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Made in us
Evasive Eshin Assassin





So, as I've stated long ago, my friends and I wished that Dwarfs had more options in terms of style of play. Below are two examples out of a fandex we made, and I am wondering about their effectiveness/fairness, both separately and together:

New army-wide special rule
- Shield Wall:
a Dwarf unit with no special weapons that is not engaged to its flank or rear is, from its front arc, treated as defending an obstacle (enemies are at -1 to shoot the unit and loose all benefits for charging the unit)

We really want the idea of Dwarfs using shields to work. But right now, shields are basically never a good idea for Dwarfs. Maybe shields just need to be better in every book, but this felt like a step in the right direction.
Side note: every Dwarf infantry unit in the fandex automatically comes with a shield at no point increase (8pts/Dwarf Warriors, 12pts/Hammerer, etc).

- Ironbreakers: 15*pts/model
M3 WS5 BS3 S4 T4 I2 A2* W1 Ld9
Special Rules: Ancestral Grudge*, Shield Wall*, Stubborn*, Resolute
Equipment:
Gromil Armour and Gromil Shield*

*Changes:

*2pts/model more
*+1 A
*Ancestral Grudge also applies to Skaven
*Shield Wall (new rule, see above)
*Stubborn
*Gromil Shield- new equipment, grants +2 to armour

Ironbreakers are, in the current book, just awful. I haven't seen a single unit of them in ages.
I've compared these new guys to White Lions, Sword Masters, Warriors of Chaos and Hammerers, and it seems pretty close.
The main issue, I think, is that Shield Wall helps them so much, since they're already so tough. Maybe gromil shields don't need to be a thing, but even then, I'm not sure if it would still be too much. Really, I'm just not convinced Shield Wall is where it should be.

Thoughts?

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2012/10/17 22:09:25


 
   
Made in us
Killer Klaivex




Oceanside, CA

Shields are so average because great weapons are so cheap, and so good.

Great weapons really should cost another point per model (2 more points for marauders), and suddenly shields have a use.

-Matt

 thedarkavenger wrote:

So. I got a game with this list in. First game in at least 3-4 months.
 
   
Made in gb
Ork-Hunting Inquisitorial Xenokiller





Free shields on warriors doesn't seem that fair. For warriors with for example, great weapons (The only thing to ever give a warrior.), that means your primary unit has a 4 up against shooting and strength 5 in combat and toughness 4...for ten points. Per model.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/10/02 20:23:04


 
   
Made in us
Evasive Eshin Assassin





@Matt: I dunno. I mean, great weapons are ASL, which has to count for something.
That actually has me thinking; small to middling-units with GW don't exist, but I think that'd be the most sensible way to use them, historically.

@blood lance: the only thing shields do in your example is change a 5+ versus missile fire to a 4+. 16% increased durability.
Dwarf Warriors are all-around good, but they are not a super-efficient unit. Not bad, not great.
Also, your comment "the only thing to ever give a warrior" just slams my point home even further:

How can a Dwarf Shield line be made at least as appealing as great weapons?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/10/03 15:12:20


 
   
Made in au
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





I like the idea of the shield wall. I don't play against Dwarves too often and am not familiar enough with their book to give advice on balance issues, but the idea of hand weapon and shield armed dwarves getting a -1 to hit against attacks to their front seems pretty flavourful and fun.

“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”

Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. 
   
Made in us
Evasive Eshin Assassin





I mean, the hand weapon/shield combo is the most common to be seen throughout history, no? I feel like the rules should reflect that beyond "it's the only option for a lot of guys, and it's cheaper".
It should be the best all-around option. The others are designed to do certain things better in certain situations.

 
   
Made in au
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





Warpsolution wrote:
I mean, the hand weapon/shield combo is the most common to be seen throughout history, no? I feel like the rules should reflect that beyond "it's the only option for a lot of guys, and it's cheaper".
It should be the best all-around option. The others are designed to do certain things better in certain situations.


Yeah. Well maybe spear (with or without shield) was more common, but both sets were miles more common than the likes of great weapons. Those were, as other posters have mentioned, specialist weapons given to a small number of elite troops.

“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”

Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. 
   
Made in gb
Worthiest of Warlock Engineers






preston

 sebster wrote:
Warpsolution wrote:
I mean, the hand weapon/shield combo is the most common to be seen throughout history, no? I feel like the rules should reflect that beyond "it's the only option for a lot of guys, and it's cheaper".
It should be the best all-around option. The others are designed to do certain things better in certain situations.


Yeah. Well maybe spear (with or without shield) was more common, but both sets were miles more common than the likes of great weapons. Those were, as other posters have mentioned, specialist weapons given to a small number of elite troops.


This is true. There are still armys out there that are limited to only these basic weapons for there core troops(skaven, empire and vampire counts) many races can know feild entire armys of elite great weapon armed troops....

Free from GW's tyranny and the hobby is looking better for it
DR:90-S++G+++M++B++I+Pww205++D++A+++/sWD146R++T(T)D+
 
   
Made in us
Evasive Eshin Assassin





@Sebster: that's right; spears were the most common weapon pretty much ever.
In terms of medieval warfare, I know they were effective and also pretty cheap, but do you know if one of these factors, more than the other, lead to the spear being...everywhere?

@master of ordinance: and I'm cool with that limitation. Armies should be made mostly of infantry with spears and hand weapons and shields. I just want those options to be the most common because they're overall the best, not because it's all you can give them.

 
   
Made in au
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





Warpsolution wrote:
@Sebster: that's right; spears were the most common weapon pretty much ever.
In terms of medieval warfare, I know they were effective and also pretty cheap, but do you know if one of these factors, more than the other, lead to the spear being...everywhere?


Cost and ease of manufacture was probably a huge factor, but they were also really good weapons - they had reach and they were fast, and it was pretty easy to teach guys to use them in close formation

The thing warhammer and most similar games get into trouble with is that they overstate how hard it is to wound someone - against an unarmoured opponent way more than half are going to ground from a solid attack. Really, the idea that half of all humans that take a spear wound and keep going is way out. Basically, a spear might not impart as much kinetic force as a halberd, but against an unarmoured human it certainly did enough in almost all cases in the real world.

But in the warhammer world where people are assumed to be able to carry on after suffering wounds way more often, a spear is found a little lacking. As a result weapons that just do base damage like spears tend to be sidelined for weapons that do more damage.

@master of ordinance: and I'm cool with that limitation. Armies should be made mostly of infantry with spears and hand weapons and shields. I just want those options to be the most common because they're overall the best, not because it's all you can give them.


Yeah. But with the way Warhammer works that's a tough thing to achieve.

It'd be interesting to see a game played where everything had a 1 point toughness drop. Those greatweapons would start looking overkill unless the target was heavily armoured (as should be the case).

“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”

Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. 
   
Made in gb
Booming Thunderer







Don't know if people are still following this thread but I'm a long time dwarf player so had to throw in my two cents. Shield wall is a great idea, both for fluff and also I'm tired of the hw&s hate, and all my warriors have hw&s because gws are for my special units!

The best isea i thought of for shield wall would be to improve parry to 5+, only to the front and if not engaged in side or rear, keep the parry bonus until the unit loses a round of combat, get it back if you then win a round, perhaps as a special reform move, so you can't change your frontage and regain it. a 5+ ward is nothing to be sniffed at, though it probably won't win you a combat it does what it should, lessen the impact when something big and nasty charges you!

I don't think that would be over the top, balance within an army is far more important than comparing rules/costs between armies and i think this rule would give hw&s units a better defined role within a dwarf army. As for ironbreakers I would take a 3+/5+ over a straight 2+,

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/10/11 15:58:15


 
   
Made in us
Evasive Eshin Assassin





@Sebster: I think that ease of use would fall into the same category as cost of production.
The Hit/Wound thing is a little weird. I always considered the Wound roll to represent actually wounding him, where a Hit is making some kind of contact (which could then be parried, negated by armour, or just plain not draw blood). But you raise an excellent point.

@Monkeys: an improved Parry is certainly simpler. I think my main concern is giving Dwarfs another army-wide rule to make up for a lackluster general one. The hand weapon and shield combo is just Not. Good. If you had another option, you'd generally take it (Skavenslaves with great weapons? Yes).

 
   
Made in gb
Booming Thunderer







Out of interest are there any other armies with great weapon core choices? Dwarves have warriors, longbeards and even crossbowmen, basically ALL their core units, but the only one i can think of in another army is chaos warriors and marauders.

i'm just wondering if the gw vs defensive choice is mainly a dwarf issue or a warhammer wide one?
   
Made in us
Evasive Eshin Assassin





I've said as much before: great weapons are better in nearly every way to hand weapons/shields. Any unit armed with great weapons will beat itself armed with shields.

There is a decent way I've seen shields used; small units of tough infantry hitting the flank to disrupt and add some static combat resolution with a small point investment.
But that's the opposite of what it should be; big units with great weapons and small units with shields.

Really, the no partial points-thing seems to be a big contributor to great weapon usage, when I look at it that way.

Well, to wrap things up (and return to the main topic):

- I think shields should be Better.
- I think Dwarf shields should be Much Better.
- Iron Breakers should be awesome.

 
   
Made in nz
Armored Iron Breaker





Wellington

I do wish shield Dwarfs would be better, but all we can do is just wait to see what out new book has to say, whenever it is released.

I'm not going to hold my breathe though. Besides, I really like the idea of Dwarfs holding big ass axes and maces/mauls.

Banished, from my own homeland. And now you dare enter my realm?... you are not prepared.
dogma wrote:Did she at least have a nice rack?
Love it!
Play Chaos Dwarfs, Dwarfs, Brets and British FoW (Canadian Rifle and Armoured)
 
   
Made in us
Evasive Eshin Assassin





I don't have to wait and see if I come up with a decent rule and have my dwarf friends use that. That's what this forum is for, after all.

 
   
Made in us
The Conquerer






Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

Dwarves could use an accross the board armor increase. And more options to increase their damage output.

Units should all have access to one rune that effects the entire unit.

So a unit could have +1Str, +1 armor, +1M, etc...

That way you could gear your models to be tougher or more damaging as you wanted.

Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! 
   
Made in us
Evasive Eshin Assassin





Giving them some options for units with more than A1 was important in my Fandex (Ironbreakers and Slayers have A2).

More armour might be useful, but my main goal was to give them some different tactical choices. As-is, you basically get to decide how heavily focused into artillery or great weapons your gonna be, and/or whether or not to include an Anvil with some Miners.
Boring.

 
   
Made in gb
Agile Revenant Titan




In the Casualty section of a Blood Bowl dugout

What about Dwarf Shields granting a 5+ Parry Save, instead of 6+. It still would follow the normal rules for Parry, so you need a HW and Shield, for example. However, this increase in effectiveness would perhaps reflect the Dwarves' skill with shield and/or the quality of their shields.

To me it seems great originally, but I can kinda sense it needing a large points increase to be balanced, either that or being broken.

At the very least though, this could be a Special Rule for Ironbreakers. That'd certainly make them more awesome.

DT:90S+++G++MB++IPwhfb06#+++D+A+++/eWD309R+T(T)DM+

9th Age Fantasy Rules

 
   
Made in us
The Conquerer






Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

That could work.

Maybe also give a Tower Shield as a special weapon. Its a shield that gives +2 armor instead of +1.

So you could take a Tower Shield or GWs on warriors/ironbreakers.

Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! 
   
Made in us
Evasive Eshin Assassin





As mentioned above, a 5+ Parry would be a simple way to make a shield wall-concept work.

Also as mentioned above, the idea of a shield granting +2 armour is something I've toyed around with.

Both is too much, I feel.

8pts for a WS4 S3 T4 I2 A1 W1 Ld9 M3 model with a 4+/5+? I don't think it's too insanely crazy. It's pretty cheap and durable, but I still think people would tend to favor 10pts for S5 and a 5+ save.

As for Ironbreakers, 15pts for A2, Stubborn, and a 3+/5+? The math seems to be working out.

...I could always re-post my Fandex in a new thread, if any one else feels the same way about Dwarfs. They're a decent army. Solid all-around. There are just three lists you can pick from.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/10/17 22:06:47


 
   
Made in au
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





5+ would work well, and for 8 points on top of the dwarf stats would make for an excellent anvil unit. Which is something dwarves should definitely have.

I couldn't say for certain if it would end up in tournament lists. Ultimately having a big block of troops that can absorb damage but also put out Str5 hits like dwarves with great weapons will always be a solid choice, but I think with a 5+ ward save there would be a lot of reasons to take dwarves with shield as an anvil unit.

“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”

Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. 
   
Made in us
The Conquerer






Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

It is kinda surprising that dwarves really lack a solid anvil unit. And their units in general are more squishy then you would expect.

Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! 
   
Made in us
Evasive Eshin Assassin





T4 is higher than the average man, but it's nothing special in terms of the Warhammer world average.

The lack of anything faster/bigger/tougher/stronger than infantry and elite infantry hurts.

Aside from improving some units, I've tried to focus on giving them more maneuverability as a tactical option. Creating dangerous terrain and the like.

 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Saint Louis Mo

Where is the fandex at??? Have you a link?


 
   
Made in au
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





 Grey Templar wrote:
It is kinda surprising that dwarves really lack a solid anvil unit. And their units in general are more squishy then you would expect.


It is, rather. I think it might be an example of the game growing past an old codex. I remember a time when blocks of 25 dwarves were something that'd be really hard to shift from the board, outside of really powerful lists.

But these days the killing power of everything has been increased so much, and anvil units have become something far more powerful under the new steadfast rules (and newer books have much cheaper defensive options as well) that a dwarf with a shield just isn't playing the same game as everything else.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Warpsolution wrote:
T4 is higher than the average man, but it's nothing special in terms of the Warhammer world average.


T4 isn't that big of a deal, a lot of the ability to soak damage comes from other things - good armour, ward saves, and massive wound counts are all more important than the shift from T3 to T4, and at least 2 of the 3 are needed to make a unit a really good anvil.

So, for instance, dropping the price of regular board and sword dwarves would allow them to be taken in really big units for a pretty low price... it'd be an effective anvil unit but really against the design of dwarves.

So the other options become needed, either a much higher save or an improved ward save would make shield and hand weapon dwarves far tougher opponents.


The lack of anything faster/bigger/tougher/stronger than infantry and elite infantry hurts.


True, but that's a harder thing to fix. It's kind of the design core of the dwarven list.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/10/19 06:09:33


“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”

Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. 
   
Made in us
The Conquerer






Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

I think all Dwarf units should have good armor saves. I'm talking 4+ base.

So Dwarf Heavy Armor = 4+ armor.

Gromril Plate = 3+

Tower Shield = +1 to armor and 5+ parry save(Ironbreakers come with it standard, characters can purchase it instead of a regular shield)


So Ironbreakers would have 2+ armor and 5+ parry standard. Now THATS an anvil unit.

Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! 
   
Made in us
Evasive Eshin Assassin





I like what you're both suggesting.

@DarkWind: I can post it or attach it in full in another thread, if you want. I'd already had it up for a while, so I figured I wouldn't clutter up the internet.

For Ironbreakers, I'd really like to develop them into something different. I feel like 15pts/model, 2 attacks, and a 2nd Stubborn unit choice all adds something to the Dwarf list that they're either lacking or that makes it unique to other armies.
I think I'd rather keep Dwarf Warriors the same price, so improving armour and Parry is probably out. I think I'll run some tests with a 5+ Parry and see how that works.

Tower Shields seemed to make sense to me at first, but do they really fit in with the Nordic feel of Dwarfs?
For that matter, what kind of historical tactics did those armies use? I can't find much beyond "shields, axes, swords, and spears".

 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Saint Louis Mo

that would be mighty kind of ya sir.


 
   
Made in au
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





 Grey Templar wrote:
I think all Dwarf units should have good armor saves. I'm talking 4+ base.

So Dwarf Heavy Armor = 4+ armor.

Gromril Plate = 3+

Tower Shield = +1 to armor and 5+ parry save(Ironbreakers come with it standard, characters can purchase it instead of a regular shield)


So Ironbreakers would have 2+ armor and 5+ parry standard. Now THATS an anvil unit.


Upping the armour saves, and basing the strength of dwarf list around that makes them problematic, I think. Any armour that is Str 3 and lacking in great weapons and halberds would get hammered, while armies with a lot of high strength attacks would still smash their way through.

I think the ward save is the better option, as it works equally against all opponents.

“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”

Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. 
   
 
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