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I wanted to kick around ideas for Lizardmen in 8th edition. You can be specific or not.

-Magic items gone. We know this.
-Steggadon buffs. Maybe simply cheaper. Or the attacks need to go higher.

One thing that I always thought was cool about Lizardmen is they are stone tech. It's not mentioned a lot, but you'll see at the start of the book the palaquin actually has like jet exhausts. And some of the banners are very stone tech feel. In one of the books (Skaven?) they mentioned the dimension-spanning technology of the lizardmen. So I'd like to see a war machine. Have the existing steggadon-mounted alter be buffed and maybe another like Empire buff mobiles.

Lobotomized humans as super-fodder?

A Kroxigor hero and/or lord. I think there needs to be more combat options besides Slann.

I have mixed feelings about Slann. I definitely don't think you should see it EVERY army above 1k points. And I also don't think they should always be belly-deep in Guard. If it was as simple as 18" inspiring presence if alone and 12" in a group or maybe less movement speed, there would be some (slight) reasons to have your slann solo. They are pretty good. Need to stay the premier casters IF they spend the points.

The Liz SCs are some of the worst in the whole game. Kroak will exist and be expensive. But maybe he has multi spells that all cast as bound and they can't be stolen?

Stegadons should be cheaper, with cleaner rules (like the Big Spider), and maybe the Skinks can shoot out of the combat.

The Engine of the Gods was stupid good in 7th, but I rarely see it now, since it's so easy to disable. A prehistoric buff-mobile would be perfect, I say.

I don't think Lizardmen really need much more in the way of fodder. Units of 10 Skink Skirmishers can re-direct and stall the enemy and do plenty of other stuff as well.
Really, I'd like to see regular Skinks go down a bit in price; yeah, they got Poison, but they're T2. Maybe give them shields and/or javelins as upgrades, so you could field them cheaper.

- A Kroxigor hero would be cool; I don't think Lizardmen as they currently exist would have a lord-level Big Dumb Guy.
I would like to see Old Bloods go up to Ld9. I mean, the one reason people might take a combat-Lord over a wizard is for that extra Ld. I think that nothing should beat Slann for Ld, but their Saurus counterparts could at least vie for a position in your force.

Slann are too cheap for what they do. They need to be The Best casters in the game, no doubt. But Slann are good even without extra stuff. For 275pts, you get a lvl4 Wizard with a 4+ Ward, good T and W, and an additional power (like +1 power die/casting). Nothing else in the game is remotely that efficient. And then the efficiency just keeps rocketing upwards with more Disciplines, him being the BSB, etc.
I'd like to see that Ward save disappear. After some of the Disciplines are made not-stupidly-awesome (Cogitation) and the sickest of items are removed (Cupped Hands), I think he'd be fair.

- the non-Slann Special Characters are all fun and decently built. I'd say they can all just drop in cost substantially. Kroak and Mazdamundi need some help.

In general, I'd say:

- Saurus should cause Fear. They're big, strong, scary lizard-people. Warriors of Chaos cause Fear, and they're pretty similar, except that the Warriors aren't effing dinosaurs.

- Salamanders need a clean-up in terms of rules, and should, let's face it, cost more. Razordons are probably okay. Salamanders are just hyper-efficient.

- Cold Ones and Terradons could probably use a point-drop.

Other than that, I think the army is pretty solid. The main problems as I see them are the crappiness of Stegadons and the tendancy for every list ever to be some derivation of: Super Slann, Saurus/Guard, Chameleon Skinks, Salamanders.
Boring.

Warriors of Chaos do not cause fear unless you buy a banner for them.

A-buh? Really?

...then why do Chaos Knights cause Fear? They're the same models, except mounted on extra-mean horses. I doubt the horses are the ones with Fear.

Well, at any rate, Saurus should cause Fear. They're dinosaur people.

And be WS4 ...they are WS3 atm right?

 Uzi Toting Monkeys wrote:
And be WS4 ...they are WS3 atm right?

Yes. Thought to be fair, it does kinda make sense; they are supposed to be too ferocious and animalistic to be disciplined enough to warrant a WS3.

Ogres are WS3, aren't they? They follow the same sort of logic.

I do agree though that saurus should cause fear. I mean, they are friggen raptors with big swords!
They should also have a rule that actually makes spears a viable option.

If Saurus were WS4, they would need to increase in cost to represent that.
Saurus warriors are very good; a real solid unit. They're WS and I are sub-par and terrible respectively, but that's never been a huge deal for them.
They don't need to get better. They just need to cause Fear to make sense.

Also, spears are, in general, a poor choice. And Saurus are one of the only units that can take them and see some benefit.
Saurus don't need a special rule; spears need to get better.

Really, I think Lizardmen need more toning down than anything. Their awesome units are too awesome. They're poor units aren't terrible, but people never take them because the other units are just so awesome.
Keep Slann and Salamanders in check, and then polish up Stegadons and the like. I think you'd end up with a flexible, fun army, with lots of good potential builds, rather than-

list 1A: X units and a Slann with Lore of Life
list 1B: X units and a Slann with Lore of Light

Yeah, LM aren't actually that bad to warrant a complete work over. Maybe a couple of rules here and there for consistency's, and maybe a boost to their special characters, but other than that they are fine.

Now, what they DO need are more plastic kits. Krox and terradons should be plastic, not finecast.

GW exists to sell models and Liz have very few.

Also, 1 pts of LD isn't enough to make people want to take combat heroes. It almost feels like people do it to be different or cuz they don't like magic. But it's like a slaughtermaster vs. a tyrant except times a zillion. Cuz as said even a basic slann is very tough and can be brb and can fart missiles.

I can see Slann being very low LD. Like 7. They are in a coma half the time for crap's sake. The rules around their bodyguards are totally legit, but most units aren't bodyguards. LD is yelling at your troops and issuing commands. Prolly 90% of the army wouldn't even understand the Slann if he DID speak. It would be some cryptic gurgle that takes people 5 years to figure out. Just give him Stubborn and ITP and whatever else to represent him personally being pretty tough.

I think LM need two things:

Monstrous cavalry like everyone else, and warmachines NOT mounted on Stegadons.

A couple other things would be nice:

Kroxigors need to simply be cheaper. A Saurus with one more attack, stomp and 2 more wounds is not worth 5 times the cost. And it manages to be be even slower in combat.

I would love for skinks to be able to have short bows again. I think the biggest problem with the army is a lack of an ability to engage anyone at range.

The reason Salamanders seem so good is because most of the rest of the army choices aren't great. We have two really powerful things (Slann and Sallies) and the rest of our units are average (Saurus) or below average (most of the rest).

A krox also has Fear and a great weapon.
But yeah, it is kinda pointless to have units of them. They are much more useful in Skink units, atm.

@Duke: that's a great way to look at a Slann, actually. I assume that a Slann's high Ld was supposed to equal his dizzying intellect and tactical prowess, but bringing back some of the older ideas about Slann zoning out mid-battle via lower Ld would help the army become a lot more balanced.
For the record, though, I I think exchanging 3-4 wizard levels with a lower cost, more durability, and higher Ld is a legitimate trade. People just like their magic.

@Mattlov: you and Duke have got me thinking about ancient devices left on this world by the Old Ones; big Death Beam-esque things. Expensive for war machines, but tough (5 Skink crew members with Ward saves?) and very versatile. Maybe like a smaller version of the Cauldron of Blood that's also a cannon.
But to be fair, I think Saurus being "average" 12pt troops is just fine. I think a game where every unit is average would be ideal.
And Salamanders are good because of the lack of options, but they're also just really really good.

Some point drops and some cleaner rules is all that's needed. They've already got a ton of cool units. I mean, they've got dinosaurs, dinosaur people, dinosaur people riding dinosaurs...we just need reasons to take more than three units.

1) Temple guard be stubborn and immune to psych all the time, with or without slann. That would make them useful outside of just having a slaan in the mix.

2) Priests have more lore options. One of the reasons that everyone goes Slaan is that being limited to only a level 1/2 of heavens is dull.

3) Better range for "warmachines". March and shoot salamanders is honestly too good. I'd rather have them function more like traditional warmachines by giving them more range and less mobility. Razordons need a lot more range, and need to hit more/harder to be useful.

4) Kroxigor: It's like a more expensive Irongut, that doesn't get full command, a magic banner or impact hits; and it's a special. I'd give Krox units full command options, and make them cheaper. I'd keep them the same cost in cohort units.

5) Cohort units: just clean up the rules.

6) Jungle Swarms. Drop cost to 30 points. That's about what they are worth. I'll bet most people have never seen these on the table.

7)... Baby's awake, more will come later.

-Matt

Ok my opinions. I don't play much of lizardmen and my frequent lizardmen opponent is kind of a noob with an army of less than 2k points but here's what i think.

Lizardmen should have some of the best magic in the game. Represent this in some way. I know slann are really good but to be fair from battles i've heard slann should make other magic users look like a fumbling child in comparison. Make magic go off better, easier and more frequently. Slann often shift continents, make mountains out of nothing, foresee the future and force meteors to obliterate armies. I may be exaggerating this but i think they've saved the lizardmen race by themselves on multiple occasions. Slann should be powerful though still kill-able even if death doesn't stop them from animating their dead body somehow with sheer force of will and magic (such a ridiculous special character).

Next give options to take monsters or great beasts like the giant flying lizard god creature everybody's been dying to have already. It's not like since not long before the skaven army book that monsters kept getting bigger and badder with every army book released.

Another idea is for a complete hit and run poisoned army with skinks and such being very viable. Possibly allow certain scouting abilities with skinks and other fast hit and run infantry, war beasts, cavalry possibly like fast cavalry.

The lizardmen are basically dinosaurs so read up on all sorts of dinosaurs to give yourself some idea of what you can do. I think most of the big ideas are covered already (small aquatic creatures, fast raptors, t-rex sized units, stegasaurus, etc). I do think the anklyosaurus could give a good idea for a monster though (they whipped their tail around like a club). Maybe they can also have those acid-spitting dinosaurs from jurassic park or another similar poisoned attacks dinosaur unit. Maybe use the acid spitters as war beasts and give them some effects for combat like making them enemy at -1 to hit or having a special acid attack that has that added effect as well as possible wounds suffered when hit.

The other thing lizardmen have going for them is that since it's basically the new world they basically are aztecs/mayans/incans or whatever. This would explain their affinity for knowledge of the cosmos. I don't think it'd be unfair to have a slann get the power to have loremaster for lore of the heavens. I also think a war machine buffer similar to the empire double kit that came out for their magic machines would be do-able. Possibly have a sacrificial altar with a slann using some gold jewelry and ornaments. I also think there should be an option for the magic war machine or a buy-able power etc. for slann called 'planetary alignment' or 'harmonic convergence' (Is that already a power? I'm really out of the loop.). Possibly have some portents of the future, a meteor hitting the earth (makes sense with dinosaurs and the whole 2012 apocalypse thing) or a beam of light zap enemies from the heavens and move in a line across the table. This could be bound in a war altar or similar.

Also as for special rules i'm unsure what to think about the fear causing abilities and such. Fear is such an odd thing. I tried suggesting fear on the doom flayer and 'warp solution' was against it. I mean it's a bunch of sharp spinning blades that can grind people's bodyparts in an instant and break through shield walls in the lore (though it sucks in the game). To me that unit should cause fear but some people are against that. I don't mind the idea of saurus cavalry causing fear (they probably do already but i can't check other army book for reference). I don't know about fear causing units but i suppose it could make sense. That said maybe you could make skinks more cowardly somehow. I mean lizardmen may have the worst initiative in the game but cold-blooded is one of the most annoying rules to face. I can understand WS being low as the point was made with ogres (they're just savages mostly so anything higher than a 4 on their elites would be surprising). So yeah if lizardmen are done fear might be a possibility but for some reason i think i'd like to see more poisoned units. If nothing else maybe it could make up for the poor WS of the army.

So those are my ideas for lizardmen. They are by no means complete and i don't know as much as i could about lizardmen but judging on where their inspiration comes from and different options to take i think these are a bunch of good ideas.

Also i find it funny how the 2012 apocalypse BS happened less than a few days ago. Talk about something pretty unrelated bringing it up. Maybe the lizardmen book can rib on that whole 2012 apocalypse thing. Maybe they can do it in the warhammer history time-line with great battles.

I honestly don't understand why but the few things i've seen about 8th edition army books and a bit before is that magic is stronger, wargear is mostly thrown out but what is there is fairly worth taking and monsters, monstrous cavalry, big buff machines and large masses of infantry are the focus. The probably won't even focus on stuff like saurus, skinks, saurus cavalry or elite units. In fact it's entirely likely kroxigors will get a cousin unit which plays similarly to how they play. It's probably unlikely to see new core units and also not likely to see some elite units unless they're monstrous infantry, cavalry or monsters.

@flamingkillamajig:

1. Slann Mage Priests are already The Best characters in the game. There is absolutely nothing more efficient than a Slann, period.
The Warhammer mythos states that when the Old Ones were making the world, the oldest of the Slann had pseudo-omnipotence.
But all those Slann are dead now. True to the High Fantasy standard Tolkien set for us all, everything rocked yesterday, and today is but a pale comparison, and tomorrow will be even worse.

So, to Slann getting better: I say no, from a literary perspective. And from a mechanical perspective, I say no oh heavens above why would such a thing ever happen ever?

2. Lizardmen have plenty of poison as-is. Skink skirmishers (20 poisoned shots for 70pts), Chameleon Skinks (awesome, no matter how you look at it), and regular Skink units. The last one might benefit from a point-drop, but still, they're doing okay.
I'd like to see the Special Chameleon Character become viable, though. Maybe by giving his unit a boost, like Gatilla and Snagla.

3. Stegadons are basically a combination of Anklyosaurus, Triceratops, and Stegosaurus.
Salamanders and Razordons cover the Dilophosaurus (spitting) area pretty well.

4. The Lore of Heavens covers a lot of that stuff itself. And there's a Special Character who does the stuff the Lore doesn't.
As said earlier though, a more refined Engine of the Gods and some more options for such devices would be fitting and welcome. You are making me think about taking the Special Character's abilities and putting them into a war machine-type unit, though...

5. Fear might seem odd, but let me put it this way: a guy with a knife could hurt you or kill you, and that's scary. But that's every guy ever in Warhammer. It needs to be something...more.
The Doomflayer causing Fear would make sense, because it's basically a small Doomwheel. Fear just wouldn't help the Doomflayer suck any less. But anyway, Ogres cause Fear 'cause they're big. Zombies cause fear because they're horrific. Saurus are somewhere in-between, like Chaos Knights.

6. Skinks are not especially brave on their own as it is. Cold-Blooded is the about the same as having +1Ld, mathematically (slightly better, but very slightly).

7. 8th edition books are more formulaic because that's easier to balance. Having 100 magic items that everyone can choose from, and those items changing all at once with a new edition of the game, is a jillion times better than 30 items per book, with stupid, useless, and broken items cropping up with every new release. The same thing goes for trying to condense the types of units out there. If everyone's got a little of everything, to the same extent, more or less, than everyone will have a chance at fielding good armies, no matter what the current "best builds" are.
No one should want more Core Lizardmen units; what they have is solid. Their Special really just need some cost reductions.
However, I do think you're right about Monstrous Cavalry. Now, what would Kroxigors ride into battle. They're big crocodile-people, so giant monitor lizards or alligators might be redundant, or it might be Awesome.

8. Lastly, I can't believe I forgot about this: you are absolutely, 100% correct. Lizardmen need a Couatl. A big, super-poisonous flying snake, with a Ward save and wizard levels and everything.
I have been looking for a decented wing'ed snake model for a long while, to use as a Slann.
This needs to happen.

Slann are more than okay. They need a nerf so they aren't ALWAYS taken. And we've proposed some. Fluff is just kinda fluff at some point. If a caster could really move continents, even if it took a lot of grubs, nothing would be of any value other than wizards. "Oops, I miscast and blew-up Altdorf."

Kroxigor can't be that much better cuz it will encroach on Ogre turf.

DukeRustfield wrote:


Kroxigor can't be that much better cuz it will encroach on Ogre turf.

What? Becuase it might become somewhat similar to another unit in another army it has to remain terrible? What kind of a justification is that?

Re-read what I wrote. And don't reword it this time.

The primary basis of Ogres is cheap and effective MI.

If another army has that, and say, Slann, poison skirmishers and mobile flame machines. Then they are equal to the best Ogres can provide and vastly better in other ways. That is called, "imbalance." There would be little reason from a competitive standpoint to ever take Ogres because you have equivalent Kroxigor backed by hugely better magic and other units.

DukeRustfield wrote:
Re-read what I wrote. And don't reword it this time.

The primary basis of Ogres is cheap and effective MI.

If another army has that, and say, Slann, poison skirmishers and mobile flame machines. Then they are equal to the best Ogres can provide and vastly better in other ways. That is called, "imbalance." There would be little reason from a competitive standpoint to ever take Ogres because you have equivalent Kroxigor backed by hugely better magic and other units.

The primary basis of ogres is cheap and effective monstrous core.
Krox shouldn't be cheap, but they should be effective. Having them over-priced iron guts without impact hits is stupid.

-Matt

DukeRustfield wrote:
Re-read what I wrote. And don't reword it this time.

The primary basis of Ogres is cheap and effective MI.

If another army has that, and say, Slann, poison skirmishers and mobile flame machines. Then they are equal to the best Ogres can provide and vastly better in other ways. That is called, "imbalance." There would be little reason from a competitive standpoint to ever take Ogres because you have equivalent Kroxigor backed by hugely better magic and other units.

I don't know about that totally. I mean ogres did get some new monsters and stuff but there is one glaring thing they got recently that is every bit horrifying as a prospect to enemy players....the ironblaster.

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat670015a&prodId=prod1330011a

Yeah strength 10 grapheshot. That'd basically pulp a unit of cavalry like nothing. It's also like a normal cannon and can move and fire.

Ogres are one of those armies that is very focused on their core i think but with stuff like the ironblaster and some monsters there is a bit of new stuff they have that others don't. What we really need to see is the bretonnians and wood elves getting new stuff. Ogres got some new stuff. I think they're ok for now and we shouldn't be terribly worried about a somewhat strong monstrous infantry unit in another army.

Ogres also still have something other armies don't and that is they can take their monstrous infantry as core. That means lizardmen can only have kroxigor as 50% of their army's cost while ogres can have monstrous infantry at the very least on everything if they wanted. If nothing else gnoblars are basically just there to die. They're basically the skavenslaves of ogres except to my knowledge ogres can't shoot into them and they don't cause panic in anything when they break.

DukeRustfield wrote:
Re-read what I wrote. And don't reword it this time.

The primary basis of Ogres is cheap and effective MI.

If another army has that, and say, Slann, poison skirmishers and mobile flame machines. Then they are equal to the best Ogres can provide and vastly better in other ways. That is called, "imbalance." There would be little reason from a competitive standpoint to ever take Ogres because you have equivalent Kroxigor backed by hugely better magic and other units.

How did I rewrite a direct quote?


Right now a Kroxigor fills the same combat role as an Irongut Ogre. Heavy, Monstrous infantry line breaker.

An Irongut causes Impact hits, can have a full command, better leadership, can take a magic standard, and is Core. For 12 points less per model. Even at the same point cost, the Ogre is still a better unit. That tell me that Kroxigor at at worst over-costed, and at least vastly weaker than their competition. That is imbalance, and that is what is already printed. Krox get you too little from them for their points.

I believe he means your interpretation below the quote.

We're all in agreement, here. Kroxigor need to get better, but there is a limit to how much better they should be able to get. I feel like a point drop and maybe +1S would suit them. It always struck me as odd that Rat Ogres are S5, but that these giant crocodile-soldiers were S4. Then again, Rat Ogres are priced pretty damn high for what they do as well.

They have to be. Which is what all these posts are about. You can't have Rat Ogres be competitive with Bulls, which are the gold standard for MI. If they were, there would never be a reason to play Ogres competitively because you could have Ogres and Warp Cannons and Slaves and Dread 13 and Bell.

Kroxigor have 6 str for pretty much any application. They aren't doing many attribute tests.

Duke, calm your jets. Once more, the core of my point is that some units are not as good as they should be, but that doesn't mean that I'm saying they need to be X much better.

Kroxigors and Rat Ogres basically never see play, because they cost too much/do too little.

Just, for once, read what I've got right up there, and don't assume I'm saying anything more than that.
I'm not saying Rat Ogres need to cost the same as Bulls. I'm not even saying that they need to cost the same as Bulls with +1S, Frenzy, -3Ld, no armour/equipment/command, and the Packmasters rules. I am saying exactly this: that Rat Ogres are too expensive for what they do. Period. The end. That's it.

I agree with you: Ogres should be a better unit; the fact that they're Core is a strong point in their favor already, but even beyond that, to some extent.

I still think that Kroxigor ought to be S5 base. S7 might come in handy or it might be overkill, but Krox being the same strength as Saurus is silly.

I still don't get why there's such a huge problem. Ogres have an army of monstrous infantry or better. At best any other army can have up to 50% with their monstrous infantry provided they are even effective and they don't have impact hits often or anything. Besides ogres still have the ironblaster and a couple monsters. Not sure how effective their monstrous cavalry is but i think for an ogre on a monstrous mount it's probably cheap (considering they only use the model with the highest wounds amount). Ogres seem like a pretty solid army to me.

Anyway part of the other reason why people don't get monstrous infantry in their armies isn't just cost or effectiveness but probably the amount of money it costs. If you buy rat ogres (bunch of ugly models when you get used to the IoB ones) with some giant rats it costs you 50 dollars for 2. A unit that's not terribly effective and i'd have to drop a couple hundred dollars on them just to have 8 of them. This is part of why the island of blood set is so good even if you still get just 2 rat ogres as you also get so much else for 50 dollars if it's just the skaven half. It's a really good buy. New sets are improving this but it's still expensive in comparison to buying ogres.

I also haven't seen a complaint launched against minotaurs for some reason. I faced a unit of 18 once when i had a lot less good stuff like warp lightning cannons and such to tackle that problem (i think it was also before the hellpit kit was released). I killed most of them but they did a lot of damage. Yeah massed minotaurs are sick. I suppose you don't complain about them because the beastmen army book supposedly sucks and is over-costed. I was actually interested in doing that army and VC but i may have to go with VC until beastmen get an army book people say is decent. Hard to want to play so many armies sometimes.

@flamingkillamajig: Duke's point is that the foundation of any Ogre army is, well, Ogres. And they sacrifice a lot in the way of versatility to be so.
You are right; an Ogre Kingdoms army isn't just Bulls and Bruisers and Tyrants oh my, it's got plenty of other stuff (and yes, Mournfang cavalry is absurdly awesome). But with Monstrous Infantry being their only option for a viable fighting Core, having other armies with equally efficient Ogres would take a lot of the point away from their army.

Granted, the Core vs. Special issue, as I've said, seems to largely make up for that difference. Beyond that, I'd say their equipment options and maybe a few points would be enough to keep OK Ogres ahead.

I'd like to see...maybe something like 50pt S5 Kroxigors? I don't think we should overlook Aquatic, Cold-Blooded, and their 4+ Scaly Skin, after all.
S7 would also make them good at cracking armour, with the downside that they'd be even more wasted on less elite troops. It would let them get better and cheaper, but not too much cheaper, and the way they got better would require more finesse.

As for Minotaurs, those guys are also very expensive (the same cost as Krox, I believe). And they don't have nearly as good a save to protect that investment.
My real problem with Minotaurs is their Bloodgreed; it's a sorta'-handicap, and then a bonus that stacks with itself. I feel like you're paying a premium for the potential of that ability, where they usually get it once or twice before getting blasted, shot, and spell'd off the field.

On a semi-related note, I'd use 40pt Rat Ogres from time to time. The cost of Packmasters would still keep the R'Ogres from encroaching into Bull territory, or, if you ran them with too few Packmasters, their Ld5 Frenzy/Stupidity combo would keep them equally (if not more) distant.

@warpsolution:

Do you really think kroxigor would need a higher strength with the great weapons though? All it'd really do is help vs monsters for the most part and armor and you can do that with other things. I mean you can give them armor piercing and not have to adjust their points so high or give them some sort of attack. At strength 6 killing blow is still helpful but mostly pointless except vs characters or more likely cavalry. I could see it not due to skill so much as sheer power of the weapon. Another ides is to give them devastating charge or something (supposedly +1 attack on the charge).

I think kroxigor should be given more options of some kind. Maybe full command, magic standards, gear for the unit champion (if there is one) or something. Possibly even a great weapon that gives the rule armor piercing or something. I dunno maybe that's asking too much. I think armor piercing attacks would pretty much do what you want though without making them cost too much. More likely we could keep the full command out of this entirely and just give them armor piercing attacks or devastating charge and call it a day. That said devastating charge makes more sense on monstrous cavalry but i'd like to see more unit with it for some reason. It's not like ferocious rampaging monstrous infantry are much less scary a prospect. Then again that makes me wonder if hatred is a prospect since it's the first combat phase in a fight. That'd probably make them far too good though.

I'm not necessarily looking for something to make them better. They're MI with great weapons, Aquatic, Cold Blooded, and a 4+ scaly skin. That's pretty good as it is. They just cost too much.

That said, Kroxigor were bred to be big and strong. Saurus are S4. Kroxigor are S4. It's just not doing it for me.

Mechanically, I think that S5(7) Krox would be a little better than they are now, but that the upgrade would be more of a way to justify a smaller point-drop than otherwise, without making them better in a more general way.
Does that make sense to you?

AP weapons might make sense, or Devastating Charge. Killing Blow and Hatred make next to no sense. But in any case, adding in an extra rule is a lot more complicated than increasing their Strength by one point. Simplicity, man. Simplicity. Just drop their points by something in the 5-10 range, and I think they'd be good.

They're big guys with giant executioner axes. Killing blow could make sense but then i suppose it's not some magically guided BS or superior skill but ferocity that might case killing blow. I dunno.

Hatred may just make them hit more accurately during the first turn. I mean censer bearers have it for whatever reason. Of course hatred would make them too good probably even if it's just for one round of combat. I mean a +4 scaly skin, cold-blooded and a great weapon with hatred would probably be overkill.

I don't mind +1 strength too much i just don't see the point sometimes. At strength 6 warriors of chaos are wounded on 2's with no armor saves allowed in most cases. Unless we're talking heroes or monsters and a couple war machines you're wounding pretty much everything on 2's. It could still have a use but if you're going straight for unit killing with the kroxigor it can pretty much kill most stuff at that point long as they can survive long enough to hit back.

I mean i guess it makes sense to have +1 strength but then i almost want rat ogres to be a little better. I know it'd be dumb but i'm almost imagining a rat ogre with a warpfire thrower. I know thanquol's boneripper bodyguard has one but a one use warpfire thrower on a unit champion rat ogre for like 30-45 pts would be funny to me. I don't think that'd be balanced but it'd be funny.

Killing Blow implies some kind of skill or ability. I mean, any attack can kill you. The fact that it ignores armour and Regeneration has to mean something beyond "he's big and strong".

Hatred makes them more accurate, but with the specific idea that they --hate-- some guys. Hatred doesn't have to mean that, of course, but why use the rule when you could just give them +1WS instead?

My main point, though, is that they don't need KB, AP, or Hatred. They're okay as they are. +1S wouldn't actually help them that much, but it would give them some extra punch against monsters, other MI, and heavy cavalry.
Again, I suggest S5 because it makes sense, and because it wouldn't help them tremendously. I say again: they don't need help. They just need to be cheaper. But why are they only just as strong as Saurus?

Rat Ogres are not very good. They're 50pts, WS3, and have no protection real protection.
If you want to start up a thread on Giant Rats and Rat Ogres and the like, I'd be happy to throw in some ideas there. But this is about Lizardmen.