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Made in de
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Hey guys,

the first ideas about the new HE army book came in after a first batch of games played and those two issues came up the most right now, thus we're looking at how to tackle them in our local comp meta. If you want to debate the usefulness of restrictions, go in another thread, this is what kind of restrictions might work out. No discussion on e.g. Teclis either as we aren't interested in SC, they are all banned anyway.

BotWD is considered too powerful at the moment by everyone who yet reported in. Not only is it extremely unfair to all DoC players, it also comes at a very low price, can be taken on a normal standard bearer and also helps vs. pretty much every character model out there. We have a few ideas now, including raising the points cost to about 100 points, thus making it considerably more expensive and unable to be taken with a regular BSB, and making it grant Magic Resistance (5), thus only helping vs. spells. A third one is creating a "limited " group of items e.g. you may pick max. 2 out of X, Y, Z.

The first solution would be difficult given that you'd have to see where the points cost is fair, or rather *how* you get that specific number right plus you wouldn't solve the DoC issue while on the other hand, it would makes taking the banner out a lot easier.

The second solution considerably weakens the banner but would still make it very cheap compared to the other MR banners the game has right now. It would solve the most unfair issue with it, mainly it being too versatile, but would be a very harsh change.

The third one needs enough other equally strong options to be in the same category and would thus require more in-depth evaluation, but wouldn't solve the balance issues with the banner itself.

The second issue is the High Magic Lore Attribute, granting a stacking ward save to a unit which is considered too strong as well by 90% of the incoming reports - and I, personally tend to agree. First solutions include limiting the max. ward save to 4++ or limiting the improved ward save until the beginning of the caster's next magic phase.

At this point, we're still collecting data and reports, but those two have been the biggest issues that yet came up and thus, I'd be interested in more perspectives on the matter or ideas how to balance these things out.

Thanks for any input!

   
Made in gb
Sinister Shapeshifter




The Lair of Vengeance....Poole.

Just to point out, the High magic attribute is limited to a maximum ward of 3+.

And the fact about the banner is, it is still one unit in the entire army. So just chaff it up and get the rest of the army. There are ways around it. Like lore of metal. Or life. Or shadow(I mean mindrazor, and miasma.) Magic is not the only way to deal with High Elves.

Malifaux masters owned: Guild(Sans McCabe), Outcasts(Sans Misaki), Arcanists(Sans Marcus)

Check my blog that I just started: http://unionfaux.blogspot.co.uk/ 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Limited to a 3+ ward is like saying "only HKB." Or "only having 9 wounds." The only better save is the banner or specific saves against flaming/poison limited to individuals.

DoC can't "chaff it up and get the rest of the army." That's simply nonsense. As for metal, DoC has 1/2 (TZ vs Metal) of 1/4 (TZ instead of other gods) of its spellcasters even having the option of having metal, let alone final transmutation (6/spell level). Therefore, that is not a "counter." Counters are stuff you can use, not pray against hope of happening. Mindrazor isn't a counter. It does absolutely nothing against the banner, which again makes me think you not only don't understand HE or the Banner or Doc. If something has 10 strength it's irrelevant if the enemy has a 2+ ward. It's the ward that matters, not the strength of the attack. No one is complaining that HE have too much T or DoC have too little S. It's that at a minimum 5/6th of the time no matter what attacks, it will be blocked (not even including WS and T rolls). That's a look out sir without anyone else having to take the hit.

   
Made in gb
Sinister Shapeshifter




The Lair of Vengeance....Poole.

DukeRustfield wrote:
Limited to a 3+ ward is like saying "only HKB." Or "only having 9 wounds." The only better save is the banner or specific saves against flaming/poison limited to individuals.

DoC can't "chaff it up and get the rest of the army." That's simply nonsense. As for metal, DoC has 1/2 (TZ vs Metal) of 1/4 (TZ instead of other gods) of its spellcasters even having the option of having metal, let alone final transmutation (6/spell level). Therefore, that is not a "counter." Counters are stuff you can use, not pray against hope of happening. Mindrazor isn't a counter. It does absolutely nothing against the banner, which again makes me think you not only don't understand HE or the Banner or Doc. If something has 10 strength it's irrelevant if the enemy has a 2+ ward. It's the ward that matters, not the strength of the attack. No one is complaining that HE have too much T or DoC have too little S. It's that at a minimum 5/6th of the time no matter what attacks, it will be blocked (not even including WS and T rolls). That's a look out sir without anyone else having to take the hit.


I never specified what army I was using as an example. And mindrazor doesn't give the bearer magical attacks. Enchanted blades does, as it specifically states that. As for the 3+ ward, he said it needs to be limited. It is limited. I never said I thought the limit was sensible. And OP said that the banner is unfair to DoC, but it should be nerfed. I went on to state that it is limited and there are ways around it. I never said DoC could beat it easily.

Malifaux masters owned: Guild(Sans McCabe), Outcasts(Sans Misaki), Arcanists(Sans Marcus)

Check my blog that I just started: http://unionfaux.blogspot.co.uk/ 
   
Made in de
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Thanks for your input guys, but please do not let this turn into another "It's not OP because..." thread, we already got 3 (iirc) of those. We only got the first wave of replies / reports coming in and those two issues stand out the most and will definitely be debated in our rules council and I am certain that they will be modified in any way.

This thread's purpose therefore is to gather ideas on those issues could be tackled on a rules basis, not by "tactics" on the batlefield. I am aware that it's a very heated discussion for some parts but that's why I am rooting for ideas on the internet

Thanks for your understanding and your general interest in the matter!

   
Made in se
Ferocious Black Templar Castellan






Sweden

 Sigvatr wrote:


The second issue is the High Magic Lore Attribute, granting a stacking ward save to a unit which is considered too strong as well by 90% of the incoming reports - and I, personally tend to agree. First solutions include limiting the max. ward save to 4++ or limiting the improved ward save until the beginning of the caster's next magic phase.


This is going to sound very harsh, but if you're going to start meddling with stuff you consider "too strong", at least make sure you know how it works. It is already limited to the beginning of the Caster's next magic phase.

For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. 
   
Made in de
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Thanks for your replay!

I haven't checked / proofread the reports yet, I just received them and stated some suggestions. Thanks for the heads-up, I'll double-check this one then.

/e: Double-checked, you're correct, I'll reply back asap. Thanks again for the heads-up.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/05/19 13:17:18


   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 thedarkavenger wrote:
I never specified what army I was using as an example. And mindrazor doesn't give the bearer magical attacks.

Mindrazor isn't a counter is the point you're missing. If you need a counter to fight Banner, it's because you have magic attacks. Otherwise you don't need one. They are going to stuff T3 units in there. If you have S5 attacks it is exactly the same as S10. The fact the banner is there makes no difference at all unless you are a hero with a magic weapon, and then you're back to mindrazor not helping cuz it does nothing to the ward save.

   
Made in gb
Sinister Shapeshifter




The Lair of Vengeance....Poole.

DukeRustfield wrote:
 thedarkavenger wrote:
I never specified what army I was using as an example. And mindrazor doesn't give the bearer magical attacks.

Mindrazor isn't a counter is the point you're missing. If you need a counter to fight Banner, it's because you have magic attacks. Otherwise you don't need one. They are going to stuff T3 units in there. If you have S5 attacks it is exactly the same as S10. The fact the banner is there makes no difference at all unless you are a hero with a magic weapon, and then you're back to mindrazor not helping cuz it does nothing to the ward save.


I wasn't using mindrazor as a counter, rather as an example. I was stating that there are ways to deal with the banner, and anyone who cries that it is overpowered needs to take a look at the list. It is one unit that has a massive ward vs magic. The rest of the army is stiill T3 elves with minimal armour, unless it is cavalry. At which point all you need is high strength attacks or killing blow.

Malifaux masters owned: Guild(Sans McCabe), Outcasts(Sans Misaki), Arcanists(Sans Marcus)

Check my blog that I just started: http://unionfaux.blogspot.co.uk/ 
   
Made in gb
Agile Revenant Titan




In the Casualty section of a Blood Bowl dugout

 thedarkavenger wrote:
DukeRustfield wrote:
 thedarkavenger wrote:
I never specified what army I was using as an example. And mindrazor doesn't give the bearer magical attacks.

Mindrazor isn't a counter is the point you're missing. If you need a counter to fight Banner, it's because you have magic attacks. Otherwise you don't need one. They are going to stuff T3 units in there. If you have S5 attacks it is exactly the same as S10. The fact the banner is there makes no difference at all unless you are a hero with a magic weapon, and then you're back to mindrazor not helping cuz it does nothing to the ward save.


I wasn't using mindrazor as a counter, rather as an example. I was stating that there are ways to deal with the banner, and anyone who cries that it is overpowered needs to take a look at the list. It is one unit that has a massive ward vs magic. The rest of the army is stiill T3 elves with minimal armour, unless it is cavalry. At which point all you need is high strength attacks or killing blow.

I agree. There are many ways around the banner, which includes ways to kill the unit it's in and ways to just eliminate the rest of the army and then just play cautious from then on and not give up points. Personally, I really don't think it's that bad at all. To make people happy though, the best solution would be to raise the cost to 80 points, hence meaning it can only be taken by a BSB. This basically means the banner is no problem at all since you can direct RnF attacks at the BSB and, at best, said BSB is going to be T3 with 2 Wounds and a 4+/6++ save (unless he's mounted I suppose).

Of course, it's a completely different kettle of fish as far as Daemons are concerned. If it's possible, just ban the use of the Banner against Daemons, or say that the 2+ Ward cannot be taken against close combat attacks.

As for High Magic, the Lore Attribute is very good, but that comes at the price of having to take High Magic, which is, I've found, a pretty lacklustre lore. For starters, most of the spells are not hex or augment, meaning they can't be cast out of combat, and its in combat where you want that Ward Save unit to be. Drain Magic and Walk Between Worlds are good spells, and so is Fiery Convocation if you're scared of your opponent's magic, but other than that, I've been disappointed by it. Life or Shadow synergises much better with the HE army and is much more deadly overall.

DT:90S+++G++MB++IPwhfb06#+++D+A+++/eWD309R+T(T)DM+

9th Age Fantasy Rules

 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 thedarkavenger wrote:
I wasn't using mindrazor as a counter, rather as an example. I was stating that there are ways to deal with the banner

It's not an example. It's not a counter. It's not a way to "deal with the banner." Mindrazor has nothing to do with the banner. They have no effect on each other whatsoever. It is a non sequitur. It's like saying how do you deal with cannons and saying use an ASF buff on melee troops. That won't stop a cannon or anything that needs a counter to a cannon and generally won't help anyone that can deal with the crew of a cannon, so it's a useless comment.

   
Made in gb
[DCM]
Coastal Bliss in the Shadow of Sizewell





Suffolk, where the Aliens roam.

Closed at OP's request.

"That's not an Ork, its a girl.." - Last words of High General Daran Ul'tharem, battle of Ursha VII.

Two White Horses (Ipswich Town and Denver Broncos Supporter)
 
   
 
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