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Made in gb
Shas'ui with Bonding Knife





fareham, hants, uk

Ok. i'm sure i'm not the first to get annoyed at the fact you can't mount a tyrant on the mournfang or rhinox. However my Local GW is very fair when it comes to the regulars using agreed house rules for games. Such past successes include dwarfs riding cavalry, fondly known as the "Pip-Pony Cavalry".

What i have been working on is for my ogres to allow me to field what every current ogre probably hoped for with the most recent book, an all mounted army of porkies. What i came up with was a named character that not only being a beast himself, allows you access to an all mounted army.

What i hope for from you guys is some opinions on the rules. you know, is it balanced? overpowered? under/over pointed etc. I've tried to be fair with his points cost and items, i think he's quite balanced but let me know what you guys think.

Anyway here he is:

Morak Grimhorn, Tyrant of the Thunder Horn Tribe…...............505 Points
Morak is a Lord choice for Ogre Kingdoms

M WS BS S T W I A LD TYPE
Morak 6 6 4 5 5 5 4 5 10 MC
Gorrax 8 3 0 5 5 4 2 4 5 MC

Equipment
• The Rhinox Pelt (Morak)
• Grimhorn’s Retribution (Morak)
• Maws Tooth (Morak)

The Rhinox Pelt: An amalgamation of sturdy iron plate and thick Rhinox hide combined to specifically fit Morak’s ample frame.

The Rhinox Pelt conveys an armour save of 5+.

Grimhorn’s Retribution: Forged by a dwarfen weapon smith for Morak as payment for not destroying the dwarf hold of Kattik Drun when the Thunder Horn Tribe happened to stumble upon its entrance. The great blade emits a runic glow and grants the bearer great strength.

Grimhorn’s Retribution is a 2 handed weapon that grants the wielder +2 strength and magical attacks. Always Strike Last.

Maws Tooth: Created by the Azgam, the first and greatest Slaughter Master of the Thunder Horn Tribe (so tribal legend tells).The Maws Tooth is a Talisman, shaped like a giant tooth and emits a protective aura that surrounds the bearer.

The Maws Tooth is a Talisman that grants the bearer a 5+ ward save.

Special Rules
Fear, Impact Hits (D3+1), Monstrous Cavalry, Iron Skinned, Stubborn, Tyrant of the Mounted Hoards

Iron Skinned: A rider atop a Grimhorn Rhinox receives an armour save bonus of +3, rather than the usual +1 for cavalry mounts.

Tyrant of the Mounted Hoards: Morak has built his tribes legacy on marching into battle fearlessly atop any and all manner of grizzly beasts that reside in the Mountains of Mourn.

An army led Morak follows the revised army rules listed below:

Slaughter Masters/Butchers/firebellys and Bruisers may take one of the follow as a mount:
Mournfang for 60 Points
Rhinox for 80 points

Army List changes:
Mournfang Cavalry- Count as Core
Rhinox Riders- Count as Special

Rules for the Rhinox riders are the FW rules and can be found here:

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/r/Rhinox.pdf

Thanks for looking guys.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/11/02 07:26:05


All anyone wants in the world is to be accepted. Except me, i don't give a S%@t.

Armies of Mixer
WHFB-Ogres, WoC, Lizardmen, Tomb Kings, Tzeentch Daemons, OnG

40K- Tau,Guard, Nids, SM, BA, GK, IK, DW

The Hobbit/LOTR- Evil, Angmar, Mordor
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





The reason you don't have mounted Ogres is two-fold.

Ogres resist dmg through wounds and toughness. Their lords have more wounds than any other 8th edition lords. Generally by 2, which is a damn lot. They only have one unit of decent armor and that's Mcavalry and they are expensive. You now can get an essentially chaos-armor list of heroes with their usual ward saves and huge wounds who can get LoS in mournfangs.

Another issue is Ogres are fast. But they are all 6. The ones that are higher you take a risk with them out of LD bubble. Or you just send them off to die in case of sabertusks. But now you got 8 moving super combat heroes with 8 moving super combat specials. I can't see any reason to put all your points possible into mournfangs and mounted heroes with min in core.

I mean, for 45 points you get +2M, 4+ armor save, and +4 Attacks at Str 5. That's a REALLY good deal. No weapon in the game is close to that. No two weapons. A Monstrous Cavalry is really just an addition to a unit, like a weapon. It's not a monster. There's no drawbacks, except a bigger footprint and looking for LoS.

No Ogres have LD10. LD is one of their weaknesses. Which is why it's part of their signature spell. Not even Greasus has it. He should be 9 max.

I think he's way too cheap when compared to other Ogre SC's. He's vastly better than all of them.

The Ogre army book is very powerful, IMHO. This would only make them more powerful with no downside. You give a Hunter a Stonehorn, you pay a lot, make him a monster (can't join units), lose the rider (so basically pay more than a Stonehorn), in exchange for some nice special rules.

*IF you're doing a fluffy house rule, then none of this matters. If you're concerned about balance at all, it's way too cheap and he's too good. At least IMHO.

   
Made in au
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





Yeah, I think DukeRustfield summed it up nicely.

“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”

Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. 
   
Made in gb
Shas'ui with Bonding Knife





fareham, hants, uk

Thanks for your comments. i fully appreciate that he's going to be a bit of a beast, but i want to reflect that in his points cost so its balanced. as i said myself and the regulars do this to allow more variety in the battles we play.

Originally his cost was worked out based on the cost of equivalent items already on offer, so:
Base cost of tyrant + 25 for Pelt + 40 for weapon + 30 for talisman + 70 for rhinox + 25 for rules. so i tried to be fair about it.

however breaking down what that rule allows me to do, he is still underpointed.

After a think i've decided on a couple of revisions. i've edited above to show this.

In Summary

Now costs 505 rather than 405. a fair cost i think. also 2400 point army minimum needed before you can field him.
Ld 9, not 10. as you say even goldtooth isn't LD10
Total armour save is now 2+, with the Rhinox Pelt only a 5+ now. still a nice armour save but is in line with mournfang
Grimhorn's Retribution is still +2 Str and magical, but now has Always Strikes Last as well. much more balanced just because of ASL.
Mount cost changes. Mournfang is now 60 pointsinstead of 45. Rhinox is 80 points instead of 70.

Thoughts on the changes please guys. i want a fair but fun set of rules so we can enter it as official house rules and i can use it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/11/02 07:27:34


All anyone wants in the world is to be accepted. Except me, i don't give a S%@t.

Armies of Mixer
WHFB-Ogres, WoC, Lizardmen, Tomb Kings, Tzeentch Daemons, OnG

40K- Tau,Guard, Nids, SM, BA, GK, IK, DW

The Hobbit/LOTR- Evil, Angmar, Mordor
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





I thought about it again while walking for some food.

If you buy a regular dude in another army a horse, you're giving him a single Str3 attack, +1 armor, and probably +5 move. In exchange for a bigger footprint, reduced LoS, and +points. A chaos lord on a horse is just a faster chaos lord who can only hang out with cavalry. And for that luxury he pays 24pts. 24pts for 1 sucky attack.

You're basically adding a monster to your lord with the cost of a normal cavalry and with none of the disadvantages of a monster. If you really want a mount, give him a Stonehorn. No one will take it, because it's a monster. Mournfangs and Rhinox are just too good.

The only other MC mounts I think are Juggernauts for WoC and DoC. They cost 50 and have 2 attacks. Mournfangs are way better. And those armies have limited supplies of MC the new heroes can join. Because they are Rare or only other heroes have them.

I don't know what the price point is to make this viable, but it's super high. It's at least 100 I think. You don't simply add up what the value is outside the item, because it's not an item. No spell or item can negate being on a Mournfang ever. You can't target the Mournfang. It's part of his character definition.

Also, he's not a Mournfang Cavalry. He's a hero. The armor that Mournfangs get != what he gets. They are a specialized unit. No other Ogre SC has anything better than light armor. So 6+. And you got 2+ and a ward. And a bruiser (or other) could get 2+ and a 4+ ward.

So one of the concerns is giving it to other heroes. One way to circumvent it is to take the cost from their magic item allowance. You want to ride a monster? Okay, but it has to be a magic mournfang. Then it becomes a lot less of a slam dunk to take it every time. Because really, you'd always give this to your heroes as it stands. They're super good.

   
Made in gb
Shas'ui with Bonding Knife





fareham, hants, uk

So the main issue now is the cost of mounts for heros.

what about 75 points for a mournfang and 90 for a rhinox?

Also whats the opinion on the changes to the character? fairly balanced for 505 and the changes to his items/statline?
   
Made in us
Evasive Eshin Assassin





I see what you're going for, and I respect that.

I think the problem is that Mournfangs are So Good. They're the Best, in fact. It's hard to balance the awesomeness of Core Mournfang Cavalry with any kind of point value.

Maybe you could try something a little wonkier, to make the army less flexible (and by that, I mean make it hard to run nothing but Mournfangs and Saber Tusks):

- maybe the Grimhorn is a Lord-level Hunter/Tyrant hybrid? He gets some neat little benefits, some restrictions, and costs more?
Then maybe he lets you run 1 unit of Mournfangs as Core, and every other Hunter you have on a Mournfang allows 1 more.

- maybe Firebellies and Butchers can't ride Mournfangs because the beasts don't take kindly to being singed/eaten. All cavalry no-magic ogres would be high risk-reward, to say the least.

- maybe you just need to make a specific List that they'll allow, rather than making rules that let you make the list. A fair list is easier to swallow than a set of rules that could lead to serious stupid, even if the list made with those rules is fair.

 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





If you could run Mournfangs as Core you would not have regular Ogres. Mournfangs and sabertusks :O

The problem with the Lord is he allows other people to get Mournfangs and Rhinox, which I'm personally having difficulty seeing balanced. Likewise, he has 9 Str5 attacks, 2+ armor, 5+ ward, 8M. No Lord in the game can do that without being on a Monster. Kroq-Gar from Lizardman come close, 4+ armor, 5+ ward, 10 attacks, but he's a monster. A vampire lord on a zombie dragon would come close--again, a monster. Having the mount MC is a really big deal.

If you could give your Tyrant a Stonehorn for 250 or a Mournfang for 250 it would be something you have to think about--get out the book and work through scenarios. The fact a monster of that size and point value can be mentioned in the same breath gives you an idea what you have to contend with to try and balance them.

   
Made in au
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





I think you could probably make this work if you upped the cost for any Mournfangs that were taken in the list. Either that or, as Warpsolution suggested, just limit how many extra mournfangs he gives you access to.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/11/07 03:58:36


“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”

Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. 
   
Made in us
Killer Klaivex




Oceanside, CA

 sebster wrote:
Yeah, I think DukeRustfield summed it up nicely.

You know you're off the mark when Duke and I both agree.

If you want a mounted lord, I'd go with a Tyrant on a Thundertusk, OR a Tyrant riding in a chariot pulled by a rhinox. Think Iron Blaster, without the Cannon.
You're not going to get a whole tribe mounted up, because the food required would be so great that some of the ogres are bound to eat the mounts.

For Thundertusk, just use it as is, +250 points for the tyrant to ride it, and he replaced BOTH of the crew. Getting an 18" bubble for leadership is a pretty good deal for ogres.
I'd treat the chariot just like an iron blaster, only without the cannon. +100 points as a mount.

Skip the idea of mounted ogre core.

-Matt

 thedarkavenger wrote:

So. I got a game with this list in. First game in at least 3-4 months.
 
   
Made in gb
Gor with Big Horns



Sinnoh

I can see a hunter riding a Mournfang, but that is about it, and they don't join units other than hunting packs of sabretooths

A tyrant would have eaten anything that would make him look lesser than he is, so any rhinox / mournfang he would have reared growing up would be long gone, either eaten or slain.
   
Made in us
Evasive Eshin Assassin





I refuse to say "no" to an idea!

@mixer86: just to clarify, you want an all-mounted ogre army 'cause it'd look cool and no one's done it before, not because it would rock and you can not only crush your opponents' armies, but their will to play the game. Right?

With that said, all you need to do is make a list that's got some serious weaknesses and go with that.
I'm still thinking focusing heavily on Hunters or (maybe and?) no magic is a good way to go.
As for Core-cavalry, I've got a few ideas:

- what are the idea ways to set up Mournfangs? Maybe Core ones can only be fielded in certain sized units. Or can't take Ironfists. Whatever.
- Sabretusk hunting packs as core? Minimum unit size 5+, of course.
- Gnoblar...pig...cavalry? I'm out of ideas.

So, everyone, instead of saying why this'll never ever work, let's come up with something--anything--that would. It's a game. Made by people. About imaginary stuff. I think this is well within the realm of the possible.

 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Everything you could possibly dream of can be balanced with points. It's the simplest way. If a mount cost 1000, no matter the stats, it would suck. So you just go down from there until the ratio of suck:good makes it viable to either buy them or not buy them.

But it can't be you always buy it because it's overwhelmingly better than not having it. An army of Mournfangs and Rhinox is incredibly powerful.

   
Made in us
Evasive Eshin Assassin





...unless they each cost 1000pts, in which case there'd be 2 or 3.
I agree with what you're saying. I'm not sure why it was said; it doesn't seem to be anything more than repeating what you've said earlier on in this thread. You got a possible solution, or are you just going to keep saying how moving Mournfang to Core would break the army. It would, of course, but that statement has literally zero significance at this point in the conversation, since it's been stated and accepted already.

 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





If you reread it, I offered the solution. Reprice them. I don't know what the price should be as I'm not making this proposal and it takes more thought than that (and I don't particularly want rhinox riders...).

   
Made in us
Evasive Eshin Assassin





I guess that's a solution. Technically. Like the solution to bringing about world peace is "convincing everyone to get along". It's certainly the direction to take things, but honestly, as to getting there, I think you'd be one of the better candidates as a guide, interest or lack there of in the destination aside, of course.

I don't feel remotely qualified, but I'll give it a shot. Here's a way to get an all-mounted Ogre force, maybe?

- the special character is more or less a regular Tyrant, with the fluff that he is a sort of Tyrant-Hunter. Give him a Stonehorn mount and a 5+ Ward save versus shooting attacks, typical Hunter equipment, and a great weapon.
- He lets you take one unit of Mournfangs as Core, and one more for every Hunter you have in your army.
- Hunters and Bruisers can ride Mournfangs for the cost of a normal Mournfang +20.
- Slaughtermasters, Butchers, and Firebellies cannot ride stuff, as animals friggin' hate them.

There. Now each unit of Mournfangs requires you to buy a Hunter, so the army will be really character-heavy. And there's no magic. And the character doesn't do anything beyond give you Mourfangs (he's worse than a normal Tyrant, item-wise).
Is this still too crazy-good? Did I somehow shift it too far, and it's bad?

 
   
Made in gb
Shas'ui with Bonding Knife





fareham, hants, uk

Ok its been a while but i wanted to revisit this with my revised rules for Morak. Please let me know what you think.

Morak Grimhorn, Tyrant of the Thunder Horn Tribe…...............605 Points
Morak is a Lord choice for Ogre Kingdoms

M WS BS S T W I A LD
Morak 6 6 4 5 5 5 4 5 9
Grimtooth 8 3 0 5 4 3 2 4 5

Equipment
• The Rhinox Pelt (Morak)
• Grimhorn’s Retribution (Morak)
• Maws Tooth (Morak)

The Rhinox Pelt: An amalgamation of sturdy iron plate and thick Rhinox hide combined to specifically fit Morak’s ample frame.

The Rhinox Pelt conveys an armour save of 5+.

Grimhorn’s Retribution: Forged by a dwarfen weapon smith for Morak as payment for not destroying the dwarf hold of Kattik Drun when the Thunder Horn Tribe happened to stumble upon its entrance. The great blade emits a runic glow and grants the bearer great strength.

Grimhorn’s Retribution is a 2 handed weapon that grants the wielder +1 strength and magical attacks.

Maws Tooth: Created by the Azgam, the first and greatest Slaughter Master of the Thunder Horn Tribe (so tribal legend tells).The Maws Tooth is a Talisman, shaped like a giant tooth and emits a protective aura that surrounds the bearer.

The Maws Tooth is a Talisman that grants the bearer a 5+ ward save.

Special Rules
Fear, Impact Hits (D3), Monstrous Cavalry, Iron Skinned, Tyrant of the Mounted Hoards, Morak’s Riders

Iron Skinned: Morak riding Grimtooth receives an armour save bonus of +3, rather than the usual +1 for cavalry mounts.

Tyrant of the Mounted Hoards: Morak has built his tribes legacy on marching into battle fearlessly atop any and all manner of grizzly beasts that reside in the Mountains of Mourn.

While Morak is alive, any Cavalry, Monstrous Cavalry or Beasts within 18” of him may use Morak’s Leadership.

Morak’s Riders: Morak’s personal bodyguard are famed and feared throughout the known world, their impending arrival preceded by what many believe to be thunder. These elite ogres ride side by side with Morak as he thunders into battle.

Any army that contains Morak as its general may choose to upgrade one unit of Mournfang Cavalry to Morak’s Riders at the cost of 15 points per model. Members of Morak’s Riders are WS4 and count as a core choice.

An army led by Morak follows the revised army rules listed below:

Army List changes:
Mournfang Cavalry- One unit may be taken as a core choice. Otherwise they are Special.
Rhinox Riders- Count as Rare

A much fairer attempt i think. Grimtooth is a mournfang, not a rhinox, plus i've added a points increase and revised his weapon and rules.

Opinions please guys

Cheers

All anyone wants in the world is to be accepted. Except me, i don't give a S%@t.

Armies of Mixer
WHFB-Ogres, WoC, Lizardmen, Tomb Kings, Tzeentch Daemons, OnG

40K- Tau,Guard, Nids, SM, BA, GK, IK, DW

The Hobbit/LOTR- Evil, Angmar, Mordor
 
   
Made in us
Evasive Eshin Assassin





Looks pretty fair as far as I'm concerned. One thing, though: does Morak's Riders + the new army composition mean you can field two units of Core Mournfangs?

 
   
Made in gb
Shas'ui with Bonding Knife





fareham, hants, uk

No, only moraks unit count as core. Might be bad writing on my part.

All anyone wants in the world is to be accepted. Except me, i don't give a S%@t.

Armies of Mixer
WHFB-Ogres, WoC, Lizardmen, Tomb Kings, Tzeentch Daemons, OnG

40K- Tau,Guard, Nids, SM, BA, GK, IK, DW

The Hobbit/LOTR- Evil, Angmar, Mordor
 
   
Made in us
Evasive Eshin Assassin





Sounds good. Here are just some minor revisions I'd suggest, for ease of reading and such.

Lords
Morak Grimhorn, Tyrant of the Thunderhorn Tribe (630pts)
Type:
Character (Monstrous Cavalry)

Morak
M6 WS6 BS4 S5 T5 W5 I4 A5 Ld9
Grimtooth
M8 WS3 BS0 S5 T4 W3 I2 A4 Ld5

-what's the difference between a Rhinox and a Mournfang? Is it just the impact hits? I'd give him whichever would be worse, to be on the safe side. Also, Grimhorn and Grimtooth is a little confusing.
Special Rules
Fear, Impact Hits (D3), Monstrous Cavalry, Iron Skinned, Tyrant of the Mounted Hoards, Morak’s Riders

Equipment
Heavy armour, Grimhorn's Retribution, Maw's Tooth (Morak only)
- since the Pelt is just a 5+ save, I don't see any reason to make it magical. It's simpler to call it heavy armour, and it's also a little better (less ways to destroy it)

Grimhorn’s Retribution: Forged by a dwarfen Runesmith as payment for not destroying the dwarf hold of Kattik Drun when the Thunderhorn Tribe happened to stumble upon its entrance, Morak has used this titanic poleaxe to cleave through countless foes.
Magic Weapon. Requires two hands. Grants +1 Strength. The wielder may re-roll failed to Wound rolls in the first round of combat.
-not sure if I'm a fan of the fluff; Dwarfs don't make Runic weapons as bribes for bullies. But that might just be the Ogre's perspective?
Also, there's no such thing as a magic weapon with no magic abilities beyond Magical Attacks. That feels like you're trying to get something good without paying for anything more, and since this character is already bending a lot of rules, I'd avoid that. I added 25pts to his cost for the revisions?

Maw's Tooth: When the Azgam, the first and greatest Slaughter Master of the Thunderhorn Tribe, came face-to-face with the Great Maw, the ogre wrestled one of the god's teeth from its eternal gums, as proof of his pilgrimage. Azgam has passed the Tooth on to the Tyrant of the tribe, to grant them a measure of the Maw's protection.
Talisman. Grants the bearer a 5+ ward save.
-still not sure about this. I feel like +1T or W or something would fit better. Static Ward saves are uncommon in Special Characters. Maybe a conditional one?

Iron Skinned: Morak riding Grimtooth receives an armour save bonus of +3, rather than the usual +1 for cavalry mounts.

Tyrant of the Mounted Hoards: Morak has built his tribe's legacy on charging into battle atop any and all manner of grizzly beasts that reside in the Mountains of Mourn.
While Morak is alive, any Cavalry, Monstrous Cavalry or Beasts within 18” of him may use Morak’s Leadership.
-this just feels too good. I'd give him the option to ride a Stonehorn, and let him get it that way.

Morak’s Riders: Morak’s personal bodyguard are famed and feared throughout the known world, their impending arrival preceded by what many believe to be thunder. These elite ogres ride side by side with Morak as he trundles into battle.
Any army that contains Morak as its general must take one unit of Mournfang Cavalry with +1WS and +15pts/model as a Core choice. Morak must join this unit and cannot leave it.
In addition, Morak's army can take Rhinox Riders as a Rare Choice.
-so this takes the choice out of both taking the unit and taking the upgrade (which will help people accept the changes).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/02/13 14:22:04


 
   
Made in gb
Shas'ui with Bonding Knife





fareham, hants, uk

"-what's the difference between a Rhinox and a Mournfang? Is it just the impact hits? I'd give him whichever would be worse, to be on the safe side. Also, Grimhorn and Grimtooth is a little confusing. "

4 differences between mournfang and rhinox:
1) Rhinox is T5, not 4
2) Rhinox automatically have the Stubborn rule
3) have D3+1 impact hits.
4) they have swiftstride

So i have picked the lesser of the 2 as this guy and his unit being stubborn would be a bit OP.

"- since the Pelt is just a 5+ save, I don't see any reason to make it magical. It's simpler to call it heavy armour, and it's also a little better (less ways to destroy it) "

Appreciate what your saying but the fluff i'm writing for the Thunderhorn Tribe talks about the tribes 3 sacred items so i don't think it does any harm to be this way. one change i think might be an idea is to make it a 4+ armour save, and reduce the Iron skinned bonus from +3 to +2 as it is for normal Mournfang.

"Also, there's no such thing as a magic weapon with no magic abilities beyond Magical Attacks. That feels like you're trying to get something good without paying for anything more, and since this character is already bending a lot of rules, I'd avoid that. I added 25pts to his cost for the revisions?"

Afraid i disagree hear, his weapon also grants him +1 Str, same as sword of might with the adding clause of being 2 handed to prevent benefit from an ironfist to boost the armour save further to 1+. Both are magical weapons so both gain magical attacks. But because this is not in the main rule book i was simply stating the fact that is DOES have magical attacks. and the points for such a weapon were factored into his current 605 points value.


"-still not sure about this. I feel like +1T or W or something would fit better. Static Ward saves are uncommon in Special Characters. Maybe a conditional one?"

Not sure i agree with this either, i could name quite a lot of named characters with a static ward: greasus goldtooth, throgg (via regen), archaon, festus (via regen), slaan (who are a lot less points than Morak), to name a few. For the points cost of him i think a 5+ ward is fair considering ANY hero/lord can pick up a 4+ save for 45 points. Though i do kinda like the idea of conditional, Perhaps a 6+ standard that increases to 5+ any turn he successfully charges? Your thoughts on this please?

"While Morak is alive, any Cavalry, Monstrous Cavalry or Beasts within 18” of him may use Morak’s Leadership.
-this just feels too good. I'd give him the option to ride a Stonehorn, and let him get it that way."

Maybe it is a little too good,thinking about changing this to reroll Ld tests within 12" of him.

"Any army that contains Morak as its general must take one unit of Mournfang Cavalry with +1WS and +15pts/model as a Core choice. Morak must join this unit and cannot leave it.
In addition, Morak's army can take Rhinox Riders as a Rare Choice. "

Happy with this, your right it does impose a tax of sorts to allow it which i have no problem with. essentially what i've already said seeing as i struggle to see why someone wouldn't pay the upgrade cost as its the only way to get core mournfang. One thing is the forgeworld rules say Rhinox are Special, so will play rhinox to those rules.








This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/02/14 15:21:18


All anyone wants in the world is to be accepted. Except me, i don't give a S%@t.

Armies of Mixer
WHFB-Ogres, WoC, Lizardmen, Tomb Kings, Tzeentch Daemons, OnG

40K- Tau,Guard, Nids, SM, BA, GK, IK, DW

The Hobbit/LOTR- Evil, Angmar, Mordor
 
   
Made in us
Evasive Eshin Assassin





 mixer86 wrote:
"i have picked the lesser of the 2 as this guy and his unit being stubborn would be a bit OP.


- Or absurdly OP. Good call on the Mournfang. I'd still consider giving him the option for a Stonehorn. There's always the chance that your opponent isn't packing cannons...

 mixer86 wrote:
Appreciate what your saying but the fluff i'm writing for the Thunderhorn Tribe talks about the tribes 3 sacred items so i don't think it does any harm to be this way. one change i think might be an idea is to make it a 4+ armour save, and reduce the Iron skinned bonus from +3 to +2 as it is for normal Mournfang.


1. Change the fluff; maybe it's just two sacred items. Or the third belongs to the Special Character Hunter in the army.
also
2. Yes. Make his Mournfang a regular one, and the Pelt can be magical just fine.

 mixer86 wrote:
Afraid i disagree hear, his weapon also grants him +1 Str, same as sword of might with the adding clause of being 2 handed to prevent benefit from an ironfist to boost the armour save further to 1+. Both are magical weapons so both gain magical attacks. But because this is not in the main rule book i was simply stating the fact that is DOES have magical attacks. and the points for such a weapon were factored into his current 605 points value.


All weapons have to be of a specific kind. If a weapon requires two hands, it is not a hand weapon, so what is it? It's either a flail, a great weapon, a halberd, or one that doesn't appear in the book. His weapon requires two hands and grants +1 Strength. That's a halberd. It has magic attacks, but that's it.
Another way to look at it: it really just seems like you looked at him and said, "hm, what would be the best weapon for him? Something that lets him hit hard (he already does that pretty well, so just +1 or 2 is enough) and has Magical attacks, so he can kill ghosts, but nothing else, to keep him as cheap as possible".
To which I say: he's a Tyrant and a Special Character. I think he should have a big bad weapon. Like a totem-pole spear that lets him pierce ranks like a Bolt Thrower when he charges or something. The less practical and efficient you make him, the better. Core Mournfangs, man. Core. Mournfangs.

 mixer86 wrote:
Not sure i agree with this either, i could name quite a lot of named characters with a static ward: greasus goldtooth, throgg (via regen), archaon, festus (via regen), slaan (who are a lot less points than Morak), to name a few. For the points cost of him i think a 5+ ward is fair considering ANY hero/lord can pick up a 4+ save for 45 points. Though i do kinda like the idea of conditional, Perhaps a 6+ standard that increases to 5+ any turn he successfully charges? Your thoughts on this please?


Okay, so there are a number of Special Characters with a static Ward save. But let me point out that:
- Archaon, Kroak, and the like are steeped in reality-melting power.
- Regeneration is a conditional Ward save.
- I just feel like every Special Character anyone tries to make has a 5 or 4+ Ward (there are a few 3+ or even 2+'s, but let's not look at those). Again, it feels like the standard "this'll make him GOOD" sort of justification. Granted, you're correct; a 5+ isn't ideal. It's not a big concern, but I think there's room to give him more colour. The Maw's Tooth...that just makes me think it gives him +1T and MR2, or Regeneration (5+) or something. It's one of the Maw's friggin' Teeth. Let's get some culinary themes going on in here!

 mixer86 wrote:
Maybe it is a little too good,thinking about changing this to reroll Ld tests within 12" of him.


So you're thinking of dropping his Inspiring Presence by 6", down to the normal 12", and replacing it with a second Hold your Ground option? No. That is one-jillion times better than an extended Inspiring Presence. Just drop this rule all together. He's a Ld9 monster who rides into battle on another monster. That's a good enough leader with the standard rules.

 mixer86 wrote:
Happy with this, your right it does impose a tax of sorts to allow it which i have no problem with. essentially what i've already said seeing as i struggle to see why someone wouldn't pay the upgrade cost as its the only way to get core mournfang. One thing is the forgeworld rules say Rhinox are Special, so will play rhinox to those rules.


Not sure what you're saying. Are you worried that the upgrade is too good a deal? Seems like a poor trade-off to me.
But yeah, if the Rhinox are Special, make 'em Special. I don't think anyone's going to argue overmuch about that. Not when there's Core Mournfangs.









 
   
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While Morak is alive, any Cavalry, Monstrous Cavalry or Beasts within 18” of him may use Morak’s Leadership.

Why would cavalry, which ogres don't use and are probably scared of ogres, give a damn about him?

And you better make it friendly or your enemies can RAW use his LD.

Oh, and whether it's 1 unit are core and rest are special or 32489234 units are core and rest special, in practice you're making them all Core. Because you can easily satisfy your core requirements with your larger(est) MF group. Then you can have any remainder smaller units as special. I.e., have an entire army of them. It just makes it cheesy accounting work but the end result is the same: as many Mournfangs as you want.

House rules and such... But letting the best or close to the best unit in the entire game compose your whole army is iffy.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/02/16 03:56:27


   
Made in us
Evasive Eshin Assassin





I was a little worried about that as well. But there's no way to get such mounts for your other characters, so if you really wanted an all-Mournfang list, you'd have to either leave your BSB and Wizards behind, all alone, or (more likely) run into combat with one character and hope for the best.

Also, how much would Mournfangs benefit from being fielded in large groups? I only ever see 3-4, really. Putting them all together into one mega-unit seems to be a worse option, based on the fact I've never seen it.
An army that's one unit of Bulls and one unit of Mournfangs...that'd be somethin'.

 
   
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You see 3-4 cuz they are expensive and people are using SM as generals and need to put them in troops. This guy is now the general. He can join them and get LOS and all the other benefits.

Everyone knows how great they are. It's not a question of what makes it good, it's what makes it not great? They're all LD9 insanely armored, super fast, insane attacks MC.

I'd make the big core unit with the general have maybe a rune maw standard and the majority of your points and your specials be smaller. So you've got insane point protection and you generally can't be mega spelled except by templates. But I'd wager they still have a smaller footprint than a corresponding guttstar that are used as point protection.

There's a fine line in this stuff. You can take Throgg and have an army of Trolls. But Trolls, as good as they are, still have gigantic weaknesses. Mournfang don't have a lot of weaknesses, certainly not like trolls, and one they might have (LD) is mitigated by their now-fast general. Skaven can take Rat Ogres as core, but those have gigantic weaknesses too.

   
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 mixer86 wrote:
"

4) they have swiftstride



Mournfang have Swiftstride too. Because all Cavalry do.

Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! 
   
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Well Duke, what about the fact that they don't have a BSB or any casters at all?

I'm still favoring the idea that this Special Character should be a Hunter-Tyrant hybrid, to increase his cost and give him a few little--mostly flavorful--benefits.

 
   
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fareham, hants, uk

Ok let me address some of your points.

1) This is not about bending Ogres to my whim so i never lose. As Warp hinted to this is meant to be about creating an all mounted army for fluff reasons. i have no intention of using this guy in conjunction with butchers, just mounted fun. so i would be forgoing an entire phase of every turn.

2) i have made some changes based on our discussions and will post rule set below.

3) Duke, the Rune Maw banner is too expensive to be taken by Mournfang, otherwise that would be filthy.

4) Mournfang, as good as they are, have a number of weaknesses IMHO. low initiative, Lore of Shadow, Lore of metal, artillery in general due to big foot print. even enough str 3 shooting will bring them down. plus the loss of a mournfang has a substanial impact on a units combat ability due to small numbers and volume of attacks each mournfang puts out. a unit of 4, losing 1 mournfang before combat is 25% of the units attacks and can make the difference between winning and losing as it is a minimum of 9 attacks (inc impact hits and stomp) lost.

5) i have dropped the reroll anything rule. to help balance it out.

Please see below for the amended rule set for him:

Morak Grimhorn, Tyrant of the Thunder Horn Tribe…...............625 Points
Morak is a Lord choice for Ogre Kingdoms

M WS BS S T W I A LD
Morak 6 6 4 5 5 5 4 5 9
Fangor 8 3 0 5 4 3 2 4 5

Unit Type: Special Character (Monstrous Cavalry)

Equipment
• The Rhinox Pelt (Morak)
• Grimhorn’s Retribution (Morak)
• Maws Tooth (Morak)

The Rhinox Pelt: An amalgamation of sturdy iron plate and thick Rhinox hide combined to specifically fit Morak’s ample frame.

Magic Armour: The Rhinox Pelt conveys a 4+ armour save.

Grimhorn’s Retribution: Crafted by Grimhorn himself from Rhinox Horn, Stonehorn Bone and bound together by Mournfang hide and magically blessed by the tribe’s butchers. Grimhorn’s weapon of choice when charging into battle emits a terrible screeching sound as air passes through the hollowed sections of bone and resonates, creating a sound that mimics the sound of the Great Maw itself.

Magic Weapon: Grimhorn’s Retribution is a Lance that grants Morak the Terror Special Rule on a turn Morak successfully charges and the Armour Piercing Special Rule.

Maws Tooth: Created by the Azgam, the first and greatest Slaughter Master of the Thunder Horn Tribe (so tribal legend tells).The Maws Tooth is a Talisman, taken from the Great Maw itself and emits a protective aura that surrounds the bearer.

Talisman: The Maws Tooth grants the bearer +1 Toughness and Regeneration (5+). At the start of each turn, roll a D6 for Morak. On a roll of 3+, Morak regains a lost wound but cannot exceed his starting wounds. On a roll of 1-2, Morak suffers a Str 3 poisoned hit.

Special Rules
Fear, Impact Hits (D3), Monstrous Cavalry, Iron Skinned, Morak’s Riders

Iron Skinned: Morak riding Grimtooth receives a bonus of +2 to his armour save, rather than the usual +1 for cavalry mounts.

Morak’s Riders: Morak’s personal bodyguard are famed and feared throughout the known world, their impending arrival preceded by what many believe to be thunder. These elite ogres ride side by side with Morak as he thunders into battle.

Any army that contains Morak as its general must choose to upgrade one unit of Mournfang Cavalry to Morak’s Riders at the cost of 15 points per model. Members of Morak’s Riders are WS4 and count as a core choice. The unit may take Full Command for 30 points and a magical standard worth up to 50 points. Morak must join this unit and can never choose to leave the unit.


Changes to the weapon and talisman.

Thoughts please guys.

All anyone wants in the world is to be accepted. Except me, i don't give a S%@t.

Armies of Mixer
WHFB-Ogres, WoC, Lizardmen, Tomb Kings, Tzeentch Daemons, OnG

40K- Tau,Guard, Nids, SM, BA, GK, IK, DW

The Hobbit/LOTR- Evil, Angmar, Mordor
 
   
Made in us
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Dude, you made him better? He's getting a new wound every turn? 2/3rds of the time.

Like, I don't know what to day. When I was younger, and I'm sure you are younger than me, we made 30th lvl characters in D&D and fought Greater Demons and even went to the 8th plane of hell. At every fight we had to sit there for 15 minutes to figure out how we would obliterate these foolish daemon lords. But you know, that wasn't balanced. Or even the way the game was meant to be played.

If you just HAD a tyrant on a mournfag with a normal allowance, you'd be done. He's more expensive than the Ender of Days.

   
Made in gb
Shas'ui with Bonding Knife





fareham, hants, uk

Ok, i was trying to mix in the suggestions others had made.

If i switch the Maws Tooth back to a standard 5+ ward would that be better?

Also what are the thoughts regarding the weapon being a lance now?

i know he's good but he isn't far off archaon points cost without half the nasty rules he has, which is fine when you factor in a unit of core mournfangs.

Bear in mind as good as they are, a 3k list i've written for this character only has 18 models in it, 3k of opponent will certainly be able to deal with this, especially considering i will have no magic to buff the army.

All anyone wants in the world is to be accepted. Except me, i don't give a S%@t.

Armies of Mixer
WHFB-Ogres, WoC, Lizardmen, Tomb Kings, Tzeentch Daemons, OnG

40K- Tau,Guard, Nids, SM, BA, GK, IK, DW

The Hobbit/LOTR- Evil, Angmar, Mordor
 
   
 
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