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A friend and I were recently talking about the Wood Elf Eternal Guard and how they definitely need a revamp in order to be on par with their Black Guard and Phoenix Guard cousins.

Here is what I think they should look like so far:

15 pts

M WS BS S T W I A Ld
5 5 5 3 3 1 6 2 9

Equipment: Light Armor, Shield, Spear
Special Rules: Armor Piercing, Stubborn, Body Guard (immune to Fear and Terror if they have character with them)

They still would need something else though to give them that extra punch. A few ideas I've been mulling over

1. Going off of the theme that they are the only active force in Athel Loren in the winter and that they have to beat down Shadow Fey on occasion, enemies suffer a -1 to hit them in combat, but Forest Spirits within 6" of them suffer from stupidity.

2. They get to keep their longbows. They were Glade Guard before and Lothern Sea Guard have a similar trick.

3. They are Unbreakable. Perhaps too powerful, but definitely the most fitting with the lore.

So Dakkaites, what say you?

Drop their cost by 5 pts and you have a winner. DE Warriors in a block of 30 with the AP banner is very nearly as effective for 2/3s the cost. No thanks. WE suffer from being unable to take affordable blocks of any kind that are in any fashion survivable. The current problem with EG are noth their statlines or abilities, but their cost. I would prefer to leave their weapons and armor save rules as they are now, but allow them the parry ward.

I would also say that the EG add on for the Lord or Noble should allow that subject to increase any ward save they have by 1 while in CC while using their fighting staff.

@Nagashek
I agree with you that 15 points is way too much for the rules as presented, but I think the Eternal Guard need to at least be more points per model than Glade Guard are. Now Glade Guard need a points decrease as well (possibly to around 10 points, similar to Dark Elf Repeater Crossbowmen), so Eternal Guard with the rules presented above should in my opinion come it at around 12 points (perhaps 13).

Dryads will still be more killy than the EG shown here. It's fine to pay a bit of a premium for your hammer, and less for your anvil. Therefore, lower GG and EG to 10, keep Dryads at 12 and give them Hate. That cost stays the same to offset the gaining of hate and they awkwardly huge footprint.

Considering the fluff, I would think of the Eternal Guard as an elite unit (during the Winter's, they hold off anything without support of other Wood Elf units). For this reason, I think Eternal Guard should at least be more potent than Dryads (and therefore cost more points than Dryads as well).

Greenleaves12 wrote:
1. Going off of the theme that they are the only active force in Athel Loren in the winter and that they have to beat down Shadow Fey on occasion, enemies suffer a -1 to hit them in combat, but Forest Spirits within 6" of them suffer from stupidity.

I like this. Phoenix guard get ward. Black guard get +1 S, extra attack and hate for ever. Eternal guard get -1 to be hit.

-Matt

Both of those examples include Halbards, though. Just saying. Though Warrior Prowess and -1 to hit for EG might be nice...

Maybe Eternal Guard could get Halberds and a special rule allowing their 3rd rank to attack as well (Eternal Guard Fighting Style). As for the OP suggestion of shields, I would be against including shields in a Wood Elves army.

My suggestion would be something like this:

Points cost:
13 points per model.

Statline:
M WS BS S T W I A Ld
5 5 4 3 3 1 6 1 9

Equipment:
Light Armour, Halberd

Special Rules:
Eternal Guard Fighting Style, Stubborn, -1 to hit (both shooting and combat)


Compared to Black Guard, this would give them:
-no re-rolls to hit.
-6+ armour save instead of 5+ armour save.
-fight in additional rank instead of 2 attacks (slightly worse than Black Guard).
+negative to hit modifier on both shooting and close combat attacks against them.
+no model cap for the unit.
+no hatred potentially pulling the unit out of position.

You could add the Wood Elf Longbows (with S4 on short range) to the Eternal Guard as well, as in my opinion all Wood Elves (not Forest Spirits) should have them. Any thoughts on these suggestions?

3 ranks and no unit cap is better than black guard.
Loss of hate is big, but -1 to be hit makes it a wash in a head to head pair up.
-1 to be shot is a lot better than heavy vs light armor, but that's fine.
Hate doesn't pull you out of position in 8th edition.
All in all, S4 with 3rd rank and -1 to be his is pretty solid.

I don't like the idea of bows on these guys. If you add bows, you'd have to add too many points to balance out the effect, which would really make them too expensive to be useful in a steadfast denial block.


Just to hijack your thread, I also think that waywatchers should get traps like gnoblar trappers.

-Matt

HawaiiMatt wrote:Just to hijack your thread, I also think that waywatchers should get traps like gnoblar trappers.

-Matt

+1

Not commenting on specifics, but most non-glade guard, non-tree-kin, non-dryad WE units do need a serious overhaul.

One easy fix for Eternal Guard would be to tweak their rules when it comes to Eternal Guard Fighting Style. The fluff is that they can spin their bladestaffs around them killing anything that comes near them and also provides their 5+ armor save. Why not say Eternal Guard fighting style gives them a 4+ ward save that magical attacks cant undo as they are dodging arrows, CC attacks ect. This would make them like Phoenix Guard but instead of plus 1 strength they retain the two hand weapons rule that already comes with the fighting style rules.

First, giving them Stubborn and a 4+ Ward is a super-awesome combo, unseen in other armies. Second, this thread is awfully old. I did post some suggestions in a later thread, though.

Warpsolution wrote:First, giving them Stubborn and a 4+ Ward is a super-awesome combo, unseen in other armies. Second, this thread is awfully old. I did post some suggestions in a later thread, though.

Is it substantially better than giving a unit ASF and a 4+ ward save, like with Phoenix Guard?

And wouldn't it be a good thing to have a unit with a unique special rules combo?

I was getting at the fact that Stubborn and a 4+ Ward work really well together, as well as both being awesome independently.

It's just such an awesome anvil, and in an army that currently has none, I think you'd see a big block or two in basically every list ever. Which isn't to say Eternal Guard need some help. They need a lot. Just, ya' know, along with the rest of the army. That, and I'd just as soon see them actually capable of winning combat too. I think an all-around elite unit fits the concept better.

My view is Eternal Guard should be around 5 or 6 points as is. They shouldn't be compared to BG or PG; I see them as just spearmen with +1WS. Wardancers are more the elite fighting unit. EG should be our RnF and make them cheap or Glade Guard will again be a better choice.

I don't think we should be paying more for models when units such as Skeletons are going down in price. HE getting a blanket 15 PPM treatment was a mistake.

Eternal Guard. The warriors who keep the scared sites of Athel Loren safe from interlopers while their spiteful fey allies lay sleeping. 5 or 6 points? Are you quite mad?

Elves are elite armies. Each of their models is expensive and effective. That's the point of elves. Wood Elves need something to make them competitive again, I'll agree heartily there, and one solution would indeed be to offer them a cheap rank and file unit, but certainly not the Eternal Guard!
They're the royal body guard, the best of the best. They don't run and they don't give up and they're superb fighters; that's the idea behind Eternal Guard!

Maybe High Elves shouldn't have three choices of infantry with the same cost, but I doubt you'll find anyone saying that they're grossly over costed.
Skeletons are going down in price? Uh, yeah. Because there was literally zero reasons to take them before. Tar pit units like Skeletons and Skavenslaves are cheap so you can field them in droves. My tricked-out unit of Night Goblins can reduce 18 Chaos Warriors to 4 models before the charge, but those 4 models will consistently win combat for several turns anyway.

Wood Elves need cheap rank and file, or they need a total reworking so that the idea of elite and mobile archers/warriors can work again. Really, they just need a few ways to reliably deal with big blocks. Eternal Guard could be that, with all their attacks, or a new army-wide rule, but certainly not reducing Eternal Guard to the cost (and ability, I'd assume) of a Clanrat.

A Wood Elf army that included a unit of cheap, rank and file unit would basically be giving up. It would be GW deciding that they can’t make a competitive army based around elite skirmishing and ranged combat troops, and so here’s a Wood Elf army that’s much the same as everyone else. And I just can’t see GW doing that – say what you like about their ability to balance various armies, they’ve always strived to make each army play in a unique way.

There was a time, remember, when Phoenix Guard were just guys with halberds and WS 5.

I'd agree that ethernal guard are elite troops. The certainly need as strength of 4 and be able to fight from an extra rank like units with spears. In the current wood elfs edition don't have anything to deal with upgraded heavy calvalry. For exammple unit of 10 cold one knights with mallus darkblade which carries a banner granting an extra attack for every model in unit(in cluding coldones) and a banner with always strike first rule carried by a standard bearer is able to rout any wood elf unit. ( Even a unit with ancient treeman and 8 treekin). If wood elfs get ethernal guards which would have s4 and would have fight in extrank rule, then a unit of 40 ethernal guards could withstand the devestating charge of the dark elf unit I mentioned before. Additionaly ethernal guards should get regeneration 5+ or -1 penalty to strike them for oponents to make them more durable. 15 points would be perfect for them.

 sebster wrote:
A Wood Elf army that included a unit of cheap, rank and file unit would basically be giving up. It would be GW deciding that they can’t make a competitive army based around elite skirmishing and ranged combat troops, and so here’s a Wood Elf army that’s much the same as everyone else. And I just can’t see GW doing that – say what you like about their ability to balance various armies, they’ve always strived to make each army play in a unique way.

There was a time, remember, when Phoenix Guard were just guys with halberds and WS 5.

I do agree with this, I believe that Wood Elves need to maintain the Identity of being a skirmishing and elite ranged combat army as it is in their lore. That being said Eternal Guard only really come into their own during the winter where the forest spirits of the forest are asleep which means that the Wood Elves may have to change up their tactics a little, hence the rank and file idea of the Eternal Guard because if they were or became a skirmishing type of unit that would basically make them somewhat along the lines of Wardancers who already have their own niche, so an idea to fit the fluff of both the Wood Elves and the Eternal Guard:

-Eternal Guard units have a unit cap much like the Black Guard in the DE book (thinking x25 max), to represent their "elite" status as a bodyguard unit and so we dont have massive horde formations of them that can be found in the other elf books.

-They remain a special choice, and get a 5+ ward save for their "Fighitng Style" and are -1 to hit in CC and shooting.

-They hit like swordmasters, being a small unit and an elite unit I could easily see them getting S4 along with the rules they already have when it comes to CC which may be much to ask for but we could be bumped up to 15pts. a model so we compare to all the fancy amazing High Elf special choices, and something along those lines would not be to crazy to ask for.

-They are stubborn with or without the Highborn in the unit.

Basically here we get a hybrid combination of all the High Elf Special choices but at the same time have limitations that would fit into the fluff of the Wood Elf army.

@devastator7777777:

Check out my thread "Wood Elves: Total Revamp". Eternal Guard with a 5+ Regen, spear-staves that count as halberds and spears, and that are always Stubborn.

@gmaleron: I agree with you about Eternal Guard offering more "typical" tactics than the other, more specialized units in the book.
And Sebster's point was that Eternal Guard should not be 5pts/model, because Wood Elves are elite and don't have big blocks of throw-away models.

But as to your suggestions:

1. I think unit caps are mostly a thing of the past. What if you want to play a 10,000pt game? No one would field Black Guard when all you can do is lay down tiny blocks of 20. Max unit sizes changes the unit's effectiveness in a really indirect, hard-to-measure sort of way. I think it should be avoided in most instances. Some units, like elite skirmishers, can have such limits without problems. But regular infantry isn't one of them in my opinion.

2. A 5+ Ward save and a -1 to be Hit are about as good as each other (the Ward being a little better in that it's more versatile). Having both is way to good. I went with Regeneration, because it offers protection against attacks that don't roll to hit, but still has a way of being overcome (though a Noble with the Dragonbane Gem would become a popular choice, then).

3. 2A at S4, with Fight in Extra Ranks is a lot of damage. A 5-wide unit of Black Guard--more martially-focused than Phoenix or Eternal Guard--will cause 8.3, 11.2, or 13.3 hits, depending on their target's WS. With your suggestions, the Eternal Guard would cause 6.7, 10, or 13.3. And be way (way) more durable.
One attack with Fight In Extra Ranks brings them back into the domain of balance.

4. I agree about Stubborn. My current idea is that a Highborn or an Eternal-Noble lets you take one unit as Core, and they must join/cannot leave the unit.

devestator 7777777 wrote:
I'd agree that ethernal guard are elite troops. The certainly need as strength of 4 and be able to fight from an extra rank like units with spears. In the current wood elfs edition don't have anything to deal with upgraded heavy calvalry. For exammple unit of 10 cold one knights with mallus darkblade which carries a banner granting an extra attack for every model in unit(in cluding coldones) and a banner with always strike first rule carried by a standard bearer is able to rout any wood elf unit. ( Even a unit with ancient treeman and 8 treekin). If wood elfs get ethernal guards which would have s4 and would have fight in extrank rule, then a unit of 40 ethernal guards could withstand the devestating charge of the dark elf unit I mentioned before. Additionaly ethernal guards should get regeneration 5+ or -1 penalty to strike them for oponents to make them more durable. 15 points would be perfect for them.

That's a 830 point unit, that's T3.
Shoot it. You get 20 waywatchers, 2 eagles and an altered lord with 5 no armor save shots FOR LESS POINTS.

Or Try 12 Tree Kin.
Dark elves are likely to get the charge, A1 base, +1 for the banner. Mallus needs to unleash his sword, otherwise he's only S4.

Mallus gets 4 attacks S5 with re-rolls to hit and wound.
BSB gets 4, unit champ gets 3, and 3 rank and file get 2 lance attacks, 6 more lances in support. (all with re-rolls)
12 cold one attacks (no re-rolls)

That's 2.2 magical wounds from Mallus (8/9 hit, 3/4 wound, 5/6 fail armor, no ward).
Another 7.5 wounds from the unit, 19 lances (8/9ths hits, 2/3rd wound, 2/3rd fail ward)
And finally the mounts.89 wounds (1/2 hit, 1/3rd wound, 2/3 fail armor, 2/3 fail ward).
That around 10 wounds.
Deployed 4 wide, 8 treekin swing back.
24 attacks, 1/2 hit, 5/6 wound, 1/2 fail saves. 5 cold ones are kills.
Cold Ones win, but the tree kin still have a rank and are steadfast.

Round 2, No lance and no +1 A.
It's another 2 from Mallus, but the unit is now gimped.
Coldones do .44 wounds.
The unit dishes out 1.05 wounds from the 8 S4 attacks (8/9ths hits, 1/3rd wound, 2/3 fail armor, 2/3 fail ward)
Tree kin take ~3 more wounds.
That leaves 24 S5 attacks from the kin, doing another 5 wounds.
That may have just wiped the knights, leaving Malus and the BSB vs the 8 Surviving treekin. Tree kin actually win combat (5+rank vs 3+banner). Test at -2 or the BSB bites it.
At this point, the characters do less than 3 wounds, and the treekin punk the BSB.

The fight isn't even that close, the treekin around going to walk out above half strength, with 955+ victory points (830+banner+bsb, maybe 25 more if the treechamp takes out Mallus or the BSB).

-Matt

Thanks for advice.