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Hey everyone, after much contemplation my friend and I pitched in and bought Island of Blood. As you could tell from the title I chose the High Elves, so I was curious what units to possibly invest in for The future, ill probably get the book tomorrow, thanks.

Heres my recipe for collecting a HE army

Step 1, Get enough core to fill out the 25% min requirement for me that usually means 1 huge block of spearmen (50-60) or multiple blocks of archers at 10 strong.

Step 2,Amass enough special choices to fill up your 50% allowance, White lions,Sword masters or Phoniex Guard are the best choices if you must have some cavalry get dragon princes DO NOT waste money on silver Helms,Shadow warriors or Chariots and if you simply must have some cavalry get a box of dragon princes.

Step 3 Get yourself a BSB model and convert your IoB griffon into an eagle (Griffons are a horrible choice for a big critter)

Step 4 Profit!!

one word...

TECLIS

Teclis will lose you friends.
jubear is right, special is where it's at. Get more swordmasters. Do not buy the battalion, you won't use half of it as silver helms are a daft choice and bolt throwers take away points you should be spending on more boss infantry.
If you can pick up more iob models on ebay or bits sites, do it.
Get some eagles. That griffon to eagle idea is a good one. In fact, you should just get another iob set. Your skaven friend will need moar clanrats for sure and it's cheaper than buying all that stuff separately. The reavers are a bust though, run them as dragon princes or sell them.
Each special infantry choice has its merits, and they all cost the same, so proxy and play around a bit before you buy. Phoenix guard are probably your best bet vs skaven though.
my min core at 2k is 21 spears with cmd and 2*13 archers. Not the best probably but 500 points on the dot. 20 seaguard fills your core requirement for 1000 points.
Mages and battle standard for characters.

dralith wrote:Teclis will lose you friends.

I don't know muc about High Elves, so was wondering. Why is that? Is he that OP/ ?
Please elaborate

Jubear wrote:Heres my recipe for collecting a HE army

Step 1, Get enough core to fill out the 25% min requirement for me that usually means 1 huge block of spearmen (50-60) or multiple blocks of archers at 10 strong.

Agreed. I would go with 50 spearelves or two blocks of 30-36. This includes any characters you have to add. Do not go too heavy on rank bonuses, the other guy can and will afford more. MSU elves still work but are not truly effective.

Jubear wrote:
Step 2,Amass enough special choices to fill up your 50% allowance, White lions,Sword masters or Phoniex Guard are the best choices if you must have some cavalry get dragon princes DO NOT waste money on silver Helms,Shadow warriors or Chariots and if you simply must have some cavalry get a box of dragon princes.

Hell yes. The elite infantry are where it is at for High Elves. Take White lions in a horde of 30, you dont need ranks because of stubborn. Take Phoenix Guard in a block of 20-25 for a consumate tarpit. Swordmasters are best in MSU max size 14. However do not write off other units too readily. Shadow Warriors cost too much to do anything but suck. Silver Helms can be a good tarpit because of the armour save, though Phoenix Guard are better value. Dragon Princes are too expensive to consider taking in the numbers required to have effect. 5 Dragon Princes do nothing but poke a few holes then lose the next round. 10+ Silver Helms is affordable can effectively flank or hold.
Chariots are essential. Team up chariots with infantry blocks and charge together, by bringing in as many models as possible you can clip the enemy with the chariot and face off with your infantry. This will provide much greater concentration of force than infantry alone and you need concentration of force to win. i.e. inflict too many casualties to enable effective return attacks. I prefer Tiranoc chariots as you need the impact hits above all else and the bow shots are useful, however Lion chariots benefit you in a long slog.

Jubear wrote:
Step 3 Get yourself a BSB model and convert your IoB griffon into an eagle (Griffons are a horrible choice for a big critter)

Yes to the BSB. Tool him up for defence, dont bother with a magic banner.
I have heard no rumours to this effect yet but if GW follow current patterns the Griffon may get a heavy discount and possibly be made a hero mount. Hero on discounted griffon might be more viable than what you get now. I would be reluctant to carve up a very nice model when the HE army book is not too far away.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Warboss ZanZag wrote:

dralith wrote:Teclis will lose you friends.

I don't know muc about High Elves, so was wondering. Why is that? Is he that OP/ ?
Please elaborate

Very much so. Because when Teclis was written up irresistable and miscast were not the same and magic was less deadly. Teclis irresistably casts on any double and ignores a miscast a turn, this is big. So every turn Teclis can dump dice on a big spell and the opponent has to suck it up when he (very likely) rolls a double, then Teclis laughs off the miscast. Then Teclis fires off all his other spells on low dice relying on +4 casting, his loremaster ability and the extra power dice he generates from his staff. So he swamps whatever defences you have left taking no greater risk than any other high level mage but with a lot more ease.

Also he still only counts a natural if (double six) as miscast...

Wow, I don't even know where to start here.

How about the beginning?

Core:

To me, this one is simple. With S3 attacks across the board, you need to have realistic expectations about what your core can and can't do. While the idea of a horde of 50 spears may seem like a good idea outwardly, the reality is that if you put them up against any dedicated combat unit, they're *still* going to lose combat if unsupported. It is also an enormous, unwieldly block that takes up a huge portion of your battle line and divides the troops that can actually accomplish something, and provides your opponent a silly amount of points that can be obtained with one cast of Dwellers Below or Panic test gone wrong.

For a beginner, I'd suggest a combination; a couple small units of archers, 10 to 14 strong, in order to clear out enemy chaff units. Good targets for them would include redirectors like fast cavalry and skirmishers, and once those are off the board, they can start helping you whittle down big blocks of low toughness troops. I'd then take one unit of spears 30-35 strong, in ranks of 5. The unit has a relatively small footprint, and has enough ranks to help our hard hitting elites break steadfast. Be realistic with this unit - if you shove it in to some Chaos Warriors, it's going to get torn apart.

At the end of the day, while there are ways to make our core more effective, all of them are magical which is never going to be a sure thing. If you base your strategy around getting a Mindrazor off on spears, there will always be times where you fail to cast/roll low for the winds or your opponent scrolls it at the critical time.

Special:

We have 3 types of elite infantry, ranging from extremely defensive (Phoenix Guard) to extremely offensive (Swordmasters). It is important to keep this in mind when choosing lores on your mages. You want the lores to help the troops you choose where they are weak rather than where they are strong. For example, T7 Phoenix Guard seems like it would be an unkillable unit. It pretty much is, but they still have a hard time producing casualties.

Rule of thumb here is if you have an offensive lore like Shadow, take defensive troops like Phoenix Guard and Lions. If you have defensive lores like Life or Light, take offensive troops like Swordmasters and Lions.

Regardless of how you cut it, the elite infantry will form the cornerstone of your army in most cases.

Orlanth wrote:5 Dragon Princes do nothing but poke a few holes then lose the next round. 10+ Silver Helms is affordable can effectively flank or hold.

This is terrible advice. A unit of 5 Dragon Princes is such incredible value, and is one of the most versatile units we can field for the cost. They're fast, hit hard and have armour to weather things that would otherwise crumple our elites. You can't charge them into a ranked unit unsupported, or else you'll end up jaded like the fellow above. What you can do is threaten small to medium sized supporting units, threaten the backline, support the main line troops with flank/rear charges and best of all if your opponent has a unit with the Banner of Eternal Flame, prepare for the ultimate tarpit.

The Chariots are also not useless. They are fragile, yes, but if paired with the lore of life and its attribute lifebloom, they become unexpectedly survivable. They also have an unparalleled ability to put force into a tiny amount of frontage. For example, if you charge in with Swordmasters, and they take up the front of the unit, all you need is a corner to get the chariot charge in, and it gets all of its attacks. Use this in situations where you need more offense to tip the scales in your favour.

Silver Helms really only have one purpose: Character delivery. In every other way, investing 7 more points in Dragon Princes will always pay dividends. +1 Attack, Leadership, Initiative and Weaponskill, plus a ward vs. flaming attacks. Where they Silver Helms excel is in providing a cheap bunker for Princes and Nobles, who can soak up wounds and make sure the characters get in to combat on your terms. If this style interests you, I suggest you check out the now famous "Cavalry Prince" thread over on ulthuan.net.

Rare:

Eagles, Eagles, Eagles. It takes some time to learn how to use them, and you can fast forward your learning by reading battle reports by more experienced players. These are hands down one of the best value redirectors in the warhammer world.

Depending on the style of list, and core selections, Bolt Throwers are also viable. Fragile, yes, but combined with archers and proper lore choice they give us a long range presence that is tough to discount. Remember that most of the shooting in warhammer that is considered extremely good is only 24" range.

Hope this helps!

D

Quite, I was going to say I find my dp very useful. The thing with bolt throwers is that in my (limited) experience you want two or three of them, which gets expensive quickly and means you effectively have to build around them. As an aside, if you want to learn he, I can't recommend ulthuan.net highly enough. It's a great resource, even if I do just lurk.

No argument that teclis looses friends, but he will also win games.... lol. but if you are playing friendly games, avoid him would be good advice.

Brewmaster_D wrote:
To me, this one is simple. With S3 attacks across the board, you need to have realistic expectations about what your core can and can't do. While the idea of a horde of 50 spears may seem like a good idea outwardly, the reality is that if you put them up against any dedicated combat unit, they're *still* going to lose combat if unsupported. It is also an enormous, unwieldly block that takes up a huge portion of your battle line and divides the troops that can actually accomplish something, and provides your opponent a silly amount of points that can be obtained with one cast of Dwellers Below or Panic test gone wrong.

Its situational. Sometimes blocks of 30-35, sometimes one big block of 50, both require immediate support. No 50 spearelves are not going to stop Saurus or Chosen, but 50 will whittle down bulk infantry especially if you combo with a chariot or flanking Swordmasters.

To kill Chosen et al take a horde of 30 White Lions.

Brewmaster_D wrote:

Orlanth wrote:5 Dragon Princes do nothing but poke a few holes then lose the next round. 10+ Silver Helms is affordable can effectively flank or hold.

This is terrible advice. A unit of 5 Dragon Princes is such incredible value, and is one of the most versatile units we can field for the cost. They're fast, hit hard and have armour to weather things that would otherwise crumple our elites. You can't charge them into a ranked unit unsupported, or else you'll end up jaded like the fellow above. What you can do is threaten small to medium sized supporting units, threaten the backline, support the main line troops with flank/rear charges and best of all if your opponent has a unit with the Banner of Eternal Flame, prepare for the ultimate tarpit.

150pts before you add any command for five models, thats 10 S3 pokes per turn (and you mentioned something in the above post about S3 not being good enough) after the charge fails to break the opposing unit. a cheap flank unit in a couple of ranks will be able to get steadfast. Supporting units tend to cost a lot less and will in time defeat you. Silver Helms on the other hand have the numbers to remove ranks at a reasonably affordable price and are an effective tarpit against S3 infantry without having to guess where the Banner of Eternal Flame is, never mind if one is there at all.

Most of all a Silver Helm unit means a mounted BSB and mage option adding +2 armour to both plus mobility. This can make a big difference, and the unit is big enough to keep Look Out Sir.

Brewmaster_D wrote:
The Chariots are also not useless. They are fragile, yes, but if paired with the lore of life and its attribute lifebloom, they become unexpectedly survivable. They also have an unparalleled ability to put force into a tiny amount of frontage. For example, if you charge in with Swordmasters, and they take up the front of the unit, all you need is a corner to get the chariot charge in, and it gets all of its attacks. Use this in situations where you need more offense to tip the scales in your favour.

Covered this.

Orlanth wrote:Its situational. Sometimes blocks of 30-35, sometimes one big block of 50, both require immediate support. No 50 spearelves are not going to stop Saurus or Chosen, but 50 will whittle down bulk infantry especially if you combo with a chariot or flanking Swordmasters.

To kill Chosen et al take a horde of 30 White Lions.

There are almost no situations where a 50 strong unit of spearmen outperforms the flexibility that taking 35 spears and 12 archers brings to the table. The horde of spears is only going to be effective versus units that cost significantly less than them. So while you're messing around with a block of 50 slaves with your spear horde, he's using the other two units of 50 to tie down your elites and he still has change left over to invest in a bunch of rat darts which are going to make your life difficult because you've invested most of your core points in big unweildly blocks of spears.

In an all comers environment, your opponent will happily tarpit, redirect and bombard that unit while he focuses the rest of your army due to your lack of support.

Also, once those Chosen get the Ward, even a horde of Lions bounces off them. Do not engage at all costs. Best counter for chosen is throwaway units: Eagles, Reavers, Dragon Princes

150pts before you add any command for five models, thats 10 S3 pokes per turn (and you mentioned something in the above post about S3 not being good enough) after the charge fails to break the opposing unit. a cheap flank unit in a couple of ranks will be able to get steadfast. Supporting units tend to cost a lot less and will in time defeat you. Silver Helms on the other hand have the numbers to remove ranks at a reasonably affordable price and are an effective tarpit against S3 infantry without having to guess where the Banner of Eternal Flame is, never mind if one is there at all.

That's why I put emphasis on choosing the right targets. Their mobility allows them to put out a huge threat radius, allowing you board control. These guys are not meant to be treated as a main combat unit, but rather a supporting combat unit, and chaff clearer. They help you establish control of the board, and later can add high quality attacks to combo charges. If you doubt their value, go read the latest battle report in the thread in my signature. At 150 points, the value of this unit is incredible if you know how to use them. Charging them in to ranks on their own is definitely not the right approach. We have other tools to deal with ranks.

Also, I never buy command for these guys - why would you? An argument could be made for a musician I suppose.

At a minimum entry cost of 200+ points, a unit of 10+ silver helms is now enough of a points investment to make you think twice about throwing it away, and the 10 silver helms has less hitting power than 5 Dragon Princes. Do you really think 5 models is going to make the difference between fleeing and holding? The number of scenarios where this will hold true are hardly worth the extra points investment for the unit.

Most of all a Silver Helm unit means a mounted BSB and mage option adding +2 armour to both plus mobility. This can make a big difference, and the unit is big enough to keep Look Out Sir.

See my comments regarding Character Delivery. Agree here. This is an entirely different purpose however, and cannot be compared to a 150 point unit.

The chariot comments weren't meant to be directed at you, apologies!

D

Just a quick opinion regarding 50+ units of spearmen the reason I prefer these guys In large blocks (bus formation) is they can win the fight against other big bus blocks most of the time and will have the ranks to actually break the enemy unit.

It is also helpful in getting the most out of mind razor and other buff spells as more models are being buffed.

I'm not typically one to do this, but I've already invested a ton of energy into this debate in another thread. I really suggest anybody that is having trouble choosing core check this out:

Archers vs. Spears

Big blocks of spears are a) crazy expensive b) ineffective against anything that isn't way cheaper than them and c) unwieldly and *extremely* vulnerable to flank charges. A single casualty starts to cut in to the attacks, and in nearly any given situation, a combat that is won by these guys will also be won by a cheaper, 5 wide unit of 35.

The spears also drastically increase your vulnerability to redirection by reducing the number of archers you have to clear out redirecting units and being an enormous redirectable unit themselves.

It's just not a competitive choice - there's too many units out there that will just roll in, laugh at your S3 attacks and thank you for putting so many points in one spot for them. With a unit of 5 Dragon Princes and an Eagle, I could pin that unit indefinitely, or worst case have it chasing its tail all game. Remember that a unit engaged on two fronts may not combat reform.

D

The problem I have with massed archers is that you need the book of hoath/shadow magic to get the most out of them. And I am not a fan of running the book of hoath every game as it just pisses folk off.

Yes spearmen are over priced but they are still they only unit in the book that can be fielded in hordes without sucking up half your points, and sometimes you just have to pay the points if you want access to a steadfast unit.

Also in my meta 35 of just about any unit is not going to cut it I frequently have to play against blocks of 100 slaves or night goblins so I tend to op for one big unit rather then a few dainty little units of 35.

As a HE player you are always going to be out numbered but thats what eagles are for.

Brewmaster_D wrote:I'm not typically one to do this, but I've already invested a ton of energy into this debate in another thread. I really suggest anybody that is having trouble choosing core check this out:

Archers vs. Spears

Big blocks of spears are a) crazy expensive b) ineffective against anything that isn't way cheaper than them and c) unwieldly and *extremely* vulnerable to flank charges. A single casualty starts to cut in to the attacks, and in nearly any given situation, a combat that is won by these guys will also be won by a cheaper, 5 wide unit of 35.

The spears also drastically increase your vulnerability to redirection by reducing the number of archers you have to clear out redirecting units and being an enormous redirectable unit themselves.

It's just not a competitive choice - there's too many units out there that will just roll in, laugh at your S3 attacks and thank you for putting so many points in one spot for them. With a unit of 5 Dragon Princes and an Eagle, I could pin that unit indefinitely, or worst case have it chasing its tail all game. Remember that a unit engaged on two fronts may not combat reform.

D

Ok lets have this out.

Why take 50 spearelves?

1. Sometimes you want two blocks of spearelves about 30 strong, sometimes you dont. This is far from an always option.
2. Archers are stupid expensive for what they are and what they do. At 9pts a model spearelves are the best deal option to have a large enough army. You get a dribble of S3 attacks at +3pts a model, its hard to factor in more without making the unit unwieldy over expensive and horribly vulnerable.
3. The clincher: You must take 25% core and will want to maximise special. In a standard 2k game 50 spearelves and the Banner of Arcane Protection comes to 500pts on the nose. Your 25% done. Taking less spearelves is often a mistake because that means you need core points to fill with another unit, after making the first block of spearelves of meaningful size the second unit must be MSU. Sometimes this is what you want, but in 8th not often and not with High Elf core choices.
4. Archers dont clear out redirection units unless in high expense blocks. To kill outright five fast cavalry of T3 with arrows you need c12 wounds which will be about c18 shots, thats 216pts for an iffy redirect (50% chance). Use eagles or magic to do the job.
5. Yes you do lose attacks from the first casualty, wirth high Elves this isnt waste its called efficiency. even at 9pts elves cannot afford guys hanging around at the back providing steadfast or rank bonuses they cost too much for that, 50 elves means all have the potential to poke, of course it will not always work out that way but even if a single elf remains on the rear rank he pokes. You dont lose horde from incomplete rear ranks.
6. Big untis means you have to kill the lot before your get the VP. Thisd can be tricky.
7. So you will be "will just roll in, laugh at your S3 attacks and thank you for putting so many points in one spot for them." Thankyou say you do this with an uber unit probably costing even more, maybe maybe not at 9pts/model can by quality in many armies. You better pray I dont have a life mage with +2S or T to cast on them, and worse yet you really better pray I am not taking Shadows this game. Seerstaff to guarantee: Occams Mindrazor, cast on lots of dice because its important. My 40ish attacks are going first possibly with rerolls to hit, but now they are S8. Who is laughing now? Note that if I accept the rolling xStar unit squarely with a spearelf block this will be what I and other High Elf players am going to be doing.
8. (ctd) Now any High Elf unit can do this, but with magic the more the better due to synergy, also the opponent will have the same idea and will have major augment or hex spells out there to support big block on big block. This is why Banner of Arcane Protection is important, its also why size matters. Occam's Mindrazor is scary enough for any high Elf unit, but with 50, you wont have much left over, 30 is more risky. Assuming the opponent lives with sufficient numbers and holds (all xStars will have holding ability) he will dispel the Mindrazor in his own turn and continue the combat.
9. If you cant beat them, join them, Reform and be steadfast all game. Its wasteful but doable, given even a little support the spearelves will hold in column 8 to 10 ranks deep last the whole game and not give away VP by still holding at turn 6. You just cant do that with 30 models, you can with 50.
10. If used defensively you arent really redirectable, you are a tarpit and a ascary one if the opponent doesn't (or does!) know what magic you will call down on them in your own turn. And at 50 strong you will likely last to cast. 30 isnt as scary, 30 can be cleared on the opponents turn charge, or reduced by missile fire to a low enough amount, or be holding with so few models that if they do get a nasty augment spell it will be a gimic or a waste.

Orlanth wrote:Ok lets have this out.

You're on!

1. Sometimes you want two blocks of spearelves about 30 strong, sometimes you dont. This is far from an always option.

There are almost not situations where I want two blocks of spearelves. If I was going for two blocks, I'd be much more inclined to take a horde of archers. The 30" range is much more of an advantage than people give it credit for. You can shoot first turn, and you get a free round of shooting against most 24" shooters. Do not underestimate this; if you do the math, that extra 6" of range is a 56% increase in threaten-able area. The key here is that Archers as opposed to spears, archers can put their force (albeit crappy force) where it is needed, and do so without taking return attacks.

2. Archers are stupid expensive for what they are and what they do. At 9pts a model spearelves are the best deal option to have a large enough army. You get a dribble of S3 attacks at +3pts a model, its hard to factor in more without making the unit unwieldy over expensive and horribly vulnerable.

You'll get no argument from me regarding the cost. However, they are actually quite good at dealing expensive wounds. Give them the banner of eternal flame, and you have a very serious threat for any monsters out there. 30 shots is 2.5 wounds a turn on a hellpit. All you need to reliably take that guy down with your elites is a couple wounds off of it.

I'll submit the following game as proof:

http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=747051#p747051

In the later turns of the game, his horde of archers puts the final wound on a bloodthirster.

3. The clincher: You must take 25% core and will want to maximise special. In a standard 2k game 50 spearelves and the Banner of Arcane Protection comes to 500pts on the nose. Your 25% done. Taking less spearelves is often a mistake because that means you need core points to fill with another unit, after making the first block of spearelves of meaningful size the second unit must be MSU. Sometimes this is what you want, but in 8th not often and not with High Elf core choices.

So spears are the only way to achieve minimum core? You're stuck in the 8th edition mindset that you need big blocks to survive.

Here's some evidence that this premise is mistaken:

http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=742125#p742125

4. Archers dont clear out redirection units unless in high expense blocks. To kill outright five fast cavalry of T3 with arrows you need c12 wounds which will be about c18 shots, thats 216pts for an iffy redirect (50% chance). Use eagles or magic to do the job.

Ever heard of panic tests? I have 20 archers in my list, and have no problem taking out a unit of chaff a turn. Archers also give you a great place to bunker mages, which is critical for a list like mine. You've got magic as solutions to a lot of things - magic is unreliable by nature, and should be looked at as a way to supplement your strategy, not *be* your strategy.

5. Yes you do lose attacks from the first casualty, wirth high Elves this isnt waste its called efficiency. even at 9pts elves cannot afford guys hanging around at the back providing steadfast or rank bonuses they cost too much for that, 50 elves means all have the potential to poke, of course it will not always work out that way but even if a single elf remains on the rear rank he pokes. You dont lose horde from incomplete rear ranks.

If you take a 6 rank unit to your flank, you pretty much auto lose. How is this efficient? If you're investing in a horde of spears, you're clearly banking your strategy on big blocks, which means you'll have few drops. This would not be difficult to orchestrate. You're giving up reliable steadfast on a unit that costs nearly 500 points without characters for what? 25 extra S3 attacks if engaged in the front? Only a novice opponent would let you engage him in the front with that block.

6. Big untis means you have to kill the lot before your get the VP. Thisd can be tricky.

Dwellers Below, Flames of the Phoenix, concentrated force on the flanks, artillery templates. The fact that you have so many points in spears means that if I can redirect that unit, a huge portion of the rest of your army is unsupported. Forget your spears, I'll take that first, then orchestrate a combo charge on your huge, unwieldy block.

7. So you will be "will just roll in, laugh at your S3 attacks and thank you for putting so many points in one spot for them." Thankyou say you do this with an uber unit probably costing even more, maybe maybe not at 9pts/model can by quality in many armies. You better pray I dont have a life mage with +2S or T to cast on them, and worse yet you really better pray I am not taking Shadows this game. Seerstaff to guarantee: Occams Mindrazor, cast on lots of dice because its important. My 40ish attacks are going first possibly with rerolls to hit, but now they are S8. Who is laughing now? Note that if I accept the rolling xStar unit squarely with a spearelf block this will be what I and other High Elf players am going to be doing.

This goes both ways. You've got one big unit to buff? I've got one big unit to hex. You're looking at half the equation. You're also banking on reliably casting. You can't base the premise of a list on "When I get this spell" - design the list to function well, and function better when you get spells off. If you have a book of Hoeth mage, well, then I'd probably just charge my unit of 5 Dragon Princes in against him and kill him first. That or I'd just *threaten* a charge with their greater movement, forcing you to pre-emptively buff that unit while I pick off the rest of your unsupported troops. This is the thing with big blocks; you've invested so many points in them that it now becomes imperative that you protect your investment. In my list, I can lose a unit and not skip a beat.

8. (ctd) Now any High Elf unit can do this, but with magic the more the better due to synergy, also the opponent will have the same idea and will have major augment or hex spells out there to support big block on big block. This is why Banner of Arcane Protection is important, its also why size matters. Occam's Mindrazor is scary enough for any high Elf unit, but with 50, you wont have much left over, 30 is more risky. Assuming the opponent lives with sufficient numbers and holds (all xStars will have holding ability) he will dispel the Mindrazor in his own turn and continue the combat.

What does the Banner of Arcane protection do against hexes, buffs and removes from play spells? Mindrazor lasts for a player turn, and is not remains in play - there is no dispelling it, except when it is cast.

9. If you cant beat them, join them, Reform and be steadfast all game. Its wasteful but doable, given even a little support the spearelves will hold in column 8 to 10 ranks deep last the whole game and not give away VP by still holding at turn 6. You just cant do that with 30 models, you can with 50.

High Elves are hands down, the worst attrition army in the game save maybe wood elves. If you reform a unit of 50 spears to be steadfast to preserve points a) you're assuming that with them held in place nothing else gets to engage them ever - shaky premise at best with the huge footprint that unit has and b) That while you have a huge points investment tied up in place by a unit much cheaper than it, that you don't lose the game anyway due to the rest of your unsupported army getting chewed up. T3 elves with a 5+ armour save simply cannot play the attrition game. If you are suffering enough casualties that a 50 strong unit will hold whereas a 35 unit won't, more often than not, you are in the process of losing.

10. If used defensively you arent really redirectable, you are a tarpit and a ascary one if the opponent doesn't (or does!) know what magic you will call down on them in your own turn. And at 50 strong you will likely last to cast. 30 isnt as scary, 30 can be cleared on the opponents turn charge, or reduced by missile fire to a low enough amount, or be holding with so few models that if they do get a nasty augment spell it will be a gimic or a waste.

This is probably the worst one. Explain to me how, exactly you play defensively with spears? At least with archers you've got firepower to force the opponent to come to you. Again, you're banking your entire strategy on magic. With shadows, you have one spell that can do significant damage at range - pit. With life, you have one as well - dwellers. These are the two lores you seem focused on - tell me how you create the imperative for your opponent to come to you? I can promise you, you'd be marching toward 90% of opponents, and the ones that don't will be able to outmaneuver you drastically.


Now for a little Mathammer. Let's see what happens to a block of 50 spears if they get charged by a unit of 24 warriors with frenzy and halbreds - 6x4. This unit is less points than you, and core as well.

50 spear attacks, 6.25 wounds after hits, wounds and armour saves (less if he's tzeentch with banner of rage)
25 warriors attacks, 14 wounds

You hold on steadfast.

Round 2

36 spear attacks, 4.5 wounds
25 warrior attacks, 14 wounds.

You're no longer steadfast, you're gone.

Yes, I picked one of the harder units in the game to put up against your spears, but a) they still cost less than your block and cut through them like butter and b) in an all comers environment these units exist and will exploit your weakness

Rule of thumb here is don't horde a unit unless you can put out more pain per frontage than an opponent can put back in. There's simply too many units out there that can make much better use of the frontage you give them.

D

Brewmaster_D wrote:

Orlanth wrote:Ok lets have this out.

You're on!

I enjoy a friendly challenge.

1. Sometimes you want two blocks of spearelves about 30 strong, sometimes you dont. This is far from an always option.

There are almost not situations where I want two blocks of spearelves. If I was going for two blocks, I'd be much more inclined to take a horde of archers. The 30" range is much more of an advantage than people give it credit for. You can shoot first turn, and you get a free round of shooting against most 24" shooters. Do not underestimate this; if you do the math, that extra 6" of range is a 56% increase in threaten-able area. The key here is that Archers as opposed to spears, archers can put their force (albeit crappy force) where it is needed, and do so without taking return attacks.

Spearelves are good enough for main duty IMHO. In games about 2k points I either will go with two large blocks of spearelves about 30 strong or one at 50. My strategy is based around the models I have not the optimums. To take 2x 30 spearelves in a smaller games adds points into core. I might be able to do that so long as I still max out special.

2. Archers are stupid expensive for what they are and what they do. At 9pts a model spearelves are the best deal option to have a large enough army. You get a dribble of S3 attacks at +3pts a model, its hard to factor in more without making the unit unwieldy over expensive and horribly vulnerable.

You'll get no argument from me regarding the cost. However, they are actually quite good at dealing expensive wounds. Give them the banner of eternal flame, and you have a very serious threat for any monsters out there. 30 shots is 2.5 wounds a turn on a hellpit. All you need to reliably take that guy down with your elites is a couple wounds off of it.

I am sorry but I cannot get over the price. If you compare it to a 6pt Bretonnian, a 3pt Goblin, or an 8 pt Empire crossbowman the high elf archer fares poorly. Yes you have decent range, so do Brets, but they cost 6pts. Sure its -1 to hit but they cvan sit and exchange fire all day with you. I know which I would back. Druchii take a 'step' forward and double tap, Empire match your range but offset the accuracy with power. All do this for less.
30 archers can be nasty I agree but not 360+pts of nasty, far from it. To take archers they must have a role, not general damage dealing and I prefer other items to provide that role. Reaver Bow, Bolt throwers and chariots. I can explain the chariots but later or will get distracted.

I'll submit the following game as proof:

http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=747051#p747051

In the later turns of the game, his horde of archers puts the final wound on a bloodthirster.

I have seen archers fare very well but hitting on 2+ vs a large target (old rules). I thought it an aberration, the archers were always shooting at half range and yet were never charged. I have seen Bloodthirsters die to unusual things, in one case a Tau Ethereal with honour blades. Its nice when it happens but I dont fancy the archers chances of really being points effective in most games.

3. The clincher: You must take 25% core and will want to maximise special. In a standard 2k game 50 spearelves and the Banner of Arcane Protection comes to 500pts on the nose. Your 25% done. Taking less spearelves is often a mistake because that means you need core points to fill with another unit, after making the first block of spearelves of meaningful size the second unit must be MSU. Sometimes this is what you want, but in 8th not often and not with High Elf core choices.

So spears are the only way to achieve minimum core? You're stuck in the 8th edition mindset that you need big blocks to survive.

MSU does work and I beleive in it, I am 'stuck' in no mindset other than to make the most of the % split in 8th. To me special is where its at, High Elves are designed around special choices with non standard allocation to permit them. That is now gone so I must hotfoot around to squeeze the points because the models are so expensive.
I get my MSU fix in special backed up with big blocks of spearelves or White lions, I also advocate two 30 spearelf blocks too which is hardly relying on large units isnt it.

4. Archers dont clear out redirection units unless in high expense blocks. To kill outright five fast cavalry of T3 with arrows you need c12 wounds which will be about c18 shots, thats 216pts for an iffy redirect (50% chance). Use eagles or magic to do the job.

Ever heard of panic tests? I have 20 archers in my list, and have no problem taking out a unit of chaff a turn. Archers also give you a great place to bunker mages, which is critical for a list like mine. You've got magic as solutions to a lot of things - magic is unreliable by nature, and should be looked at as a way to supplement your strategy, not *be* your strategy.

Ever heard of generals leadership, or the BSB? I dont rely on panic tests to work except on the flank, neither should you.
I take firepower to remove redirectors as firepower to wipe, not firepower to panic, the latter is too risky. Nice if it happens yes but...
I count in the general and BSB automatically because if they are trying to redirect import stuff like 50 spearelves it will in all likelihood be in the bubbles of both sides command.

5. Yes you do lose attacks from the first casualty, wirth high Elves this isnt waste its called efficiency. even at 9pts elves cannot afford guys hanging around at the back providing steadfast or rank bonuses they cost too much for that, 50 elves means all have the potential to poke, of course it will not always work out that way but even if a single elf remains on the rear rank he pokes. You dont lose horde from incomplete rear ranks.

If you take a 6 rank unit to your flank, you pretty much auto lose. How is this efficient? If you're investing in a horde of spears, you're clearly banking your strategy on big blocks, which means you'll have few drops. This would not be difficult to orchestrate. You're giving up reliable steadfast on a unit that costs nearly 500 points without characters for what? 25 extra S3 attacks if engaged in the front? Only a novice opponent would let you engage him in the front with that block.

If the block is your main battle line centre flank turning it is going to be hard. 50 spearelves would have to be your main deployment, or at least one of two.
As explained later inn point 9 you have enough elves to forfeit horde and go deep if you like. 7x7 (with last elf out the back) is good for crushing *most* normal infantry blocks with enough ranks to remove steadfast.

6. Big units means you have to kill the lot before your get the VP. This can be tricky.

Dwellers Below, Flames of the Phoenix, concentrated force on the flanks, artillery templates. The fact that you have so many points in spears means that if I can redirect that unit, a huge portion of the rest of your army is unsupported. Forget your spears, I'll take that first, then orchestrate a combo charge on your huge, unwieldy block.

You are casting Flames on my army of Ulthuan, you traitor!! Ok, the big nasty spells effect anyone. Remember 50 spearelves comes with Banner of Arcane Protection, this is why. In all likelihood you have characters in the unit too, this means Amulet of Light and or Ironcurse Icon.
Dwellers is a catchall for anyone, but if anyone can dispel it the guys from Saphery can, and the 5+ ward save will help also.

7. So you will be "will just roll in, laugh at your S3 attacks and thank you for putting so many points in one spot for them." ..... pray I am not taking Shadows this game. Seerstaff to guarantee: Occams Mindrazor, cast on lots of dice because its important. My 40ish attacks are going first possibly with rerolls to hit, but now they are S8. Who is laughing now?

This goes both ways. You've got one big unit to buff? I've got one big unit to hex. You're looking at half the equation.

If that were true xStar units would not exist. hex spells are less frequent, in less comon lores and generally less potent than augments. Also again High Elves have magic prortection banners at reasonable prices. by giving you one vbiable target I am warding against more of your spells as you are overly tempted to try and hex a magically protected unit than one that is not.

You're also banking on reliably casting. You can't base the premise of a list on "When I get this spell" - design the list to function well, and function better when you get spells off.

With Seerstaff you can, and a large dice drop will cast it. Mage will likely be down a wound but when needs must you get the big spell on the big unit and hit big. It gets less affordable if you don't have something big to augment big. Taking a Seerstaff level 2 mage to get Occams Mindrazor to back up 50 spearelves is not a waste of points.

That or I'd just *threaten* a charge with their greater movement, forcing you to pre-emptively buff that unit while I pick off the rest of your unsupported troops. This is the thing with big blocks; you've invested so many points in them that it now becomes imperative that you protect your investment. In my list, I can lose a unit and not skip a beat.

Where do you get the idea I have no points left. My big unit costs 500pts on the nose so I have maximum points to spend on Characters, Rare and Special with no waste.

8.
What does the Banner of Arcane protection do against hexes, buffs and removes from play spells? Mindrazor lasts for a player turn, and is not remains in play - there is no dispelling it, except when it is cast.

You have a point on hexes if they don't do damage, just degrade stats other than W. Removes from play spells do damage (magic resistance stops 'damage' not 'wounds' page 72) so magic resistance will help.

9. If you cant beat them, join them, Reform and be steadfast all game. Its wasteful but doable, given even a little support the spearelves will hold in column 8 to 10 ranks deep last the whole game and not give away VP by still holding at turn 6. You just cant do that with 30 models, you can with 50.

High Elves are hands down, the worst attrition army in the game save maybe wood elves. If you reform a unit of 50 spears to be steadfast to preserve points a) you're assuming that with them held in place nothing else gets to engage them ever - shaky premise at best with the huge footprint that unit has and b) That while you have a huge points investment tied up in place by a unit much cheaper than it, that you don't lose the game anyway due to the rest of your unsupported army getting chewed up. T3 elves with a 5+ armour save simply cannot play the attrition game. If you are suffering enough casualties that a 50 strong unit will hold whereas a 35 unit won't, more often than not, you are in the process of losing.

Versatility, versatility, versatility. If I deploy 50 spearelves is normally in horde, that is efficient against other horde units which are proving popular and common. A second tactical option need not be efficient itself to be efficient. So a dedicated steadfast unit needs to be cheap enough to provide bodies for the count, a dedicated tactical unit must do at least one thing well and another thing reasonably well. This is where spearelves are with steadfast. Sometimes you need it and by extension need to strip it from the other guy. If an attack column five wide and ten deep is needed to break the enemy then that is what I do.

10. If used defensively you arent really redirectable, you are a tarpit and a scary one if the opponent doesn't (or does!) know what magic you will call down on them in your own turn. And at 50 strong you will likely last to cast. 30 isnt as scary, 30 can be cleared on the opponents turn charge, or reduced by missile fire to a low enough amount, or be holding with so few models that if they do get a nasty augment spell it will be a gimic or a waste.

This is probably the worst one. Explain to me how, exactly you play defensively with spears?

By being between the opponent and victory.

At least with archers you've got firepower to force the opponent to come to you. Again, you're banking your entire strategy on magic. With shadows, you have one spell that can do significant damage at range - pit. With life, you have one as well - dwellers. These are the two lores you seem focused on - tell me how you create the imperative for your opponent to come to you? I can promise you, you'd be marching toward 90% of opponents, and the ones that don't will be able to outmaneuver you drastically.

Even if you dont have bows, if they have swords, or spear or teeth and claws etc, they are coming for you.
I am not focused on any lores, except High Magic, but the argument is not personal I am far from the only player here or globally to do the 50 spearelf unit.

Now for a little Mathammer. Let's see what happens to a block of 50 spears if they get charged by a unit of 24 warriors with frenzy and halbreds - 6x4. This unit is less points than you, and core as well.

I have seen your mathhammer, it's loaded. Last time you tried this it was Marauders vs your Archers. So the Chaos player only sends slow unarmoured troops vs Archers do they. Not chaos knights, or warhounds. Meanwhile those warriors are coming may way. How convenient.

You're no longer steadfast, you're gone.

Ok, for a start if I am going to lose that is a good time to not be in attack mode (horde) but defense mode (deep column).

Second you forget this is a High Elf army you are talking about. High Elves support each other, single units matching others is good enough for Chaos. High elves need to coordinate. What would actually happen is that the warriors and spearelves duke it out, many elves die and will be sorely lost. However eagles directed your support while the support (probably MSU Swordmasters) hits you in one flank or other. Sure that is even more points into the mix, and is 'unfair', but High Elves are all about concentration of force, so unit vs unit balance are less important than army vs army. If you match up against spearelves expect to also have to deal with the unit flanking it. The reverse is not necessarily the case due to the superlative mobility hitting power of High Elf elites (which in this case are not cut into by wasting any points over 500 on Core) and careful use of cheap eagles. Points based mathhammer doesnt work with High Elves or Wood Elves in particular as they don't match up unit to unit, not if they want to win they don't. After chewing out your Chaos warriors the elves move on to the next target.

Rule of thumb here is don't horde a unit unless you can put out more pain per frontage than an opponent can put back in. There's simply too many units out there that can make much better use of the frontage you give them.

The real rule of thumb is not to be fixated on fixation. You are taking 50 so you must be using horde not so, even though i stated otherwise it was assumed to be.
50 spearelves allows a lot of flexibility not using it is a waste. Horde being part of the toolbax due to unit size, but not the be all and end all.

Orlanth wrote:If you compare it to a 6pt Bretonnian, a 3pt Goblin, or an 8 pt Empire crossbowman the high elf archer fares poorly.

And a 9 point spear elf is not a 4 point clanrat. What's your point, that other factions have cheaper core?

dralith wrote:

Orlanth wrote:If you compare it to a 6pt Bretonnian, a 3pt Goblin, or an 8 pt Empire crossbowman the high elf archer fares poorly.

And a 9 point spear elf is not a 4 point clanrat. What's your point, that other factions have cheaper core?

That matters less for archer units. What really matters are the BS the missile weapon and from time to time the Ld. WS M S T I they dont matter much unless you move into the realms of melee troops with bows, like Arrer boyz and Sea Guard, which are different from missile troops. Most of the latter are overpriced, Arrer Boyz being a notable exception.

Wow, thanks for all the replies From what im getting mostly and what I'm liking so far are pretty much Phoenix guard/ Swordmasters, then White Lion/ Dragon Princes. How've people done with Bolt throwers? They look really awesome and seem like they could do well when used right.

First thing's first - without context, this entire debate is purely theoretical. I'd like to either see your list, or a battle report detailing how you use it.

With that in mind, I can address several of your points:

I am sorry but I cannot get over the price [of archers]

It's not about whether they are the cost effective versus shooting - it's that they offer a solution to things we would otherwise struggle with. Yes, they're priced high for S3 volume fire, but that doesn't mean we don't need what they can bring to the table. Taking things like bolt throwers and reaver bows will certainly accomplish a similar job - but they do it outside of core. In an army with what is universally accepted to be inferior core choices, why would you push a task that can be handled just as well by core outside of core?

It's the archer's ability to project threat without engaging the enemy that makes them more tactically versatile than spears. Spears are ultimately governed by their movement, whereas archers can put their damage wherever it is needed.

In the examples you gave of shooting vs. shooting - what happens when you go spears versus the same? They have to approach under a hail of fire or risk being rendered ineffective. Bowfire forces the opponents to focus them, or the opponent risks losing their firing base. If you don't create this imperative by fielding all spears, your opponent can focus his fire on your expensive elites.

With Seerstaff you can, and a large dice drop will cast it. Mage will likely be down a wound but when needs must you get the big spell on the big unit and hit big. It gets less affordable if you don't have something big to augment big. Taking a Seerstaff level 2 mage to get Occams Mindrazor to back up 50 spearelves is not a waste of points.

You realize that even with 6 dice, there's only a 25% chance of casting irresistably. Meanwhile, 75% of the time, your opponent is going to scroll that 6 dice spell and end your critical phase where you *needed* that spell to support your unit.

Ever heard of generals leadership, or the BSB? I dont rely on panic tests to work except on the flank, neither should you.

a 12" bubble is a very limited range, and flanks are typically where you'll find plenty of chaff. From a purely points perspective it doesn't seem that lucrative to use 200 points of archers to take out 50 points worth of eagles. The difference is that that 200 points is invested not to earn it's points back in a literal sense, but it's invested for board control.

You are casting Flames on my army of Ulthuan, you traitor!!

The High Elves need to practice on each other in wargame simulations in order to maintain their discipline and training.

Dwellers is a catchall for anyone, but if anyone can dispel it the guys from Saphery can, and the 5+ ward save will help also.

You have a point on hexes if they don't do damage, just degrade stats other than W. Removes from play spells do damage (magic resistance stops 'damage' not 'wounds' page 72) so magic resistance will help.

Magic resistance does not effect dwellers, pit or purple sun. It states specifically in the rules "No saves of any kind"

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/426939.page

Where do you get the idea I have no points left. My big unit costs 500pts on the nose so I have maximum points to spend on Characters, Rare and Special with no waste.

This was more of a reference to having few answers to redirectors. That's what I was referring to by "unsupported". If your only solutions to redirectors are outside of core, then this is wasteful because the role could have been filled by archers, leaving room for more elites.

I have seen your mathhammer, it's loaded. Last time you tried this it was Marauders vs your Archers. So the Chaos player only sends slow unarmoured troops vs Archers do they. Not chaos knights, or warhounds. Meanwhile those warriors are coming may way. How convenient.

How is using two of the most common units in an army loading things? Chaos warriors roll over archers too - I don't have 500 points invested in my archers though. This is my point - you have so many points invested in one unit that it will now attract the attention of things that otherwise wouldn't have bothered with it. You claim that your unit of spears is a good combat unit - I put it up against another good combat unit, they lose and you claim that I'm loading my mathammer. Rank those spears up, and you last one extra turn.

I used the example due to your claim that a unit of 50 spears is an effective combat unit, so I paired it up against what others would agree is an effective combat unit.

Anyway, to really support your argument you're going to have to supply an example of a list where it works effectively. This is all just warhammer in a bubble at this point.

D

DeathBy....Death wrote:Wow, thanks for all the replies From what im getting mostly and what I'm liking so far are pretty much Phoenix guard/ Swordmasters, then White Lion/ Dragon Princes. How've people done with Bolt throwers? They look really awesome and seem like they could do well when used right.

Sorry to 'jack you, though what we are discussing is relevant.

Its NOT Phoenix Guard or Swordmasters, both do different things. You can go Swordmasters or White lions, each are killy and have their advantages and disadvantages.

The bolt throwers do work but are expensive, I only have two in an army up to 5k but then I cannot afford them. Some players take three or four and find the investment worthwhile.

Brewmaster_D wrote:
It's not about whether they are the cost effective versus shooting - it's that they offer a solution to things we would otherwise struggle with. Yes, they're priced high for S3 volume fire, but that doesn't mean we don't need what they can bring to the table. Taking things like bolt throwers and reaver bows will certainly accomplish a similar job - but they do it outside of core. In an army with what is universally accepted to be inferior core choices, why would you push a task that can be handled just as well by core outside of core?

I see that as a reason to not take archers.

Bolt throwers do the heavy lifting in the shooting phase, or you just leave all that to magic.
The Reaver bow is a cannon killer three shots hitting on a 3+, wounding cannon crew on a 2+ means it kills cannon very nicely.
For S3 shooting i like what my chariots provide. Sometimes I do a little bit of a job with one wound caused, namely panicing MSU flankers and stripping a rank of steadfast/rank bonus. I find that the two shots from a Tiranoc might do what a more expensive archer unit does with a modicum of luck. As the chariots are for other purposes I consider those two bow shots freebies, but each represents a salvo of fire and sometimes the number of salvoes of fire you get is worth more than the actual power of those salvoes.
Yes I advocate keeping High Elf shooting out of core.

Brewmaster_D wrote:
It's the archer's ability to project threat without engaging the enemy that makes them more tactically versatile than spears. Spears are ultimately governed by their movement, whereas archers can put their damage wherever it is needed.

I have never been convinced of the price per fire volume of archers. I have a unit of fifteen, for variety, and rarely do I use it.

Brewmaster_D wrote:
In the examples you gave of shooting vs. shooting - what happens when you go spears versus the same? They have to approach under a hail of fire or risk being rendered ineffective. Bowfire forces the opponents to focus them, or the opponent risks losing their firing base. If you don't create this imperative by fielding all spears, your opponent can focus his fire on your expensive elites.

This would be true if High Elves had no other ranged attacks, but they do, they have the shooting listed above (though chariot bowfire will not provoke attack per se), more importantly they have magic. If High elves are having to advance, well they're fast. Missile fiere has always been inferior to melee in all additions of warhammer, odd units and armies not editions are the exception. High elves are not one of those armies, funnily enough neither are most Wood elves, though they ought to be. Dark Elves can make an effective missile army, and yes the trick is to provide it in core.

Sorry with Empire, Dwarves, Dark Elves even modern Bret and Orc builds now outshooting you no matter how many points you (realistically) place in archers you will be forced to attack a shooty army and not the other way around, and those armies will be much more viable than archer heavy High Elves.

Brewmaster_D wrote:

With Seerstaff you can, and a large dice drop will cast it. Mage will likely be down a wound but when needs must you get the big spell on the big unit and hit big. It gets less affordable if you don't have something big to augment big. Taking a Seerstaff level 2 mage to get Occams Mindrazor to back up 50 spearelves is not a waste of points.

You realize that even with 6 dice, there's only a 25% chance of casting irresistably. Meanwhile, 75% of the time, your opponent is going to scroll that 6 dice spell and end your critical phase where you *needed* that spell to support your unit.

Possible drawn out the scroll by then, in 8th you can only have one. Remember I have the pick of Shadows spells, so I would be trying to draw out any dispel items you have early with a nasty threat. I wont need Mindrazor until about turn three. Yes nothing is certain.

Brewmaster_D wrote:
a 12" bubble is a very limited range, and flanks are typically where you'll find plenty of chaff. From a purely points perspective it doesn't seem that lucrative to use 200 points of archers to take out 50 points worth of eagles. The difference is that that 200 points is invested not to earn it's points back in a literal sense, but it's invested for board control.

The bubble goes fuirther than you might think because you can move the bubble left or right as needed and most of all only part of the unit needs be in the bubble. With elf armies being small and large units being large you can swing the leadership reach out a long way.
I never look at the cost of shooting vs target if you get to fire again next turn. However Eagles are the other guys problems, High Elves normally have to deal with five or six strong light cavalry, or worse yet golbins/gnoblars and skavenslaves. Only a big spell or a hard hitting melee unit clears those efficiently.

Brewmaster_D wrote:

You are casting Flames on my army of Ulthuan, you traitor!!

The High Elves need to practice on each other in wargame simulations in order to maintain their discipline and training.

So they got the simulators working in the White Tower again, good. Got to pay a visit.

Brewmaster_D wrote:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/426939.page

Ok , will have to remember that.

Brewmaster_D wrote:

Where do you get the idea I have no points left. My big unit costs 500pts on the nose so I have maximum points to spend on Characters, Rare and Special with no waste.

This was more of a reference to having few answers to redirectors. That's what I was referring to by "unsupported". If your only solutions to redirectors are outside of core, then this is wasteful because the role could have been filled by archers, leaving room for more elites.

Well having archers means having less elites as archers cost a lot, to get archer in in 500pts you aren't going to get that big a spearblock. Thirty wont last long enough to set up the flank charge.

Brewmaster_D wrote:
How is using two of the most common units in an army loading things? Chaos warriors roll over archers too - I don't have 500 points invested in my archers though. This is my point - you have so many points invested in one unit that it will now attract the attention of things that otherwise wouldn't have bothered with it. You claim that your unit of spears is a good combat unit - I put it up against another good combat unit, they lose and you claim that I'm loading my mathammer. Rank those spears up, and you last one extra turn.

You were loading things because you didn't face both archers and spearelves against the same opponent. Spearelves in horde will flatten marauders, chaos warriors will kill both. Chaos warriors may be core, but they aren't basic troops. In any case you need the flank setup. Can you afford MSU elites to babysit archers?
Examples were given, you have MSU elite elf flankers to back you up and whatever magic augment you have. You want me to write up a whole battle report for you? Sorry, you should be able to see the example from what I showed you. Also if I started with thirty five the chaos warriors would break them in one turn, so no option to set up the flank charge.


I hope that archers become cheaper in line with what dark elves pay. If this happens I will reevaluate them, as it standas I cannot afford them or recommend them. Spearelves I recommend and big block spearelves I also recommend.

@Orlanth I didn't mean list wise, I just meant which I thought we're coolest, but thanks for the advice. So Bolt Throwers are the kind of thing you need to take a lot of to make work?

I think so. Six shots is not going to kill units, eighteen shots might.

Bolt throwers just aren't all that powerful except against knights, and High Elf ones are overpriced. I would value them with a price swap with Empire mortars.

Ah alright, makes sense. The six shot thing did sound pretty cool though, just wish they weren't as expensive as a block of spearmen

Unfortunately i'm restricted to mobile, so I can't respond at length, but I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree here.

One important thing though: you may not fire upon cannon crew. You roll to wound on the machines toughness. The crew are just wound counters in 8th edition. Your Reaver bow is wounding on 6's, and would be lucky to kill a cannon shooting at it all game.

I'd still love to see a list that effectively utilizes a unit of 50 spears.