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Made in us
Evasive Eshin Assassin





Nothing real serious here. Just a few musings I thought I'd throw out here to see what people think:

Changes:

Vermin Lord

Wounds 6, Always Strikes First, Daemonic (Unbreakable, Unstable, 5+ Ward save), can be Army General. Cost= lvl4 Greater Daemon
Assassin
WS8 BS8
Skavenslaves
Strength 2
Night Runners
Skirmish- +1pt/model
Doomflayer
Toughness 4, Wounds 2
Warp-Grinder
50pts
Jezzail Team
Skirmish. Sharp-shooter Team has the Sniper special rule.
Hell-Pit Abomination
Immune to Psychology
Warp Lightning Cannon
100pts
Plague Claw Catapult
90pts

Magic Item list:
Weapons- the Fellblade, Warlock-Augmented Weapon, Weeping Blade.
Armour- Warpstone Armour, World’s Edge Armour.
Talismans- Foul Pendant (something else), Shadow Magnet Trinket.
Arcane Items- Warp-energy Condenser, Warpstone Tokens 10pts
Enchanted Items- Skavenbrew, Skalm, Portents of Verminous Doom.
Clan Eshin Tools of War- as-is.
Clan Skryre Gear of War- Brass Orb, Doom Rocket- move-or-fire, Death Globe.
Clan Pestilens Befouled Items- Warp Scroll, Plague Banner
Clan Moulder Beast-Prods- Shock-prod 15pts
Magic Standards- Sacred Banner of the Horned Rat, Storm Banner, Banner of the Under-Empire

New Ideas:

Master Moulder
A unit of Giant Rats with a Master Moulder counts towards minimum Core. Things-catcher 4pts (no option for a great weapon). A unit with a Master Moulder may be upgraded as follows:

Boosted Speed- the unit gains +1M and Swiftstride. Any Packmasters in the unit gain this upgrade at no cost. Giant Rats purchase this upgrade at +1pt/model. Rat Ogres purchase this upgrade at +5pts/model.
Poison glands- the Giant Rats or Rat Ogres in the unit gain Poisoned Attacks. Giant Rats purchase this upgrade at +2pts/model. Rat Ogres purchase this upgrade at +5pts/model.
Regeneration- the Giant Rats or Rat Ogres in the unit gain Regeneration. Giant Rats gain Regeneration (5+) for +2pts/model. Rat Ogres gain Regeneration (4+) for +10pts/model.
Weapon Augmentations- the Giant Rats or Rat Ogres in the unit gain Amour Piercing and Magical Attacks. Giant Rats purchase this upgrade at +1pt/model. Rat Ogres purchase this upgrade at +5pts/model.

new Lord-character: Warlock Master (50pts)
- WS3 BS4 S4 T4 W3 I6 A2 Ld6
- Upgrades (as Warlock Engineer)

new Warlock Engineer upgrades
- Mechanical Carapace (+1S, +1T, -1I, +1A, 4+ armour save) 40pts
- Warlock-Augmented Weapon (as magic weapon) 20pts
- Warpfire projector (as Warpfire Thrower, but one use only) 40pts
- Warlock Optics (as enchanted item [+1BS and ignore penalties due to cover]) 15pts

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/21 22:53:09


 
   
Made in us
Calculating Commissar




pontiac, michigan; usa

Warlocks need the warpfire jetpacks.

We need a unit for the jetpack skaven.

Is it possible we can have a different type of unit that throws brass orbs except much weaker, no blast and no instant kill just no saves allowed and initiative tests or other characteristic stats perhaps (sort of like poisoned wind globes but a bit different or as a replacement for the poisoned wind globadiers).

If no to the upgrade for poisoned wind globadiers how about something similar to the poisoned wind mortar that shoots out small weaker brass orbs (or a special character type unit for that).

We could also use some steaming robotic giant rat machine skryre variant for the hellpit abomination.

Clan eshin needs mini-doom rocketeers possibly which use the small template instead of large (very asian in origin). I imagine these are incredibly small units similar to jezzails and it is move or fire. The weapons should be very random.

Clan eshin could alternatively maybe have small one man (rat?) kites they can deploy to fly once per battle. This might possibly be done as a sort of arrives off the board with a fly move type thing.

Wolf rats or rat cavalry should be possible for clan moulder.

I think that plague monks could also have sort of a 'cauldron of blood' (except a priest overseeing plagues with dutiful plague monks) type unit that just buffs all their units on the field or hexes the enemy overall.

--------------------

Magic should be boosted more with larger versions like all 8th edition magic has. This includes scorch, howling warpgale, possibly bless with filth, cloud of corruption, death frenzy and wither as well as any i may have missed.

Magic should also have the current substitution spells (except the 13th spell) as signature spells for the appropriate wizard. This means warlocks can use warp lightning as a signature spell, grey seers use skitterleap as their signature and plague priests use pestilent breath as their's. For vermin lords i'd go with possibly some sort of howl attack. Something new possibly (most magic lores have 6 spells and 1 signature) like maybe vermin lords can choose from a couple really powerful spells that is only available to them as vermin lords (warpfire breath?).

----------------------

Magic items should be heavily reduced with a good 2 or 3 weapons tops. Probably just the fellblade and weeping blades with warlock augmented weapons as strictly a weapon upgrade for warlocks. More likely assassins can have a weapon upgrade to weeping blades whereas an engineer can get their warlock augmented weapons and it isn't displayed in magic items but costs against their magic items limit. So really for weapons you just have the fellblade maybe.

Death globes should be for poisoned wind globadiers only as a champion upgrade and not as magic items for characters.

Honestly they could cut the warp scroll and i wouldn't care.

Foul pendant isn't needed as we already have similar rulebook wargear.

That's pretty much all your wargear options i'd change.

Warlocks should also probably come at base wizard level 1 just as plague monks. It'd stop the stupid warlock spam that's honestly probably OP with certain magic items.

Doom rocket should possibly be available for clan eshin rather than skryre considering it was stolen from the far east.

-------------------------

Something about jezzails totally needs the sniper rule. Skirmishers is needed a lot to help vs enemy shooting that uses ballistic skill.

Slaves are fine they just need a point increase to 2 1/2 to 3 points.

Clanrats could probably do at 5 pts at start. Upgrades should be cheap esp. spears considering the ward saves you get with hand weapon and shield.

Hard to say if nightrunners should be cheaper than stormvermin as they have slings. I'd keep the rank-and-file as they are meant as fodder so only the best live.

Assassin probably has a decent stat-line for what it is. Remember that skaven warlords are only WS 6 so going much higher than a 7 or 8 is unlikely. Initiative may not even be at a 10. I'd like to see improved BS but an 8 also seems unlikely considering most skaven don't go farther than BS 4.

Vermin lord. I dunno if i agree with this completely with him being a general but i do with mostly everything else. I think he should be better including magic and get upgrades to his weapon or magic depending on the loadout he chooses but maybe that's just me. Options should be allowed rather than the same wargear for every vermin lord. I figure things like terror and monster as well as a lot of these should be base but weapons, powers or abilities (possibly) as well as wizard ability should be upgraded through a cost option the player chooses. I can imagine they are much better wizards than grey seers since they teach them and that their WS and initiative should be super high. Perhaps one upgrade could be hatred or a massive amount of attacks or a massive strike for heroic killing blow or something that does a flame template in damage to a unit. This sounds like a lot but with a points system for upgrades and abilities i think it's ok. I don't mean i'd go for everything just one or two things though all of it could be done but would end up super points heavy.

-----------------

Those are my ideas. You can mull through them. They're mostly just stuff i'm thinking up and not all of it has to be in the revision to the army. This is just what i'd like to see.

This message was edited 7 times. Last update was at 2013/04/26 01:05:35


Join skavenblight today!

http://the-under-empire.proboards.com/ (my skaven forum) 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





A vermin lord is almost exactly the same as a lvl 4 GD in every way. Like 20pt difference. But a GD is unstable and isn't unbreakable. No DoC lords are unbreakable. The Glaive is worth 50 pts, as that's what a GUO pays for it.

   
Made in us
Evasive Eshin Assassin





@DukeRustfield: My big problems are that the Vermin Lord has no possible upgrades, can be broken and run down, is less durable than Greater Daemons, and can't be your General.

I meant to make them Unstable, not Unbreakable (for some reason, I thought that all Unstable units were also Unbreakable. Hold out from 7th?). But that's mostly out of a desire for Daemons from various armies to follow the same effing rules.

A Great Unclean One pays 50pts for Multiple Wounds (D3)? ...why?


@flamingkillamajig: we need to keep a tight reign on just how many things should feasibly be included in an army.
I think Clan Skryre should have a handful more toys, because that's what they do. Hand-held Warpfire projectors? Sure. Jetpacks? Awesome. But if we add a giant ratbot, variations on the Doomrocket, Brass Orb, Poisoned Wind Globes, some glider-things, etc., it starts to get out of hand.
The Brass Orb, at the least, should stay all alone. Opening portals to the Realm of Chaos should be an extremely rare and awesome thing.

Slaves could cost more, or they could get even worse. I think it ought to be the latter, so I can still field huge quantities of rats, if I so choose.

Clanrats are fine as they are. No one's complaining about how they're too cheap. Most people only take them because Slaves auto-die when they break.

Night Runners cost the same as Stormvermin before the sling upgrade. I'm suggesting they have an option to be Skirmishers for an additional 1pt/model (for a total of 9pts, with slings).

I'd like to see Skaven and Dark Elf Assassins being more or less the same thing, with Skaven having slightly worse stats (-1WS and BS, but same I).
Skaven characters are worse, but Skaven also have a larger spectrum of capability. Malekith is X much more awesome than a run-of-the-mill Dark Elf Spearman, while one of the Lords of Decay is 2X more awesome than the standard Slave.
I'm willing to pay the cost for a better character (though Assassins in general should probably see a point drop), but I think it'd be cool to represent that Skaven potential for greatness via Warpstone-enhanced lifespans and taking advantage of their inhuman physicality.

I did mean to revise the Skaven spells, mostly to give them types (Direct Damage, Hex, etc.). But attributes and signature spells would be a worthwhile endeavor.
I'd really like to keep the total number at 13, though. 9 normal spells and...4 Signatures? Maybe 10 and 3 would be easiest.
Of course, that means that Grey Seers won't have access to Plague Breath and Warp Lightning. But I guess having two Lore Attributes and the Expand-a-Spell mechanic would make up for that?

 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





They are almost exactly the same as GDs as it is. They are lvl 4 Keepers of Secrets. The KoS has better stats, 2M, 1WS, 1T, 1A, 1LD, but that's about 10% +-. The vermin lord has better spells and a D3 weapon. You can argue whether it's better to be able to run away at +1 distance and reform or blink out of existence because of unstable rolls.

A balesword is D3 and costs 50 and only a GUO can get it, though it's also poison.

As for the 1:1 comparison with GDs, Skaven aren't DoC. DoC doesn't have skaven slaves either. It's clear the Vermin Lord isn't a common guy and isn't really the type of gameplay Skaven seem to be geared towards. You can go mass rat ogres too, but Rat Ogres are just sucky ogres and if you try and MI your way against a true MI army, you'll lose. Just like if Ogres tried to horde their way vs. skaven using gnoblars, they would lose.

Only WoC can do everything. Though people (presumably with shelves and shelves of dusty marauders) keep saying the new book is the worst ever...

   
Made in us
Superior Stormvermin






Allen Texas

I'm greedy, I just want more stuff, New clan Skyre Warmachines, a bolt thrower equivalent, plastic Globladiers and census bearers, Wacky units for all the clans, I don't even want buffs really, all I want is for more variety to be added to an already gloriously diverse army book.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/27 01:49:36


Silacier & Rozgarth: Hey you should start playing warmahords with us.
Me: OK (sets down Tyranid, drives to store and picks up Legion of Everblight)
Me: the more things change....
 
   
Made in us
Killer Klaivex




Oceanside, CA

Skaven assassins already are better.
In a world of step up, T4 and 4+ ward is better than the statline.

The only build of dark elf assassin I still see working is rending star assassin leading shades, and never ever going into combat.


 thedarkavenger wrote:

So. I got a game with this list in. First game in at least 3-4 months.
 
   
Made in us
Evasive Eshin Assassin





@DukeRustfield: the difference in Movement, Weapon Skill, and Attacks I can accept; Greater Daemons vary from one god to the next.
Leadership is also fine, since that's a classic Skaven flaw.
I thought the Vermin Lord was equal in Toughness but trailing behind by 1 Wound, but I guess it's the other way around. And that's really all I want to see. A 500pt T5 model that can't join units has to worry about a much wider range of threats than a T6 one.

I don't care if breaking/fleeing is better than Instability. I'd just like to see a little cohesion. It's not a huge deal, but since he's a big monster with relatively few attacks, and he doesn't have Stubborn...
But then again, I suppose Daemons and Skaven both insta-die if you brick that one roll, be it flee distance or from Unstable?

50pts for a Multiple Wounds (D3) seems like a terrible deal.

And yeah, I guess he's got better spells. Ideally, though, I'd hope for all the Lores to be viable. An army that's strong in the magic phase should come from ways to generate extra dice/bonuses to cast, not access to the "good" Lores.

@HawaiiMatt: Skaven assassins are better overall. I just wanna see them both be actually good. High Weapon Skill, a decent to good Dodge, and s'more options and higher stats on the Dark Elf end, in exchange for more points and that T3.
Also, I've seen some cool stuff happen with (I forget the Gift names) KB, +D3 attacks, and the poison that lets you re-roll 1's to Wound.
The real problem with assassins of any kind is that the chances they actually complete the job of their namesake is so slim. Which makes sense, historically. On the actual field of battle, I mean. I feel like you end up paying too much for a highly skilled but fragile fighter who lacks offensive power, can't pass on his Ld, but, hey, he can jump out and surprise your opponent. Which will be tangibly beneficial...one in twenty games.

 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Warpsolution wrote:
A 500pt T5 model that can't join units has to worry about a much wider range of threats than a T6 one.

T is just one factor. Going back to the KoS, they both are going to have a 50% chance of being hit at the most, by pretty much anything in the game. Only things with Str 4+ are going to have any difference and of those it's going only in the range of 4-8 (and really that's 4-6), and in that it's only a 16.6% difference at each step. If you wound, then they have the same 1/3rd chance of ward.

Since their ward and WS are effectively the same, it's one roll out of 3 in terms of defense and that varies by 1/6th for enemies with 4-6 strength. That is not "a much wider range of threats."

Even if you discount WS, since just about everyone is in the same ballpark, they aren't tremendously different. It's only the monsters that have nothing but T/W and some junky armor save where it becomes your primary concern. Like TK monsters.

   
Made in us
Evasive Eshin Assassin





Sorry, I should clarify: I'm talking mostly about shooting.

Handguns and crossbows are a serious threat to a Vermin Lord, as are war machines beyond cannons.
I know that he's fast enough to get into combat to avoid that stuff, but he's not an especially reliable combatant, so you usually have to pick your fights carefully. That, and the rest of the army is still M5. I don't think he should be better at fighting, though; I like the idea that he's got to be crafty.

Really, since he's a "Greater Daemon", I just thought he ought to have the same stats as the other Greater Daemons (the stats they all have in common, anyway). I know they're from different books and blah blah blah, but the bottom line is: no one uses the Vermin Lord, and I'd like to see him now and again.
Allowing him to be the General would be the easiest way.

 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Handguns and crossbows are almost non-existent in WHFB. All BS shooting is pretty negligible.

Any war machines that can hurt a GD or VL will hurt them regardless of whether toughness is 1-6 exactly the same. The vast majority are cannons and stone throwers, which won't care in the slightest. Fire thrower isn't going to be used on monsters. Bolt throwers just aren't that common and aren't the greatest anti-monster, but it's still just 1/6th difference 50% of their defensive rolls. I.e., it's just as good (bad) defending against war machines as a GD.

I'm saying no one uses the VL not because he sucks. He's almost exactly the same as a GD. They don't use him because he probably doesn't fit in the army that well and having 50 other characters, who are cheap and provide army cover, is better than one mega super character who can't join units. His stats are almost identical to a GD. His cost is almost identical. His spell level, etc.

I don't amazingly care if he could be general or not. I think it should be whomever has highest LD. I mean you got a representative direct from the Horned Rat, is he really going to be taking orders from some little cheese addict?

   
Made in us
Killer Klaivex




Oceanside, CA

DukeRustfield wrote:
Warpsolution wrote:
A 500pt T5 model that can't join units has to worry about a much wider range of threats than a T6 one.

T is just one factor. Going back to the KoS, they both are going to have a 50% chance of being hit at the most, by pretty much anything in the game. Only things with Str 4+ are going to have any difference and of those it's going only in the range of 4-8 (and really that's 4-6), and in that it's only a 16.6% difference at each step. If you wound, then they have the same 1/3rd chance of ward.

Since their ward and WS are effectively the same, it's one roll out of 3 in terms of defense and that varies by 1/6th for enemies with 4-6 strength. That is not "a much wider range of threats."

Going from Toughness 6 to Toughness 5, you:
You're the same vs S3 or less.
You take 100% more wounds from S4.
You take 50% more wounds from S5.
You take 33% more wounds from S6.
You take 20% more wounds from S7.
You take the same vs S8 or higher.

The problem is, S4 to S6 is what I typically see units packing in melee.
The simply fact is that anything S4 is going to grind through a Vermin Lord twice as fast as they would a keeper of secrets.
IMO, the glaive should be an optional upgrade, and he should be a level 1 wizard, with options to upgrade to a level 4.

I'd call him 350 base, +35 for each magic level, and +45 for the glaive; and T6. Still 500 points all tooled up, but you've got some lower point options.

-Matt


 thedarkavenger wrote:

So. I got a game with this list in. First game in at least 3-4 months.
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Saying something takes 100% zomg more wounds from str4 is another way of saying going from incredibly unlikely to wound to very unlikely.

1/6th is the smallest increments we can move in. That's just the way it is. There is no .3 increases to toughness or ward save. But to put some real numbers behind your stats.

If 10 ogres are attacking both guys. That's 30 attacks. half will miss each. Going down to 15. 1/6th will wound GD, that's 2.5W. Of those, 1/3 will be blocked, that's .83W. The vermin lord will take 1.6 a turn. That's 300+ points utilized and it simply doesn't do much. They will both do vastly more in return. The VL will especially decimate them because of his glaive and they would break long before.

   
Made in us
Killer Klaivex




Oceanside, CA

DukeRustfield wrote:
Saying something takes 100% zomg more wounds from str4 is another way of saying going from incredibly unlikely to wound to very unlikely.

1/6th is the smallest increments we can move in. That's just the way it is. There is no .3 increases to toughness or ward save. But to put some real numbers behind your stats.

If 10 ogres are attacking both guys. That's 30 attacks. half will miss each. Going down to 15. 1/6th will wound GD, that's 2.5W. Of those, 1/3 will be blocked, that's .83W. The vermin lord will take 1.6 a turn. That's 300+ points utilized and it simply doesn't do much. They will both do vastly more in return. The VL will especially decimate them because of his glaive and they would break long before.

Ogres are a great example.

Actually, it doesn't play out that way.
18 attacks (only 3 touch in the front rank). 5+ to hit (WS3 vs WS >6)
vs Greater Daemon, 6+ to wound, 5+ for ward save = .66 wounds (about 2 wounds every 3rd round of combat)
vs Vermin Lord, 5+ to wound, 5+ for ward save = 1.33 wounds (about 4 wounds every 3 rounds of combat).

The vermin lord in return does 5 attacks, 3+ to hit, 3+ to wound, 6+ to parry, D3 wounds. Or, ~3.7 wounds per phase. With a rank, standard and 1.33 wounds, it's a close fight. The difference is the ogres are steadfast and the vermin lord is unstable.

Greater Daemon: well say level 4 wizard with a 25 point gift (505 points, as close to 500 as can get). For daemon, lets compare to keeper of secrets.
6 attacks, hits on 3's with re-rolls (sword of swiftness), wounds on 2's (S6 armor piercing), 6+ parry. Oddly, he does ~3.7 wounds. Of course, he's +1 leadership over the Vermin Lord.
Great Unclean one is going to show up with fencers blades, and will only be hit on 6's.
Lord of Change shows up with the wand of whimsy and in a magic phase or two, massively out stats the Vermin Lord.
Blood Thrister comes in at 100 points cheaper (base) and with gifts massively outclasses the vermin lord.

Against anything you can thunderstomp on, the daemons will typically be winning combat. The problem with this is that there are very few units in the game with both multiple wounds and that you can thunderstomp on. If you can't use both rules, any of the Greater Daemons work out to be better; because of the ability to get re-rolls to hit, and having more attacks to begin with.


You have to try pretty hard to come up with an opponent that the vermin lord is better against.

-Matt

 thedarkavenger wrote:

So. I got a game with this list in. First game in at least 3-4 months.
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Vermin Lord isn't unstable. GD is. If GD fails his roll he has a 1 in 12 of blipping out of existence. And a 1 in 12 of healing up to 5 wounds. It's a bad roll for DoC.

You're cherry picking again to match your scenario. I like how the fight begins a phase or two later to benefit the LoC. Instead of the other way around.

As for the VL being better, it's not supposed to be. DoC lords are ALL GD. That's it. It isn't a throwaway unit that may/may not be as good as the best (and only) options another army can use. DoC will never out-horde Skaven. They will never out war machine them either, though they got closer with cannon. Won't outshoot Skaven. Won't have more overall options. There's a whole list of categories we can break out and go omg, skaven's better. Well, yeah.

Comparing unit:unit never works across books. If you lifted a Bloodthirster (or any other) straight out of DoC, plopped in it, had the requirement that you suffer the same winds of magic nonsense, unstable tests, unchooseable magic items, I'm pretty certain no competitive Skaven army would dare touch him. But the GDs aren't just a combo of their stats, they are all of that.

   
Made in us
Killer Klaivex




Oceanside, CA

It's 1:36 not 1 in 12. And it's less than that really, becuase greater daemons are WINNING and not testing at all.
I thought the vermin lord was unstable. If not, he's actually worse, because at Ld8, he's going to break. Without swift stride, he's at high risk of being run down.
All DoC lords are not all GD. See daemon prince.
As for not taking the bloodthirster, I don't think I'd take him in any list. He's not better enough to justify not taking a level 3 or level 4 wizard. Now that horrors can't level up, you're crippling your magic defense for a marginal increase is greater daemon power.
I cherry picked the scenario? I used the 10 ogres you set up, to show that the Glaives D3 wounds isn't all that good. How exactly is a lord of change going to be in combat before the 3rd magic phase (that's a charge on the first have of turn 2)?
The problem isn't that the vermin lord is Lord isn't better, the problem is he isn't in the same ball park in performance, but he is in point cost.

Personally, I think the Vermin Lord should be more in the range of a daemon prince. ~250 points base, with upgrade options.

Comparing units cross books does work to some extent. If Orcs and Goblins get a Kannon of Mork that works just like a great cannon, only is Ld5 and crewed by night goblins and costs 50 points, you can say, hey, that's not right. Cannons are going for 120 points and up in 8th edition. This is why everyone unilaterally says beastmen monsters are over-priced. They compare what they do and their cost, with other armies monsters.

Now I haven't seen a game against skaven since the DoC FAQ, but I'm going to bet that the winds of magic possibly hitting every skaven unit, lone character, weapon team, and giant rat redirecting pack is pretty good. It won't be as good against my O&G that runs 6 units, but it will be decent against the 15-20 units I see skaven drop.

As for shoot outs, I don't know that I'd bet against daemons. 2 cannons and 2 flying fire throwers can put a pretty good dent. Support with screamers (slash attack is still decent) and ambushing Flesh Hounds and you have not only solid shooting, but you've also got great shooting support. Again, I haven't seen a max shoot daemon army, so it's theory.

-Matt

 thedarkavenger wrote:

So. I got a game with this list in. First game in at least 3-4 months.
 
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Earth

Skaven magic needs to be brought in line with the rest of 8th, almost all the characters are over costed.
Hellpit massively toned down or raised to 300pts each.
   
Made in us
Evasive Eshin Assassin





I don't think you can compare units from one book to another with 100 accuracy. But maybe something like 75%. Enough to determine who should cost what, anyway.

I like the idea of a cheaper Vermin Lord with a few options. He shouldn't have too many (just magic levels and a Doom Glaive), but a monster-General that is reasonably survivable for his points and can't take down other monsters all on his own? Seems very Skaven-y to me.

As for magic, I'd first establish spell type:

Skitterleap (augment), Warp Lightning (magic missile), Howling Warp-Gale (unique), Death Frenzy (augment), Scorch (direct damage), Crack's Call (direct damage), Pestilent Breath (direct damage, 2d6 hits when used in combat), Bless with Filth (augment), Wither (hex), Vermintide (direct damage), Cloud of Corruption (direct damage), Plague (direct damage), the Curse of the Horned Rat (direct damage)

Seem right?

And then we'd turn Skitterleap, Warp Lightning, Pestilent Breath, and the 13th into Signature spells?
Not sure about that part. Because then, we're looking at Engineers who always have a chance at getting something besides Warp Lightning, and never get Skitterleap (so Scorch and Crack's Call would be easier to get).
Thoughts?

Lore Attributes are tough. Maybe Ruin offers some kind of bonus to cast, or does something related to lighting/storms/flying/shooting?
Plague can deal damage to enemies in contact with the Wizard, like Vermintide and the Banner of the Under Empire?

I'm not too concerned about Special Characters, honestly. I have no interest in them.
I would, I think, if more of them were like Skarsnik; characters that offer a new way to play, not just a specialized Lord or Hero who costs a lot and maybe lets you take some Special unit as Core.

Finally, the Hellpit Abomination: I've heard people complain about him, but besides having good defensive and offensive rules, what about him is specifically broken or under-costed? I've never found my A-bomb to wreck my opponent too much. He either makes well under his points back or a little more.

 
   
Made in us
Killer Klaivex




Oceanside, CA

 Formosa wrote:
Skaven magic needs to be brought in line with the rest of 8th, almost all the characters are over costed.
Hellpit massively toned down or raised to 300pts each.

I'd like to see the hell pit at 275. That way if you take 2, you get no other rare choices in any game 2500 or smaller.

Skaven magic is fine. It's pretty good actually. Given armies with their own lores, I'd place skaven at the top, or near the top.
If you want to feel better about the skaven lores, take a look at tomb kings.
And 13th spell? Sign me up.

-Matt

 thedarkavenger wrote:

So. I got a game with this list in. First game in at least 3-4 months.
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





HawaiiMatt wrote:
And it's less than that really, becuase greater daemons are WINNING and not testing at all.
I thought the vermin lord was unstable. If not, he's actually worse, because at Ld8, he's going to break. Without swift stride, he's at high risk of being run down.
All DoC lords are not all GD. See daemon prince.

I don't think you're trying anymore. No one takes DP on DoC because they are still sucky and you know that, so you're being silly. Rats run at +1. GD don't run, they just crumble. If the VL is losing and running at +1 the GD is taking modified unstable tests. Depending on what the modifier is, running faster than your enemy is better than taking more wounds. Just depends on when the combat takes place and how much you're losing by. He had to have taken wounds to be taking a test, if the VL is caught he dies, if the GD fails enough, he dies.

I cherry picked the scenario? I used the 10 ogres you set up, to show that the Glaives D3 wounds isn't all that good. How exactly is a lord of change going to be in combat before the 3rd magic phase (that's a charge on the first have of turn 2)?

I didn't set up 10 ogres. You tried to make a 1:1 comparison on stats and started one unit off with a multi-round headstart on the only item in the game that benefits massively from that. Why not just have the VL cast dread 13th on the enemy's Archaon unit and kill 2Kpoints worth of units. ZOMG VL is vastly better!!111 Or have the enemy be hit by multiple warp lightning cannons since we're coming up with random occurrences before the actual comparison that only benefit one side of the equation.

The problem isn't that the vermin lord is Lord isn't better, the problem is he isn't in the same ball park in performance, but he is in point cost.

You've done nothing to show he's not "in the same ballpark." You showed they are exactly in the same ballpark. Less than a wound difference every round. On a monster, that's the same ballpark. Fighting <str 4 they are identical. Exactly the same. Not the same ballpark, 100% identical. Fighting super enemies, like challenges, the D3 wounds will help out even more. In fact, if a VL were to fight a KoS, they are back to the same ballpark cuz the VL does double dmg but is one less to hit and wound and has one less attack.>

   
Made in us
Superior Stormvermin






Allen Texas

To be honest using a Vermin Lord as general would be pretty silly, considering that only Grey Seer's can summon them, and they HATE having to do that because Vermin Lords are Skaven's cruelty and viciousness given form and a big spooky sword. The simple threat of of a Vermin Seer being summoned is enough to have most warlords stop bickering and "work together", if anything there should be a rule that a Vermin Lord may only join the army if a grey seer is present. However that is no fun and would require stupid high point games, my answer. The Vermin Lord is pretty good, but he isn't great, try him in a Storm of Magic game and you'll have a blast, play him for fun and the results will be pretty fun as well, with a good magic phase you can have him skitter-leaping around casting Cracks call or Vermin Tide across the whole backfield. The only changes I would want would be a point decrease, and maybe some sort of chart that could cause a bunch of strange events to occur around him such as...

YES MY LORD.....right away... - a nearby Skaven unit gains the Stubborn Special rule.

Warp Rain- 2D6 strength 2 hits to all units withing 12 inches

Glory To The Horned One- A Nearby Skaven unit gains the Hatred special rule for a round.

And more but those are top-of-the-head examples, turn him into a potentially dangerous centerpiece that can lay down some respectable combat and magical smack-down. Also I'm tired of you two arguing with each other, stay civil.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/05/01 01:21:58


Silacier & Rozgarth: Hey you should start playing warmahords with us.
Me: OK (sets down Tyranid, drives to store and picks up Legion of Everblight)
Me: the more things change....
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Fluff can always be rewritten. I don't see why a VL can't lead. He's too expensive to have as a really gigantic monster-caster-thing in addition to your regular general requirements.

He doesn't need any other buffs. He's as good as a GD. Anything more and he simply has to have his costs raised even further.

   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Earth

HawaiiMatt wrote:
 Formosa wrote:
Skaven magic needs to be brought in line with the rest of 8th, almost all the characters are over costed.
Hellpit massively toned down or raised to 300pts each.

I'd like to see the hell pit at 275. That way if you take 2, you get no other rare choices in any game 2500 or smaller.

Skaven magic is fine. It's pretty good actually. Given armies with their own lores, I'd place skaven at the top, or near the top.
If you want to feel better about the skaven lores, take a look at tomb kings.
And 13th spell? Sign me up.

-Matt


I agree skaven magic is.fine, just needs bringing in line, augments, direct damage etc.
   
Made in us
Evasive Eshin Assassin





I don't think Vermin Lords should be right up there with Greater Daemons; they should be a little worse (like most Skaven characters).
But in 8th edition, monsters already struggle with survivability so much. I'd like to see the VL get a little boost or a little point drop to reflect that.
If the difference between T5 and T6 really is that negligible, why not just give it to him?
No one takes this guy, which is a shame. Which is the case with any unit in any book. I'd like to see the Daemon's Prince get re-worked (or, more preferably, have it and the Warriors one reach a compromise).

As for the fluff, why wouldn't a Grey Seer summon one to lead an army? He's cruel and treacherous, you say? That doesn't stop the Warlords from leading their soldiers.

Also, a Verminlord cannot be Skitterleap'd. That would swing the balance from them being crap to them being stupid-awesome.

 
   
Made in us
Killer Klaivex




Oceanside, CA

Warpsolution wrote:
I don't think Vermin Lords should be right up there with Greater Daemons; they should be a little worse (like most Skaven characters).
But in 8th edition, monsters already struggle with survivability so much. I'd like to see the VL get a little boost or a little point drop to reflect that.
If the difference between T5 and T6 really is that negligible, why not just give it to him?
No one takes this guy, which is a shame. Which is the case with any unit in any book. I'd like to see the Daemon's Prince get re-worked (or, more preferably, have it and the Warriors one reach a compromise).

As for the fluff, why wouldn't a Grey Seer summon one to lead an army? He's cruel and treacherous, you say? That doesn't stop the Warlords from leading their soldiers.

Also, a Verminlord cannot be Skitterleap'd. That would swing the balance from them being crap to them being stupid-awesome.


Chaos daemon prince is fine. He lets you run a level 4 wizard for under 400 points. That lands him about 100 points cheaper than the other lord choices.
If I were playing 2000 points, I think I'd always go prince.
If I wanted a caster rather than hybrid caster/combat, I'd go prince.

Yes, the warriors of chaos one is stupidly better, unbreakable with better gifts and better magic item choices. On the other hand, the advantage of the daemon prince is economical casting where you don't have another option.

-Matt

 thedarkavenger wrote:

So. I got a game with this list in. First game in at least 3-4 months.
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Warpsolution wrote:
If the difference between T5 and T6 really is that negligible, why not just give it to him?

Because that's not all that is in question. Every time you roll the winds of magic, you have a chance of something good (or bad) happening to your GD. You have a chance of something good (or bad) happening on unstable. He has more options than the VL, but only slightly. He has to be the general (which can be better or worse considering he's a stand-alone monster). I just think it kind of cheapens DoC to have the exact same unit available that they must take. An interesting aside, if DoC could get Grey Seers, you'd never see GD's again.

   
Made in gb
Towering Hierophant Bio-Titan





Fareham

Still think skaven need a mounted unit
Stormvermin on wolfrats seems to fit nicely and work well.

   
Made in us
Superior Stormvermin






Allen Texas

I would LOVE some Skaven cavalry or just bring wolfrats in from forgeworld into the main army book.

Silacier & Rozgarth: Hey you should start playing warmahords with us.
Me: OK (sets down Tyranid, drives to store and picks up Legion of Everblight)
Me: the more things change....
 
   
Made in us
Evasive Eshin Assassin





@Matt: yeah, I don't think the Daemon's Prince is a bad choice, but the Warriors version ought to be similar, if not identical.
I mean, the difference between Unstable and Unbreakable is...significant.

@Duke: Winds and Instability do something good or bad...and?
If those rule-systems were perfect examples of game design, the good and the bad would balance out. So statistically, it'd be like having neither.
And how does a Greater Daemon have "only slightly" more options than a Vermin Lord? The Vermin Lord has none. At all. He's paying a lot for his 4 wizard levels and his Multiple Wounds, whether you want him to or not, and that's all he'll ever do.
I don't think Vermin Lords should be the same as Daemon's Lord choices, but they should be comparable. Lower Weapon Skill, lower Attacks, lower Leadership, fewer/inferior options--I'm okay with all of that.
But he's so fragile for what you're paying.

And as for infantry-sized lvl3+ Wizards, yeah, you have a point. But I mostly blame cannons.

@Jackal & sandant: I don't think Skaven should have cavalry. It's one of the major flaws/distinguishing aspects of the army.
Wolf Rats look cool, but their rules are...meh.

 
   
Made in us
Superior Stormvermin






Allen Texas

Well some kite/jetpack Eshin/Skyre, units would fill the same fast moving role after all when I thought cavalry, I was thinking more along the lines of outriders not heavy, armored, smash-in-your-face, cavalry. I should have articulated myself better.

Silacier & Rozgarth: Hey you should start playing warmahords with us.
Me: OK (sets down Tyranid, drives to store and picks up Legion of Everblight)
Me: the more things change....
 
   
 
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