Starting WHFB (40k 10+ years) ... What ARMY would YOU use and WHY?

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**Lord_Thanatos**

Okay Dakkanauts,

I have decided to double my gaming pleasure and join the realm of WHFB.

I am curious as to what Armies YOU play and WHY? All you magnificent generals out there must set aside your desire to issue orders and, instead, make a sales pitch so that a new player will join the ranks of your fantasy realm.

Someone care to convince me to become a Vampire Count?

Should I open my soul to Chaos? What about those Daemons?

I could help mankind preserve its existence against the myriad of threats out there?

What about beasts: skaven, lizards, ogres, dwarfs (do they belong in this list)?

Are the ancient Tomb Kings destined to rule the realms?

Elves? Are they light-weight faeries or magical masters of the universe?

Let me know...

**Brewmaster_D**

I have several armies at my disposal (Ogres, Skaven, Vamps and High Elves), however the one I always come back to when I'm looking for an engaging game of warhammer are my High Elves. They're paper thin and hit like freight trains, so it really is a finesse army. If you play them poorly, the army disintegrates rather quickly, but play them well and you'll hear your opponent grumble about those "^%$#ing Elves". It's the challenge that draws me, and the complexity of playing them.

Having said that, it might help if you tell us what type of playstyle draws you. There's quite a bit of tactical diversity among the Fantasy armies, so I'm sure there's one that is a perfect fit!

D

**Lord_Thanatos**

Brewmaster_D wrote:I have several armies at my disposal (Ogres, Skaven, Vamps and High Elves), however the one I always come back to when I'm looking for an engaging game of warhammer are my High Elves. They're paper thin and hit like freight trains, so it really is a finesse army. If you play them poorly, the army disintegrates rather quickly, but play them well and you'll hear your opponent grumble about those "^%$#ing Elves". It's the challenge that draws me, and the complexity of playing them.

Having said that, it might help if you tell us what type of playstyle draws you. There's quite a bit of tactical diversity among the Fantasy armies, so I'm sure there's one that is a perfect fit!

D

I prefer tough defensive core units, anvil-like. Think of Alexander the Great's phalanxes.

Support those units with a devastatingly fearsome, mobile "hammer" like the Companion cavalry.

I don't mind being outnumbered, but I want the opponent to fear moving anywhere near my close combat general. Think Mephiston or Abaddon the Despoiler if this was 40K. This allows one to control terrain with a "threat range."

Magic doesn't have to be decisively offensive; I prefer strong defensive magic.

Finally, there must be cheap, fast units available. Canon fodder is designed to slow on opponent for a turn. If a unit can move 8 inches but has an enemy unit 3 inches away, then the unit can truly only move 3 inches without exposing its rear or flank. Think light cavalry rather than light infantry.

I have loved 40K for years and can play all types of tactics. But in a general sense, the above is what I prefer to build my armies around. If all these things are not available in a particular Army (as I suspect each one has strengths and weaknesses) I would like to know before I purchase all the models.

Thanks for your response.

**Draigo**

For tough core its hard to ignore WoC. WHile I play counts I can see them fitting many of your interest well. Not many things more fearsome then a tzeentch chosenstar/warshrine combo spearheading your force with the tough marauders.

Ogres are also increadibly hardy with a gutstar.. I mean str 6 3 wound hammer dropping in you oppoenents lap isnt ever that much fun from my pov after being smacked with em. Though not quite as mobile.

Lizards have some solid stuff and good magic. Slann and saurus can do some work. Temple guards are solid.. all in all a good army.

Tomb kings are slow but have some neat stuff but dont fit the strong core. Neither do vamps. VC power lies in their lords/heroes, rares and such.

Chaoes daemons while reviled earn a mention as bloodletters are prob one of the best core out there and flamers are amazing.

Cant specualte on beasts and skaven have a horde feel but have some cool tricks.

Dont know much about dwarves never playe em or against.

Either way good luck to you sir!

**HoverBoy**

Lizardmen have dinosaurs, and the infamous hipnotoad.
Join us and serve the great plan.
Also DINOSAURS.

**WhiteZombie**

I love me some Lizardmen, you can blow anybody off the table with the best magic in the game (tooled up Slann and Engine of the Gods). Or you can wipe stuff off the board with some of the toughest units available (old ones are one man (or lizard) wrecking machines.

**biccat**

My go-to force is Empire, because I love the idea of ordinary men standing against the ravages of the Old World.

Giant spider climbing out of the woods flanked by lumbering trolls and giants? Grab the halbards boys.

Daemons of Chaos materializing in the midst of battle with raging mutated spawns running towards the lines? Send in the Knights!

Undead dragons and ranks of skeletons? Break out the cannons.

My other army is O&G, because I love hordes of goblins. They're not a great army, but they're loads of fun. Especially when you roll poorly for animosity and have to charge through your own fanatics.

edit: sounds like the army you're looking for is Chaos. They've got hard anvils (warriors of Tzeentch) and the hardest hammers (Khorn chosen) and their generals are scary good (although my level 2 wizard will eat him for lunch).

**Tjyven**

I play Orcs and Goblins. Cheap, strong and tough core units and/or cheap and cannon fodder core units. Yes, i'm talking about the Orcs and the Goblins! When reading your long list about tactics I got pretty excited because O'n'G are perfect for what you want to do. Night Goblins cost 3 points each and they got some cool stuff, like Netters which will reduce a units -S1 or Fanatics who will smash anything to pieces. So in other words, you can field a 40 Night Goblins with FC and Netters for about 160 - 180 points only AND they can pick bows for no extra price!
Orcs are really tough. With T4 and S4 in the first round of combat you're gonna dish out a lot of damage and if you upgrade them to Big'Uns they will have S5 in the first round of combat AND WS4! Black Orcs are amazing Hammer-units as well -- S7 in the first round of combat and then they will fight with S6.

About cavalry, O'n'G got - Boar Boyz who are a little bit slower but their charge is really scary. Wolf Riders are cheap and they are really fast so they are great warmachine hunters and/or flanking units. Then we also have Spider Riders - they are a little slower as well but they can climb over walls so they're pretty darn cool.

O'n'G probably got the cheapest heroes and lords in the entire game as well, and Wyverns are "cheap" (cheaper than other dragons) so they're a lot of fun. But even though O'n'G heroes and lords are pretty cheap they aren't bad, they're actually pretty darn good.

Another awesome rule is that ALL Orc units, heroes and lords have the Choppa special rule which increases your S with 1 in the first round of combat. Even if you use magic weapons they still count as Choppas.

Personally I play with Orcs a lot but I usually field one Night Goblin unit to act as cannon fodder or fire support since I always field them with bows. My tactics are pretty simple, my Black Orcs hunts my opponents biggest and toughest unit and my Big'Uns hunt the choppiest and meanest unit. I also field Orc Chariots and try to flank with them to support my regular Orc Boyz.

S7 in the first round of combat will even remove all Armor from a Chaos Warrior with shield, and with about 30 - 40 S5 attacks any unit will have a hard time standing up after that, especially if they aren't that well armored.

**VikingScott**

I started Empire because I didn't know anyone else who played them and...

We are but men.

Rock.

**biccat**

Muppas wrote:When reading your long list about tactics I got pretty excited because O'n'G are perfect for what you want to do.

While I love O&G, I just don't see how they fit what the OP is looking for, particularly:

Lord_Thanatos wrote:I prefer tough defensive core units, anvil-like. Think of Alexander the Great's phalanxes.

Support those units with a devastatingly fearsome, mobile "hammer" like the Companion cavalry.

I don't mind being outnumbered, but I want the opponent to fear moving anywhere near my close combat general. Think Mephiston or Abaddon the Despoiler if this was 40K. This allows one to control terrain with a "threat range."

Magic doesn't have to be decisively offensive; I prefer strong defensive magic.

Nothing in the O&G codex is really a "tough defensive core unit." Most stuff just doesn't have the staying power you need. T4 with a 5+ and parry is the best you can get.

While the Black Orcs are fearsome (and devastating), they're not mobile. I wouldn't be too worried about taking a charge from an Orc cavalry, especially compared to Bret. Knights or tricked-out Blood Knights.

Ditto for the Orc Warboss (Wyvern or not), he simply doesn't compare to VC or Chaos lords.

And I'm not sure I'd classify Orcs as having "strong defensive magic."

**Son_Of _Deddog**

I think either Warriors of Chaos would suit best. Totally rock hard core troops, very good light infantry and some of the best heavy cavalry in the game. I wanted to recommend Dwarfs, because they have very tough infantry and can shut down an opponants magic phase, but they lack the fast, mobile units you specify. You could consider Beastmen. They have some decent core units and while they don't have cavalry, they do have cheap chariots..

**cowpow16**

Woc you don't need a lot in terms if numbers to lay the hurt down.
I mean i usually run about 60 ish warriors at 2.5k they are quite elite but hey when you have to show some unit that even a small unit of warriors is deadly and just butcher anything pretty much.

You can get a lovely 3+ armor save and a 5+ ward in cc on a tz warrior. So that is pretty resiliant.
Khorne not so resiliant but who needs to be if you cut down all your opponents befor they get to strike back.
Also lots of cool infantry , cav, monsters, and all other sorts of cool models.

**powerclaw**

What you're describing really does match WoC best. Infantry which is either numerous or elite to the bone, knights that make lesser men tremble in their boots, and cheap chaos hounds to tie up your enemies.

In addition, chaos champions are not only dead-ard and choppy, but if they slay an enemy champion in glorious single combat then they get to roll a table to see how the Chaos Gods reward their deeds (+1 attack, +1 armour save, a ward save, etc).

Add to that towering shaggoths, hell-fire belching daemonically possessed cannons, shrines on wheels that boost units and fight like monsters, wizards on flying disks, two-headed dragons, and daemonic generals.

The only question remaining is which god to bow to (each of which adds an added layer of choice to any army build).

No dinosaurs though...

**Brewmaster_D**

Hey Lord_Thanatos!

I'm going to side with the masses here and say that Warriors of Chaos are a good pick. Somebody also mentioned Ogres, and I agree with that as well - some of the best redirecting units in the game right now. They also have a side benefit of being relatively cheap to start due to their high point cost per model.

D

**ParatrooperSimon**

I've said it five times and I'll say it again

Dwarfs...join us.... jooooooin us

**Anvildude**

From what you're saying, sounds like you're one of the Ancient Kings of Khemri.

Our Skeletons may not hurt much, and sure, they die rather easily- but they won't stay down for long. A big block of Skellies can easily last for a long, long time, even against something that can easily kill lots of them, simply because they replenish.

Tomb Kings are absolute beatsticks, and ones that you actually don't really want to kill, due to The Curse, and they give their units their own Weapons Skill, making those skellies even harder to kill.

We have really, really good Chariots as Core, meaning you can have as big a Hammer as you want- fast and with Impact Hits, able to be boosted and healed by either Magic Standards or our Priests.

And the Priests! Sure, you have to take at least one with the Lore of Nehekhara, but why wouldn't you want to? More than half the spells will actively heal our units alongside other hugely beneficial effects, like extra move, extra attacks, or 5+ Ward saves- or even giving any unit you want Killing Blow or better. And that healing effect? Not just for the Lore of Nehekhara- if you take Light, all the Augments will heal.

If you want cheap, fast hasslers, look at our Skeleton Horse Archers. Cheap as sand in Nehekhara, fast, and Light Cavalry, with all that entails. You could even give them Entombed Beneath the Sands to have them show up anywhere, unexpectedly.

Speaking of EBtS, our Scorps aren't any slouches either, nor are a lot of our other Animated Constructs, like the Warsphinxes, Necrolith Colossi and Heirotitans- Warsphinxes can be taken as mounts for a lot of our Heroes and Lords, Heirotitans boost magic, and are tough opponents in their own right, and the Colossi, aside from being non-random Giants, can act as mobile Bolt Throwers with CC power as an added bonus.

And our more traditional ('cause we had them first!) Warmachines are nothing to sneer at either. The Casket of Souls is a little tiny Ark of the Covenant of your very own, melting faces and boosting your Spells, and the Screaming Skull Catapult inflicts flaming Blasts that have a chance to send the enemy running for the hills.

All are fairly cheap, and all get healed by Augments. Also? Every one of our Archer units hit on 5+. No matter what. Every. Single. One. Without Fail. Did you move? 5+. They're Skirmishers? 5+. Behind Cover, with some sort of Anti-Arrow spell on them? 5+. Or 4+ if you attach High Queen Khalida, who can add her own Magic Missiles and Poisoned Attacks to the battle.

Tomb Kings don't rush in, hoping to clobber the enemy before they get clobbered themselves. They march relentlessly forward, knowing with full certainty that they will outlast their foes, as they have outlasted Death itself. They are the endless march of Time, the inevitable will of the Desert, and all shall bow before them before the end.

**Nitros14**

Unnatural storm clouds gather overhead, blotting out the pale sun and casting a foreboding shadow across the battlefield. From the twilight the chittering of bats and the bestial howls of wolves fill the air. A chill descends over the land, striking dread into the hearts of mortals that dare stand against this nightmarish host.

Packs of Crypt Ghouls bound forwards, devolved cannibals baying like hounds, eager to feast on the flesh of the living. Shambling hordes of Zombies shuffle forward with lurching steps, wisps of green witchfire playing about their limbs and dragging them forward like demented puppets. Their tattered flesh is blotched and rotted, revealing bloodless veins and unbeating hearts, their lifeless eyes staring mindlessly ahead. Some are little more than skeletons while others bear a terrifying resemblance to the recently deceased.

Behind the Zombies rank upon rank of Skeletal Soldiers march resolutely forward, clutching the bronze swords and shields of old, glowing balefires burning within their empty eye sockets. All that they remember of their past lives is faint echoes of battles fought in ages past. All that they feel is the compulsion to fight and obey their masters as they did so many years ago. Mortals who dare stand against the undead horde are confronted with a ghastly apparition, for what soldier could remain unafraid with the vision of his own death lurching towards him?

Called forth from their rest by the magic of the dead, unquiet spirits roam the twilight fog. Their groaning cries pierce the soul and their chilling touch steals the life energy of the living, as if their fingers were daggers made of ice. Writhing with a pulsing nimbus of black energy, Wraiths and Banshees flow amidst the Undead throng, seeking the warmth of mortals. Mortal weapons merely pass through these supernatural horrors and their presence drives the living insane with dread.

Clad in the ancient armour of distant centuries Wights, Grave Guard and Black Knights plucked from their barrow graves march implacably forward, step after step, in a silent mockery of the Knightly Orders of Men. Their weapons are corroded with time and dusty with the years, held together by an evil magic that suffuses their being with an eerie green glow. The mere touch of their blades is enough to snuff out the life of a living man and they are sustained by a seething malevolence powerful enough to ignore blows that would mortally wound a living creature.

Behind these creatures the witchfires of the army highlight the haggard-faced Necromancers cloaked in the skins of men. With their magical urgings bone knits and flesh fuses as the fallen of the shambling Horde stumble back to their feet to resume the advance with lipless moans. The stench of death hangs over the army like a pall.

At the centre of this hideous parody of a Mortal army stands the most powerful and dangerous abomination: the Vampire Lord. It is this nightmare creature whose will has summoned the dead from their graves and it is its will that has bound the army together. Vampires are unbelievably ancient beings. Created 5,000 years before present day by Nagash they embody Necromancy: The magic of the past, of withered flesh and faded times. With unnatural strength, speed and toughness sucked from the souls of their prey the Vampire is a lethal Warrior-Sorceror that strikes a gripping fear into any who confronts it. Seeking dominion over all living things, a Vampire Lord raises its army from ancient battlefields and dusty tombs to overthrow the rule of mortals and reign over the survivors as an undying, merciless Emperor.

Few face the Vampire Counts and survive. The few who do are forever haunted by the memory.

If you like massive hordes of fodder and a few outrageously powerful characters (Vampire Lords can easily run 500+ points on foot and Vampire Heroes are stronger than the lords of many armies) Vampire Counts are a pretty damn fun army.

**Anvildude**

Ancient warriors stir from sandy tombs, called once more to serve their Kings on the field of battle. They march in lockstep, pulled from the Realm of Souls by incantations uttered from withered, deathless lips. Bronze spearheads glint in the sun, and sheaths of blessed arrows peek over ivory shoulders as the Tomb Kings march to war.

Statues as old as the mountains groan to life, ever vigilant, ever watchful of their lords. Carved in the images of ancient Gods, they are the Chosen, souls of warriors whose skill can only be contained by hewn stone and massive size. Sphinxes march, answering the will of their riders, breathing flames as hot as the desert sun over those who don't flee in terror at their massive size. Idols of ancient magic stride forward on pillars of dressed granite, their baleful gazes turning foes to ash as their holy forms provide a conduit of power from their Gods.

Faithful steeds interred with their masters now canter as fleshless skeletons, knowing no longer the fear of battle- only knowing, as their riders do, the glory of marching again. The same bony hooves beating the ground before the rumbling wheels of legions of chariots, ready to answer their King's commands and trample the foe into the dust.

Screaming skulls fly overhead, trailing holy flames, propelled by the twang of ancient tendons. Colossi of bone and stone pull back on great bows, unleashing fiery bolts of destruction on the ranks of men and beasts aligned against them, their stony hides ignorant of all but the strongest of attacks.

A stone casket, guarded by the greatest of warriors seethes with the souls of the restless dead, guided by ancient hands and channeled by incantations as old as time. Spells uttered over days, weeks, unerring, unfailing in their delivery, each syllable placed with holy reverence pushing back the grip of Death and raising more souls to fight.

A Queen, beloved of Asaph, kept as beautiful as the day she was struck down by the treachery of her vampiric cousin, now guides the arrows of her armies against those cursed creatures, her own fingers sheathed in talons dripping venom.

And at the head of this implacable army of the dead, the Tomb King, striding forward wielding a weapon that cuts the soul itself, his sons riding behind in mighty chariots and on massive War Sphinxes, filled with a terrible anger for those who awoke them before the proper time, but ready to reclaim their kingdom from those who dare usurp it.

The true masters of Death, for they do not fear it, not any longer. The Tomb Kings march to war.

**Lord_Thanatos**

Greetings fellow Warlords!

I must say that the myriad of sales pitches are amazingly passionate. What great fun!

I am glad that someone actually asked me what type of army I envisioned playing so that my original post was made a bit clearer.

At this point I am thinking the following:

The two Fantasy Armies that best (based upon the comments in this thread) suit my anticipated play style appear to be Warriors of Chaos and Lizardmen.

Chaos Dragons or Dinosaurs? Both appear to have tough core units, strong (and fast) hammer units, with exceptionally strong characters. Am I correct that the Chaos leaders are probably stronger than the lizardmen, but that the lizardmen are better than WoC in both magic and shooting?

The two Fantasy Armies that best (based upon the comments in this thread) suit my sense of role-playing are the Vampire Counts and Tomb Kings. I get to choose between identifying as a Ancient Vampire Lord or an Ancient Lich King? Hell YES ! Both of these sound utterly awesome!

To be honest, I expected merely a poster or two to share their thoughts in this thread. But, so far, there have been 15 or so and everyone appears to be having a great time with their chosen Fantasy Army.

I must continue to ponder....

Am I wrong to narrow my choice to WoC, Lizards, VC, and TK? Be sure to speak up if I have been misled thus far. Are you as passionate as the posters thus far, great generals??? What am I overlooking?

Finally, some of the "sales pitches" to date are fantastically magnificent! Good job Dakkanauts!

**Draigo**

Well TK and VC play very different then the lizards or WoC. WoC tend to be smaller forces of very strong units. Lizards you can mess around with a few types of lists.

TK and VC use their troops to tarpit and then let their rares and speacials hammer hard. VC magic is more supportive to keeping the units healed/regen and require a character with Lore of Vampire or their army has issues. Mindless undead need a caster or they cant march. Raising hordes is fun but can be expensive. lol TK and VC both have the newer dexes. So with that have some very cool new kits like the mortis engine!

**cowpow16**

Simple answer a chaos hero can take on a lord level character from other armies.
From experience DE, empire, bret, WE, orc, skaven and tk lord heads hang on the rack of trophies that my exalted hero (who happens to be my bsb has slain over his days of battle.

You may not know that woc army has an extensive selection of monsters to choose from. Ranging from trolls (which can be core choices mind you), Dragon ogres, ogres, Shaggoths, giants, dragons, repulsive chaos spawn, the feared hellcannon.

Then there are such things lie the khorne lord on juggernaut which is a completely bamf model:
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440108a&prodId=prod1290097

Fluffy lists can be made very easily as well as making effective low model count armies.
Not to mention it will be a good looking army with its silent ranks of relentlessly marching chaos warriors and marauders. Marching onward to victory or death which ever the dark gods command.
Ask yourself are you up for the dark road ahead slaughtering mortals men, elves and everything else that stands between you and the glory that the gods will bestow upon you.

**DukeRustfield**

I think he's describing Dwarfs fairly well.

They define anvil. You can make some really crazy combat lords. They have really good war machines and ranged options.

They have the best defensive "magic" in the game.

They can use stuff like Slayers for hammers. They have some pretty crazy rules and on a cost-basis, are very powerful. Or you can use as your hammer...Hammerers.

The standard dwarf warrior is very cheap. But he's not cannon fodder, because they're also really hard to hurt for their cost. T4/WS4 and heavy armor for 8 pts.

A Dwarf Lord and a Chaos Lord are very similar. The CL has better stats, but is quite a bit more expensive. If you give them both all you can give, it will be a long fight.

And all Dwarfs have incredible LD and rarely break or run from fights. Some are Stubborn/Unbreakable.

I think people don't dwell on Dwarfs much because it's an old book and Dwarfs have been around so long in so many different fictions. And usually, people seem to take advantage of their crazy ranged weapons and just blow people to bits before they can get to them. But they can totally be played as a (slowly) grinding army.

**Warboss ZanZag**

Even so my army isen't really what your looking for, i wanna pitch in with what your missing out on instead

Here is my contribution.

An evil force unlike any other is watching and waiting. They are impatient, yet they bide their time. They are scheming, their nefarious plots stretch unseen across all lands. They are everywhere, yet they remain hidden. They are a heinous race that over the long centuries has brought low ancient Dwarfholds, grinding down that proud race to but a fraction of its former glory. In the past they have contaminated the temple cities of the Empire, the greatest human nation of the Old World, to total starvation and near ruin. And they are planning for worse to come...

Across the surface of the world alliences are severed, plagues are spread and wars are started - all orchestrated by a shrouded and impalpable menace that lughrks undetected under the very feet of those they conspire to destroy. They are the skaven and they seek nothing short of complete mastery of the world.

The Skaven. An endless horde of rats at your disposal, where you cut down one there is thousands to take it's place.

And even so if it's a horde army it doesn't have to be, you can make a army of highly mutated Rat Ogres, braindead beasts who rip apart any that stands in it's way! They have Monstrous Creatures as the Hell Pit Abormination a scientific monster created by Clan Moulder, so highly mutated that it can't even be caled a rat anymore. Send hundreds of slaves to the death in name of victory, use War machines from Clan Skryer! Cannons that spew Warpstone fire at your enemys. Run them over with the Doomwheel, Smite them with the powers of the Grey Seers! Everything is possible! Only sanity holds you back!

Take your place in The Under-Empire and scheme your way to power! Inslave humankind and kill everyone and everything that stands in your way! All this! For the Horned Rat!

**biccat**

cowpow16 wrote:Simple answer a chaos hero can take on a lord level character from other armies.

I would put my Wizard Lord against your Chaos Hero any day of the week.

Lord_Thanatos wrote:Am I wrong to narrow my choice to WoC, Lizards, VC, and TK? Be sure to speak up if I have been misled thus far. Are you as passionate as the posters thus far, great generals??? What am I overlooking?

You're not wrong. You should check out the Battle Reports section and see how the armies perform.

**cowpow16**

That hero is such a beast that it's actually funny. I'm not saying he will kill something built to kill heroes or lords but oh does he ever lay the hurt down.
He's 200 points and is bsb so woot he does lots of good for my army.
How did you kit out your lord?

Definitely check battle reports and look at army lists to see what is being used often and seeing if you like the models right? I mean there is no point in playing woc or any army if you don't like the look of them I mean seriously the time and effort that go into an army is best spent on models you enjoy

**biccat**

cowpow16 wrote:That hero is such a beast that it's actually funny. I'm not saying he will kill something built to kill heroes or lords but oh does he ever lay the hurt down.
He's 200 points and is bsb so woot he does lots of good for my army.
How did you kit out your lord?

Wizard Lord - 175
Van Horstmann's Speculum - 30

Admittedly, it's slightly more expensive.