wanted it, and GW gave it too us -and they found out that it was a very lucerative system- and then we complained.

Based on the history of wargaming, one would think that GW gamers would continue -as in the past- to create their own house rules, throw out points values from time to time to create narrative/senario based battles, and experiment in all the ways that gamers used to.
But -for the most part- we didn't. We expect(ed) GW to do for us what we should have done for ourselves.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/05/26 21:21:22


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Jervis Johnson






Everybody under the age of 25 has had the internet to publish their wonderful snowflake uniqueness


"Listen up, maggots. You are not special. You are not a beautiful or unique snowflake. You're the same decaying organic matter as everything else."

"You're not your job. You're not how much money you have in the bank. You're not the car you drive. You're not the contents of your wallet. You're not your fu**ing khakis. You're the all-singing, all-dancing crap of the world."

"Man, I see in fight club the strongest and smartest men who've ever lived. I see all this potential, and I see squandering. God damn it, an entire generation pumping gas, waiting tables; slaves with white collars. Advertising has us chasing cars and clothes, working jobs we hate so we can buy sh*t we don't need. We're the middle children of history, man. No purpose or place. We have no Great War. No Great Depression. Our Great War's a spiritual war... our Great Depression is our lives. We've all been raised on television to believe that one day we'd all be millionaires, and movie gods, and rock stars. But we won't. And we're slowly learning that fact. And we're very, very pissed off."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fight_Club

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2010/05/26 23:24:20


 
   
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Tilter at Windmills






Manchester, NH

Fight Club is awesome. Though we do have wars now.

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Decrepit Dakkanaut





Vallejo, CA

lol, yeah

Eilif wrote: Rather the problem seems to be that as GW grew, it tightened the reins on the rules, universe, etc, and tournamentized the game and most GW hobbyists bought into that.

But here's the irony, we brought it on ourselves.


Yeah, this too. What I want out of 40k is a way to be competitive without looking like an idiot chasing after a ball or possibly severely injuring myself.

So, the creators of 40k are making a new game (black powder). I read the interview for it, and it sounded like a game I don't want to play. It has all the hallmarks of the old 40k world. Loose, strange rules, making things up as you go, etc. As Priestly so eloquently puts it:

Rick_Priestly wrote:
It’s interesting because wargaming does tend to split into two camps. There are people who really enjoy the competitive side of wargaming and their social lives become that. And they’re not necessarily hard-nosed, brutal, crazed guys. Most tournament players I have played against have been charming, friendly and helpful. But they have a certain mind set, which is that “I’m here to play a game” and they expect their opponents to have the same mind set. Whereas, I think when we are playing round at Alan Perry’s house, for example, we bring a different mind set to it and I think it’s more typical of the other type of gamer, which is where you actually get together with your friends, specifically to have a social evening in which you’ll push toy soldiers over a table top and create something that’s a piece of theatre. You’re playing as much as you’re gaming.


If I wanted a game for the sole purpose of having something to do while I drank beer with friends, I could have a lot of different kinds of games at my disposal. As it is, 40k is now a competitive game that is played in tournaments. I mean, it's just like Chess. Sure, you can make up any kinds of house rules you want for a game of chess, but you really can't complain with the World Chess Players Association refuses to include your house rules in anything.

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Jervis Johnson






Though we do have wars now.

No wars around here so it applies to me atleast.

But -for the most part- we didn't. We expect(ed) GW to do for us what we should have done for ourselves.

It's somewhat surprising too considering how much of a niche hobby this is. You'd think that people who get into a hobby of assembling, converting and painting figures have a pretty vivid imagination and an interest in art and creating new and interesting things. Afterall most young people just want instant gratification and buy PC or console games (drugs just like the more conventional ones) and shut their brains off and exit the society of the living for an hour, a week, a year or in some sad cases a decade or more.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/05/26 23:53:16


 
   
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Longrifle




Bolton, Lancashire

filbert wrote:Bring back Chapter Approved!


One of the regulars and myself were reminiscing about this in the local GW today.
Kroot merc's, minor psychic powers etc. 40K seemed a lot more varied.

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Fixture of Dakka





Steelcity

I'll say one thing on minor psychic powers.. Siren

I would love to see GW release more random rules, however, people get pissed off when they arent "tournament legal" and on the flip side if they ARE tournament legal GW is generally incapable of making such rules balanced

Dont blame GW for everything, a big part of the demise of the wacky rules was the players negativity and pessimism over them.. A lot of people would say "oh no you cant use that.. its not legal". Just look at the spearhead thread for examples of negative nancys

Why bother making rules when people get all fussy if its not tournament legal? I enjoy tournaments, but I also enjoy fun games.. They arent mutually exclusive

As others have said.. Make your own rules. My friends and I play with massively customized rules for apocalypse and it works great

P.S - Codex harlequins was a trainwreck.. good riddance

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2010/05/27 03:33:19


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Brigadier General






Chicago

Ailaros wrote:
So, the creators of 40k are making a new game (black powder). I read the interview for it, and it sounded like a game I don't want to play. It has all the hallmarks of the old 40k world. Loose, strange rules, making things up as you go, etc. As Priestly so eloquently puts it:
Rick_Priestly wrote:


If I wanted a game for the sole purpose of having something to do while I drank beer with friends, I could have a lot of different kinds of games at my disposal. As it is, 40k is now a competitive game that is played in tournaments. I mean, it's just like Chess. Sure, you can make up any kinds of house rules you want for a game of chess, but you really can't complain with the World Chess Players Association refuses to include your house rules in anything.


Interestingly, if I was into that period, I would definitely be into black powder. The tourney'ness of 40k is what I least like about the game. I like simpler rules, narrative based gaming, and a laid back atmosphere. I agree with you about what 40k generally is now, but it doesn't have to only be that way.

Kirasu wrote:I would love to see GW release more random rules, however, people get pissed off when they arent "tournament legal" and on the flip side if they ARE tournament legal GW is generally incapable of making such rules balanced

Dont blame GW for everything, a big part of the demise of the wacky rules was the players negativity and pessimism over them.. A lot of people would say "oh no you cant use that.. its not legal". Just look at the spearhead thread for examples of negative nancys


This is a real problem. People can't handle a bit of grey or thinking for themsleves. If GW writes something up and says "here, this isn't really tournery appropriate, take this and mess about with it and have some fun" people whine that it isn't tourney legal and say it should have been worked on more and not released unless it was "ready". Whatever happened to sitting down with your opponent and discusssing what kind of game (competative/fluffy, book/homebrew senario, etc) you wanted to play. That's out the window, now it's let's make sure our armies are exactly equal, roll mission from a book and wrap it up in 6 turns. If that floats your boat, cool. I don't mind playing that way, and it's definitely an orderly and acceptable meathod, but it's not the only way to play.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/05/27 05:02:42


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My Project Log, mostly revolving around custom "Toybashed" terrain.
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Lady of the Lake






Little lord Fauntleroy wrote:
n0t_u wrote:So let me get this right. If I find the Harlequin PDF on the net and print it out. It would be legal and thus allow me to use it in a GW?

http://web.archive.org/web/20070709131232/us.games-workshop.com/games/40k/eldar/gaming/assets/harlequins.pdf
Just in case you haven't found it already N0t .


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Elite Tyranid Warrior






I too am in it for the hobby. The painting, assembling, greenstuffing, etc. etc.
I too feel GW has fallen down a few pegs when it comes to the "rules" and "gaming" aspect of it all.

Yes it is true, you can not please all of the people all of the time. But you sure can cheese them all off real quickly.

The game itself is a great concept. However, it has been how long since the Necrons got a new codex? Dark Eldar? It almost seems as though they only release updates for the armies that the GW employees themselves use and care about.




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