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I recently got a Cato Sicarius for my Ultramarines army, and would like to field him for a friendly game. I was wondering what the best way to make use of his skills/equipment was, or if anybody had any suggestions. I was also wondering specifically what to do with his ability to give one unit a bonus ability.

I think he is a great bargain for the points but you never see anybody using him. I believe he has Rites of Battle which is pretty good. He has some other nifty special rules like granting Tank Hunter to a tactical squad plus his sword is good versus characters without Eternal Warrior.

I like Cato. His abilities are pretty unfocused, which means more of the army needs to be devoted to justifying his cost. This doesn't make him bad, just that he requires a specific kind of army. Cato likes his infantry so, to make maximum use of Rites of Battle, look at the infantry in each slot first.

I like Cato because he makes your army flexible. He lets you drastically change how your Tactical Squad functions. Use that to respond to your opponent. MSU Mech? Tank Hunter Bolters will glance the hell out of those Razorbacks. Tank Hunter Bolters aren't so hot against a horde. You know what is? Counter-attack and Combat Tactics.

The trick is building your Tactical Squads keeping in mind how they'd benefit from his buff. For instance, I would keep a Plasmagun in a squad, since my Tank Hunters would often stand still to utilize the heavy weapon. However, you might like using Combat Squads when you give them Tank Hunters. so a Meltagun and a Combi-Melta wouldn't be a bad idea. How would you equip a squad to best take advantage of Counter-Attack? I wouldn't necessarily take short ranged weapons. However, you can do all of the above. Once you have a squad for each contingency, see how they function differently with each special rule. Then you can probably remove a redundant squad, finding one you build for Tank Hunters fits well enough when you Infiltrate.

Another cool thing I'd consider are Vanguard Veterans, since you can Infiltrate a Homing Beacon. You could potentially take a Drop Pod to reinforce your forward position. Something like a Dreadnought, which doesn't need to be deployed forward.

Yes youre right. His abilities are: Surprise attack, rites of battle, feel no pain, and battle forged hero (give a tactical squad counter attack, infilitrate, scout, tank hunters). He seems like CQ kinda guy, but i'm not sure how to run him. maybe put him with a terminator squad?


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Hey, thanks for the info. I was going to take Cato for a 1500 point game tomorrow. I tend to play people with alot of armor, so my list has lots of LC, but not too many MMs or meltas because i dont have the bits. My tac squads right now are two 10 man quads, one with a combimelta, plasmagun, and lascannon. The other was flamer and ML, so does it make sense to give the one with the combimelta tank hunter?

Yes, that's the kind of thinking I was talking about. Post the rest of what you have available and how he'd interact with those units. If you say it out loud, it'll become more clear to you. Plus I'm curious.

Here's what I was thinking of using. It comes to exactly 1500. I can post all of my available stuff as well.
HQ
Cato

Transports
Razorback-LC
Rhino

Elite
Sternguard-3 combimeltas,powerfist
dreadnought-2tlac
dreadnought-lc,ccw+hb

Heavy
Pred-AC,HBs

Fast
Landspeeder-missiles, mm

Troops
Scouts-8, telion, sniper rifles, ml
tactical-10 man, lc, combimelta, plasmagun
tactical-10 man, lc, flamer

You should note which transport is going to which squad. I usually include it as part of the units' purchase.

I don't like this list for Cato. You've got a lot of ranged firepower, which makes seizing the initiative more valuable. However, so few infantry makes Rites less valuable. There isn't a squad he'd be comfortable joining. You also don't do much with your Tactical squads. What else do you have?

Yea, sorry. The razorback is for the sternguard, the rhino is for the tactical squad with the combimelta. The only use I could think of for Cato was maybe Infiltrate a tac squad with the scouts, and then push on a flank, using the scouts for covering fire,,, As for what I have, its:
Master of the Watch
Sergeant Telion
Cato Sicarius
Librarian with Staff
Chaplain on foot
AOBR Captian
3 tactical squads, 1 captain with combi-melta, 2 flamer, 1 plasma
2 Dreadnoughts: 2 twin linked autocannons, additional arms from dreadnought set
5 terminators with SBs and PFs
5 man assault squad, 1 Flamer
5 man sniper scouts, 1 ML
5 CCW scouts
1 magnetized landspeeder tornado
Devastators, 2 plasma, 5 missile, 2 heavybolter, 2 lascannon
5 sternguard
1 predator
2 Razorbacks or Rhinos

That's not a bad plan, you just wouldn't have enough behind that flank move.

I'm really not liking how limited you are with those Tactical Squads. I'd grab this in the near future.

Cato Sicarius, 200
5 Sternguard, 2 Lascannons, 155
Dreadnought, 2 TL-AC, 125
5 Terminators, 200
10 Tacticals, Combi-Melta, Plas, PC, Homing Beacon, Rhino, 245
10 Tacticals, Combi-Melta, Flamer, ML, Rhino 215
10 Tacticals, Flamer, ML, 170
5 Scout Snipers, Cloaks, ML, 100
Predator Destructor, 85

I'd prefer:
Cato Sicarius, 200
Command Squad, Jump Packs, Champion, Flamer, 225
5 Sternguard, 2 Lascannons, 155
5 Terminators, CML, 230
10 Tacticals, Combi-Plas, Plas, ML, Rhino, 225
10 Tacticals, Combi-Melta, Melta, MM, Rhino 220
10 Tacticals, Flamer, ML, Razorback w/ TL-LCs, 245

If you fix the Tactical's equipment, you can run your Assault Marine as a Command Squad. Your Predator would make a fine Rhino in its spare time. The Melta SM are for Counter-Attack, receiving a charge after they crack armor. Plas SM get Tank Hunters, making them able to dump 4 S8 shots out of a moving Rhino. The Razorback CSM are either Infiltrating or Combat Squading.

In the first list, the disembarked squad is either Infiltrating along with the Scouts to apply pressure or hoofing it to an objective (they'll use the Flamer if there's anyone there, or the Missile Launcher if there isn't). The middle Tactical Squad needs to be anti-tank, but must take a Flamer instead of a Meltagun. I'd probably run Sicarius with this squad, adding his Plasma Pistol to the Combi-Melta against vehicles, and his PW to the Flamer when you charge.

I'm going to take my advice in a bit of a different direction than DarkHound.

To me, the advantage of Sicarius is that he takes a Space Marine list and makes it work just a little bit differently. As far as the ability he grants to a Tac Squad is concerned, I'm not all that excited by Counter-Attack and Tank Hunters. In my mind, if the rest of my army's dedicated anti-tank can't handle my opponent's armor, giving one squad Tank Hunters isn't going to make that much of a difference. I like Counter-Attack better, but I'd still prefer to just not get my Tac Squads into combat, and they'll be falling back with Combat Tactics regardless.

Now Infiltrating ... that's where Sicarius can do something nobody else can. Tactical Squads are decent at a lot of things but not very damaging against any troop type (except maybe hordes at close range). One thing they do well, though, is being tough to kill while in cover. A Tac Squad that can infiltrate is a lot different than another Tac Squad - it can deploy in response to the enemy, at a range where they can have an impact immediately (even with a multi-melta!), without the need for Rhino transport. It provides your forward element with some staying power. If you have several differently equipped Tac Squads, you can infiltrate the right Tac Squad to threaten the unit you need to threaten. You can then utilize the Sergeant's teleport homer to bring in further strength at that location via your Terminators.


Looking at Sicarius's abilities at a whole, he seems to work best with a list that exemplifies his fighting style in the fluff - a list that strikes hard and fast at your enemy's weak point before they can react, winning a battle based on maneuvering and keeping the initiative, rather than by spamming strong units and steamrolling the enemy. You can deploy second with your units ready to hit the enemy in one spot, then deploy infiltrating Tactical and Scout Marines to spearhead the assault. You can then seize the initiative with a 30% chance to do so, rather than a 16.5% chance. You can then bring down some Drop Pods first turn, throwing some Dreadnoughts and Sternguard to hit the enemy hard while your infiltrators hit key targets and the rest of your army advances.

Not the most uber-competitive strategy, but for a friendly game it sure is fun to play! Do you have any Drop Pods? They would be perfect for maximizing your ability to choose where and when the battle occurs.

Thanks for the tip Roboute. That makes more sense with what I first thought when I saw his abilities. With what youre suggesting though, do you mean to put a tac squad with a MM behind an enemy deployment to pop a land-raider or something? I guess you have a good shot sinking some armor but arent you basically giving up your tac squad if you do that?

AtariAssasin wrote:Thanks for the tip Roboute. That makes more sense with what I first thought when I saw his abilities. With what youre suggesting though, do you mean to put a tac squad with a MM behind an enemy deployment to pop a land-raider or something? I guess you have a good shot sinking some armor but arent you basically giving up your tac squad if you do that?

Well, you wouldn't be putting a tac squad with a MM behind an enemy deployment (not enough room, and that would be a suicide move), you'd be placing them in the no-man's land between the two forces, preferably with the bulk of your forces arrayed to advance and support them. The MM isn't there so much to pop a Land Raider first turn (not likely at over 12"), but to take out a lighter vehicle and provide area denial. The MM is a unique heavy weapon in the sense that rather than being there to shoot stuff, it's there to create a 12" no-go zone for enemy vehicles, because who in their right mind would drive up to a multi-melta? This tactic isn't very effective for normal Tac Squads, because it usually involves one turn of movement at the bare minimum to get into position. However, for an infiltrating tac squad, they're already in position, so the MM can threaten from Turn 1. And if, as a smart opponent would, they keep their vehicles away, you probably have an infantry squad in range for the tacs to shoot at.

DarkHound wrote:
I'd prefer:
Cato Sicarius, 200
Command Squad, Jump Packs, Champion, Flamer, 225
5 Sternguard, 2 Lascannons, 155
5 Terminators, CML, 230
10 Tacticals, Combi-Plas, Plas, ML, Rhino, 225
10 Tacticals, Combi-Melta, Melta, MM, Rhino 220
10 Tacticals, Flamer, ML, Razorback w/ TL-LCs, 245

Just noting the cost for sternguard is off and the Command Squad can not have jump packs, only bikes.

OT: Similar to Roboute's advise, any forward placing tac squad gets a MM. Since I drop pod mine they tend to be even closer than infiltrating units. The effect is the same, vehicles tend to high-tail it away unless the enemy assaults the squad before they can fire.

Roboute wrote:Now Infiltrating ... that's where Sicarius can do something nobody else can.

I'll agree that Sicarius is ideal in a list with some Drop Pods (if Infiltrate is unnecessary that game, give a Pod Counter Attack), but disregarding the other abilities in favor of Infiltrate is wasteful. If you just want to Infiltrate, Shrike can get an Assault Squad a first turn charge. Combine that with a couple Drop Pod Meltas and some Landspeeder Storms, and he's got a far better Alpha Strike than you.

Infiltrating will not always be useful. Sicarius is useful because you will not always be Infiltrating.

To Veldrain, I'm certain the Sternguard's values are correct. 125+15+15 is often times 155. As for the Jump Packs, I've been reading the Blood Angel's book too much.

Veldrain wrote:OT: Similar to Roboute's advise, any forward placing tac squad gets a MM. Since I drop pod mine they tend to be even closer than infiltrating units. The effect is the same, vehicles tend to high-tail it away unless the enemy assaults the squad before they can fire.

This, but infiltrating Tacs are even better because they count as stationary in the first game turn.


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DarkHound wrote:I'll agree that Sicarius is ideal in a list with some Drop Pods (if Infiltrate is unnecessary that game, give a Pod Counter Attack), but disregarding the other abilit]ies in favor of Infiltrate is wasteful. If you just want to Infiltrate, Shrike can get an Assault Squad a first turn charge. Combine that with a couple Drop Pod Meltas and some Landspeeder Storms, and he's got a far better Alpha Strike than you.

Infiltrating will not always be useful. Sicarius is useful because you will not always be Infiltrating.

To Veldrain, I'm certain the Sternguard's values are correct. 125+15+15 is often times 155. As for the Jump Packs, I've been reading the Blood Angel's book too much.

I wouldn't say I disregard them per se. As I said, Counter-Attack can be useful sometimes. I'm just biased toward infiltrate because it makes the squad "feel" different in play, rather than making them a bland ol' Tac Squad with +1 vs. tanks or +1 attack when charged. If I were going for a competitive Marine alpha strike, I wouldn't be playing Sicarius.

And I'll have you know, I often find that 125+15+15 is, in fact, 314. The kaleidoscopic giraffe to my left doesn't agree, but who listens to him anyways?

While on the topic of Sternguard, seeing a squad of 5 with 2 lascannons saddens me greatly. I know it's not a bad way to go, but Sternguard are way too cool to be sitting at max range and plinking away at tanks. I run my Sternguard in a 10-man squad, podding down to unleash disciplined waves of special ammunition under the direction of Captain Agemann (my Lysander stand-in). Competitive? Sorta-ish. Fun? Definitely.

So I gave Cato a go, giving inflitrate to a 10 man tac squad with plasma gun and mm, and rhino for a territories game. I popped them on top of an objective in one corner of the board and locked it off from my opponents rhinos. Seemed cool, worked pretty well, but I feel like I could have ran my rhino over there first round anyways, and just gone with a captain.

Can a tac squad infiltrate while loaded on a dedicated transport? o_O

No, that's covered on page 75 of the main rulebook.

Atari, that's not a bad assessment. Cato requires a list tailored to using his abilities, and you can't quite build it. The preferred list I wrote is still far from ideal.

I must ask: why would you bring a Captain?

I was confused since Atari mentioned a Rhino with the tacs.

They can take a dedicated transport, they just can't be embarked in it when they Infiltrate. The effect is that you deploy an empty Rhino in your zone, and the Tactical Squad is somewhere up in midfield.

DarkHound wrote:No, that's covered on page 75 of the main rulebook.

Atari, that's not a bad assessment. Cato requires a list tailored to using his abilities, and you can't quite build it. The preferred list I wrote is still far from ideal.

I must ask: why would you bring a Captain?

I would do something like this:

Cato Sicarius 200
6 Sternguard (combi-melta x3, Drop Pod) 200
Dreadnought (MM, HF, Extra armor, Drop Pod) 165
10 Tactical Marines (combi-flamer, melta, MM, Drop Pod) 210
10 Tactical Marines (plasma, ML, Rhino) 215
5 Scouts (combi-melta, PF) 110
LS Storm (multi-melta) 60
LS Typhoon (HB, Typhoon missiles) 90
Autolas Pred 120
Autolas Pred 120

Total: 1500

I would enjoy playing this list in a friendly game, though it's not anything approaching competitive. The general idea is to hit your opponent with more first turn threats than he can deal with, forcing him to react to you. You'll have the Storm w/ Scouts, Sternguard w/ Sicarius and Dreadnought in his face first turn, plus probably an infiltrating Tac Squad to deal with as well (the Drop Pod is there to let you bring in both elites on Turn 1). The predators and typhoon give you a firebase that is either AV13 or mobile enough to avoid return fire (though your opponent should be focusing on the threats nearest to him anyways). One Tac Squad remains backfield to hold an objective. The list is definitely geared toward anti-mech, but includes enough anti-horde with the Sternguard and some flamers to function against infantry. The list could also be balanced with a bit more tweaking.(it's a 5 minute list).

DarkHound wrote:No, that's covered on page 75 of the main rulebook.

Atari, that's not a bad assessment. Cato requires a list tailored to using his abilities, and you can't quite build it. The preferred list I wrote is still far from ideal.

I must ask: why would you bring a Captain?

In regards to a captain, with what I have its usually a captain or a librarian. When I personally have fielded a librarian they've never done a whole lot, but my captain seems to hold his own and at least kill some stuff in melee each time.

AtariAssasin wrote:In regards to a captain, with what I have its usually a captain or a librarian. When I personally have fielded a librarian they've never done a whole lot, but my captain seems to hold his own and at least kill some stuff in melee each time.

How do you run your librarian? He is by far the most cost-effective (and most effective overall IMO) generic Space Marine HQ, but you have to use him right. He isn't a CC beatstick like the captain, but his abilities can have a powerful effect on the battle.

I've used my librarian with Null Zone and Avenger, but my opponents tend to just stay away from whoever hes attached to. I guess i could run him as an independent character to get his abilities off but idk.

AtariAssasin wrote:I've used my librarian with Null Zone and Avenger, but my opponents tend to just stay away from whoever hes attached to. I guess i could run him as an independent character to get his abilities off but idk.

If your opponents are avoiding whoever he's attached to, then he's doing his job! If he scares people that much, use him to threaten enemy assault units into staying away from an otherwise tempting target. Not to mention Null Zone is situational, but when it works it really, really works. If you play a Daemon player or someone who relies on TH/SS termies, you'll be grateful he was there.

Roboute wrote:Cato Sicarius 200
6 Sternguard (combi-melta x3, Drop Pod) 200
Dreadnought (MM, HF, Extra armor, Drop Pod) 165
10 Tactical Marines (combi-flamer, melta, MM, Drop Pod) 210
10 Tactical Marines (plasma, ML, Rhino) 215
5 Scouts (combi-melta, PF) 110
LS Storm (multi-melta) 60
LS Typhoon (HB, Typhoon missiles) 90
Autolas Pred 120
Autolas Pred 120
Total: 1500

I like that list, and it isn't so far from competitive. Most people have lofty ideas about what competitive means. All a competitive list needs is a plan that works. You'll see competitive lists with Bjorn or Lesser Daemons, despite how individually ineffective they are. If it works towards a plan, it is valuable.

However, there are bits of the list that don't work towards the plan. I don't like the Typhoon because it doesn't have target saturation. The Storm is the same armor value, but it will be engaged at a different range. Right role, wrong unit. I'd also take a strong look at the Sternguard. Right role, but I think other things could do it better. As it stands, if you were smart, you could do well in a tournament.

Anyway, I don't know that you'd be in a position to appreciate the Librarian, Atari. Just taking him gives you a huge advantage against several armies: Eldar and Daemons chief among them. A Captain has no hope of making his points back, nor does a Chaplain. A Librarian, by sheer inexpensiveness, comes the closest in that regard. Couple that with countering the hardest deathstars, and he's practically an auto-include.

DarkHound wrote:I like that list, and it isn't so far from competitive. Most people have lofty ideas about what competitive means. All a competitive list needs is a plan that works. You'll see competitive lists with Bjorn or Lesser Daemons, despite how individually ineffective they are. If it works towards a plan, it is valuable.

However, there are bits of the list that don't work towards the plan. I don't like the Typhoon because it doesn't have target saturation. The Storm is the same armor value, but it will be engaged at a different range. Right role, wrong unit. I'd also take a strong look at the Sternguard. Right role, but I think other things could do it better. As it stands, if you were smart, you could do well in a tournament.

Anyway, I don't know that you'd be in a position to appreciate the Librarian, Atari. Just taking him gives you a huge advantage against several armies: Eldar and Daemons chief among them. A Captain has no hope of making his points back, nor does a Chaplain. A Librarian, by sheer inexpensiveness, comes the closest in that regard. Couple that with countering the hardest deathstars, and he's practically an auto-include.

Thank you for your confidence. I haven't played truly competitively in a while, so I tend to assume that there's a tier of uber-players out there waiting to jump me if I were to enter a tournament. At least, that's what the internet would have me think.

Great points on the Typhoon and Sternguard. They both work well for me in the list I currently run, but wouldn't function as well in this list. I would tend to argue in favor of the Typhoon despite lack of target saturation, simply because its long range and mobility let it avoid a large amount of fire that would normally be directed at it.

In regards to the Librarian, I'm aware that hes the usual go-to, and I appreciate his well-rounded...ness. However, at my flgs everybody plays SMs, theres a few others, but its mainly the same stuff. Rather than using my usual list which I think does pretty well for the stuff i have, i like to try other stuff, hence using cato. I like the captain simply because in my experience he always preforms, and has only died once, as opposed to my librarian, who either does nothing or dies. Also, I don't feel like i have enough of a breadth of units where points matter so much to me, and I don't mind putting some extra units into a captain that wouldnt really go anywhere else other than like vehicle upgrades.

In regards to Cato's ability to give Infiltrate to a Tac squad, if you then combat squad that unit, can both halves infiltrate seperately? Or is it only one half?

Librarians are nice but the reason I like them is the hood which to me is a must against GK and SW. With that said a Captain properly equiped, and with a properly equiped comand squad ,is complete badass.