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Made in hk
Alluring Mounted Daemonette





Melbourne

As the topic says. Local club is gonna recreate the Battle of Finuval Plains soon. Is this viable rule wise?

Urian Poisonblade

Urian was widely regarded as the best swordsman produced by the Druchii in 10 generations. He was Malekith’s favorite pit fighter until an inappropriate joke regarding Malekith and some Witch Elves landed him in the Witch King’s dungeons. Years of torture, spell-binding and training saw him reborn as the Witch King’s best spy and assassin. Sent to Ulthuan posing as a Prince Iltharis, his notable achievements were masterminding the lead-up to the Invasion of Ulthuan during the Great War against Chaos, assassinating the Everqueen, and training a young elf named Tyrion in the art of the blade. At the Battle of Finuval Plains, he revealed his true colors, stepping forward as the Champion of Malekith.
First he slew Prince Arhalien of Yvresse, considered the best lancer amongst the elves, taking his head with his first blow. Next he bested Korhien Ironglaive, Captain of the White Lions. He bisected Korhien’s halberd, then decapitated his old friend with his backswing. Last to step forward was his old pupil Tyrion, now the Champion of the Everqueen. Armed and armored with the sword and armor of Aenarion, Tyrion and Urian fought hundreds of rounds between the two waiting armies. Though details are unclear, Urian fell that day with Sunfang in his heart, perhaps a kindness, for it gave peace to his troubled mind.

420 points

Type: Infantry (unique)- Lord choice

M5 WS10 BS8 S4 T3 W3 I10 A5 Ld9

Equipment: Heavy armor

Elven Runesword: Magic Weapon. Gives +2 to Strength.

Options:

May be mounted on a Dark Steed for 25 points.

May take a shield for 5 points

Special Rules: Fear, Eternal Hatred, Always Strikes First

Magic Protection: Has Magic Resistance (2), but does not confer to his unit.

Supernatural Reflexes: Has a 4+ ward save, increased to 3+ in combat.

Traitor Prince: High Elves Hate Urian.

Slayer of Champions: Has Killing Blow on a 5+ in a challenge.

Pit-fighter: Urian is well known amongst the Dark Elves as the greatest pit fighter ever seen, though he has little experience commanding armies. Urian cannot be the army general. He presence slaughtering foes however is inspiring and invigorating. Friendly Dark Elf units within 12 inches of Urian can re-roll all failed psychology tests.

Doubts: Urian’s long exposure to the High Elves gave him something no Dark Elf could afford to have: a conscience. At the start of every combat phase, if Urian is in base contact with a High Elf unit excepting eagles or other non-elf models, he must take a Ld test. If passed, he fights normally. If failed, he suffers -2 to WS, I, and his ward save is reduced to 5+. This only lasts for that phase. If failed with double 6s, Urian cannot attack, is hit and wounded automatically, and cannot take his ward save.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/02/02 02:05:00


Glory to the Twelfth! Glory to Angron!

‎"Because we couldn’t be trusted. The Emperor needed a weapon that would never obey its own desires before those of the Imperium. He needed a weapon that would never bite the hand that feeds. The World Eaters were not that weapon. We’ve all drawn blades purely for the sake of shedding blood, and we’ve all felt the exultation of winning a war that never even needed to happen. We are not the tame, reliable pets that the Emperor wanted. The Wolves obey, when we would not. The Wolves can be trusted, when we never could. They have a discipline we lack, because their passions are not aflame with the Butcher’s Nails buzzing in the back of their skulls. The Wolves will always come to heel when called. In that regard, it is a mystery why they name themselves wolves. They are tame, collared by the Emperor, obeying his every whim. But a wolf doesn’t behave that way. Only a dog does. That is why we are the Eaters of Worlds, and the War Hounds no longer."

—Captain Khârn of the World Eaters Legion's 8th Assault Company, from his unpublished treatise The Eighteen Legions 
   
Made in us
Killer Klaivex




Oceanside, CA

I'd only be worried of the 2+ ward in combat. But since he has no armor at all, it isn't all the different than a 1+ re-rollable armor with 4+ ward.

Drop MR to 2. He doesn't gain anything from the 3rd point of MR (since he already would be at a 2+ ward vs spells). The 3rd point of MR would only benefit the unit he is in, and I don't see him really helping out other dark elf units all that much.

Also, I'd add in Killer not a Leader (other units cannot use his leadership), and maybe even have it extend to any unit he joins.



 thedarkavenger wrote:

So. I got a game with this list in. First game in at least 3-4 months.
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Nothing has a 2+ ward naturally. Not even Khairos Fateweaver. An immortal Daemon Lord that can see the future.

You've basically made a Bloodthirster that can join units and get a LoS and costs a lot less. Though he has lower T/W he also has KB and ASF.

I don't think there's much room for this kind of hero in 8th. He's just too good. He might have some parallels to units in 7th, but that edition is being phased out. Look at the Ogre Guttsman for comparison, who is nearly the same concept as this character and insanely worse.

Why he (or anyone) has BS8 when they don't even shoot anything is also...odd.

I understand he's expensive, but you've made a hero that is going to win 99% of all challenges to anyone ever. Which at any cost is pretty worthwhile. And even outside of combat he is nearly impossible to take down as he's immune to magic except on a 1, and is going to pass the big attribute tests except on a 6.

If you spent 400pts in any other army making a combat hero, you couldn't come close to making one this good. So that's a problem.

But do that as an experiment. Spend 300 (or however much) points on a combat hero and see what it buys you. Then exchange some of those abilities for unique abilities. If you want him to be nearly unkillable and have a 3+ ward, I can see that, but he can't be unkillable, KB, immune to magic, fear, and everything else. It's just too much.

   
Made in hk
Alluring Mounted Daemonette





Melbourne

Updated. And yes, he is designed to win every challenge. It did take geared up Tyrion to beat him eventually

Glory to the Twelfth! Glory to Angron!

‎"Because we couldn’t be trusted. The Emperor needed a weapon that would never obey its own desires before those of the Imperium. He needed a weapon that would never bite the hand that feeds. The World Eaters were not that weapon. We’ve all drawn blades purely for the sake of shedding blood, and we’ve all felt the exultation of winning a war that never even needed to happen. We are not the tame, reliable pets that the Emperor wanted. The Wolves obey, when we would not. The Wolves can be trusted, when we never could. They have a discipline we lack, because their passions are not aflame with the Butcher’s Nails buzzing in the back of their skulls. The Wolves will always come to heel when called. In that regard, it is a mystery why they name themselves wolves. They are tame, collared by the Emperor, obeying his every whim. But a wolf doesn’t behave that way. Only a dog does. That is why we are the Eaters of Worlds, and the War Hounds no longer."

—Captain Khârn of the World Eaters Legion's 8th Assault Company, from his unpublished treatise The Eighteen Legions 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





CalasTyphon216 wrote:
And yes, he is designed to win every challenge.

It's hard to see a reason what purpose this unit serves other than a really specific campaign. And then you don't need a point value or dice. Just say, "he wins."

If you want input on whether or not he's balanced for regular play, he's not remotely. He's better than the Everchosen (and I'm betting a lot more come Satuday) at a way cheaper price. So greater than the greatest god-sponsored champion.

   
Made in us
Killer Klaivex




Oceanside, CA

DukeRustfield wrote:
CalasTyphon216 wrote:
And yes, he is designed to win every challenge.

It's hard to see a reason what purpose this unit serves other than a really specific campaign. And then you don't need a point value or dice. Just say, "he wins."

If you want input on whether or not he's balanced for regular play, he's not remotely. He's better than the Everchosen (and I'm betting a lot more come Satuday) at a way cheaper price. So greater than the greatest god-sponsored champion.


2+ ward looks awesome, but he is T3, on foot, and no armor. S6 is nice, but that's a pretty common thing for fighting heroes. What he's really go going for him is killing blow, but that's not all that great.
I'd say that the basic Slaughtermaster would give this guy some trouble. Actually, anyone who isn't going to crap their pants about killing blow, and who can spend 15 points on the The Other Tricksters Shard is going to have a shot at mr 2+ ward. With the shard, he's failing ~30% of the time.
A 1+ re-rollable save with 4+ ward is tougher to kill.

At 400 points, I wouldn't take him. As for the BS of 8, fluff says he was trained as an assassin. Dark Elf assassins are BS9.


 thedarkavenger wrote:

So. I got a game with this list in. First game in at least 3-4 months.
 
   
Made in gb
Assassin with Black Lotus Poison





Bristol

That "Doubts" special rule really doesn't fit.

Urian was the personal champion of the Witch King himself. If Malekith had seen any hesitation or conscience in him then Urian would have been killed for being too weak.

The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.

Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





A slaughtermaster couldn't touch him. He's WS10 and all his attacks go first. The SM has a 1/3 chance of hitting whereas he has a 2/3's chance of hitting. They have an equal chance of wounding. Then there's the ward save. The ONLY reason the SM has a remote chance is because he's MI and immune to the 5+ KB. But everyone else is literally going to die on the first round before they can do anything.

This guy I'm sure is great in a short story. Or comic book.

   
Made in us
Killer Klaivex




Oceanside, CA

DukeRustfield wrote:
A slaughtermaster couldn't touch him. He's WS10 and all his attacks go first. The SM has a 1/3 chance of hitting whereas he has a 2/3's chance of hitting. They have an equal chance of wounding. Then there's the ward save. The ONLY reason the SM has a remote chance is because he's MI and immune to the 5+ KB. But everyone else is literally going to die on the first round before they can do anything.

This guy I'm sure is great in a short story. Or comic book.


Huh... I run my slaughtermaster with WS10 and an extra attack. Along with that, you've got to re-roll to wound me, and odds are good I'm healing wounds when I cast, and getting either +1 toughness or regeneration.

So he hits on 4's with re-rolls, wounds on 3's but re-rolls successes. If I get either spell off, that changes wounds to 4's (25% chance after re-roll) or regenerate (cuts wounds in half).
It will typically shake out to less than a wound a turn.
Meanwhile, slaughter master hits back on 4+, wounds on 3+, and elf saves on a 2+; and then I get an auto hit stomp. You're also taking Ld9 fear tests, which isn't awesome, but over a prolonged duel, may come up once.

I'd actually consider throwing my Dread Knight Vampire lord at this guy.
Vampire Lord, heavy armor, shield, barded steed, lance, Nightshroud, other trick shard, and talisman of preservation. Bloodlines are Red Fury, aura of dark majesty, dreadknight and beguile.
Combat starts with fear test at -1, then beguile leadership test at -4 (or you have to re-roll to wound). You lose always strike first and gain always strike last. I go first, hitting on 4's (unless you failed fear 28% chance), and wound on 2's. Horse hits on 5's and wounds on 3's. You save on a 2+ invul, but must re-roll successes. I gain extra attacks for wounds delt.
You hit on 3's (unless fear was failed), with re-rolls in the first round from hate, and wound on 5's since nightshroud also strips your weapons strength bonus (and you must re-roll success 73% of the time thanks to beguile). Anything that does wound would bypass my armor save (killing blow) and I'd get a 4+ ward.
It's a very close fight, depending on how beguile, fear and redfury play out.
Vampire lord is 463, but he's also a level 1 wizard, and has 1+ armor he isn't using, and swift strider.

Dwarves would totally own that guy, 1+ re-rollable armor and immune to killing blow neuters him.

Edit: with the revisions, he's more balanced. worse ward with a bit of armor is better rules.

-Matt

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/02/02 21:44:30


 thedarkavenger wrote:

So. I got a game with this list in. First game in at least 3-4 months.
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





HawaiiMatt wrote:
Huh... I run my slaughtermaster with WS10 and an extra attack.

Well, good for you. But the vast majority of the heroes in the game will die to this hero regardless of cost. The question isn't whether one build of one lord of one army book is viable. That's not a balance question. If that's what he wants balanced he can state that. Trying to make a hero specifically to defeat him and using that as some kind of justification for his cost doesn't make sense.

Mournfangs totally suck against someone who is immediately in close combat with ASF and HKB. But you don't use that to say Mournfangs are lousy, because they obviously aren't.

   
Made in hk
Alluring Mounted Daemonette





Melbourne

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
That "Doubts" special rule really doesn't fit.

Urian was the personal champion of the Witch King himself. If Malekith had seen any hesitation or conscience in him then Urian would have been killed for being too weak.


Spoiler:
In Sword of Caledor you see him beginning to have doubts about himself. Having spent so long undercover he started to like the High Elves, and actually shows regret/remorse after killing the Everqueen (alarielle's predecessor). When Tyrion casually questions him about it he nearly blew his cover, and then he spent their practice bout contemplating whether Tyrion needed to be killed on the spot to be silenced. I suspect that when Bane of Malekith is released in December, that Urian lost his duel to Tyrion because he hesistated to kill his protege

Glory to the Twelfth! Glory to Angron!

‎"Because we couldn’t be trusted. The Emperor needed a weapon that would never obey its own desires before those of the Imperium. He needed a weapon that would never bite the hand that feeds. The World Eaters were not that weapon. We’ve all drawn blades purely for the sake of shedding blood, and we’ve all felt the exultation of winning a war that never even needed to happen. We are not the tame, reliable pets that the Emperor wanted. The Wolves obey, when we would not. The Wolves can be trusted, when we never could. They have a discipline we lack, because their passions are not aflame with the Butcher’s Nails buzzing in the back of their skulls. The Wolves will always come to heel when called. In that regard, it is a mystery why they name themselves wolves. They are tame, collared by the Emperor, obeying his every whim. But a wolf doesn’t behave that way. Only a dog does. That is why we are the Eaters of Worlds, and the War Hounds no longer."

—Captain Khârn of the World Eaters Legion's 8th Assault Company, from his unpublished treatise The Eighteen Legions 
   
 
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