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Hi all,

One of the regular complaints about the book is our signature Lore, especially relative to the Vampires. Considering it is such a core part of the army this seems a real shame. For my part, I have come up with a first draft of spells I'd like to see. It also refers back to the 6th Edition style in that it can be played extremely low-key and churn out buckets of 'safe' spells, or can be juiced up at risk.


(New Special Rule given to all Liche Priests and High Liche Priests, regardless of Lore chosen)
Incantations- Nehekharan Undead Wizards may Incant their spells instead of casting normally. This decision must be made when casting their first spell of the turn and if chosen, all their spells this turn must be Incanted.
When Incanting, a Wizard ignores the effects of Total Power, Miscasts and Not Enough Power. A Wizard using Incantations is restricted to using a maximum of 2 Power Dice per spell and cannot attempt to Incant the Boosted version of a spell.


The Lore of Nehekhara

Lore Attribute- The Restless Dead. Any friendly unit targeted by an Augment from this Lore is replenished by D3+1 Wounds. These Wounds must first be restored to any Tomb King(s) within the unit, then lesser Characters and Champions, and finally the rank and file.
Units of Animated Constructs are limited to a single Wound restored per casting.
Animated Constructs that are also Large Targets, can only recover a single Wound per turn.
Even if a unit receives no direct benefit from the effects of an Augment spell, they may still restore Wounds from the Attribute.

The Lore contains 2 Signature Spells. Any Wizard may replace any rolled spell with either of the Signature Spells.
0) Khsar's Incantation of the Desert Wind- Augment, 6+. All friendly units within 12" may immediately move as though it were the Remaining Moves phase. Alternatively the Wizard may cast a Boosted version for 12+ which affects all friendly units within 24".
0) Geheb's Incantation of the Loyal Soldier- Augment, 7+. A single friendly unit within 12" gains both +1WS and +1 I, and gains the ability to make Stand & Shoot reactions. Alternatively the Wizard may cast a Boosted version for 14+ which affects all friendly units within 24".

1) Djaf's Incantation of Cursed Blades- Augment, 7+. A single friendly unit within 12" gains Killing Blow and Magic Attacks to all close combat attacks. If the unit already had Killing Blow, it will now take effect on a 5+ to Wound. Alternatively the Wizard may cast a Boosted version for 14+ which affects all friendly units within 12".
2) Phaktch's Incantation of Radiant Arrows- Augment, 7+. A single friendly unit within 12" gains Armour Piercing and Flaming to all ranged attacks. In addition they receive +1BS. Alternatively the Wizard may cast a Boosted version for 14+ which affects all friendly units within 12".
3) Neru's Incantation of Heavenly Protection- Augment, 8+. A single friendly unit within 12" gains a 5+ Ward save. Alternatively the Wizard may cast a Boosted version for 16+ which affects all friendly units within 12".
4) Ptra's Incantation of Righteous Smiting- Augment, 9+. A single friendly unit within 12" gains +1A and any Bows or Great Bows gain Multiple Shots (2). Alternatively the Wizard may cast a Boosted version for 18+ which affects all friendly units within 12".
5) Usirian's Incantation of Vengeance- Hex, 9+. A single enemy unit within 18" must take Dangerous Terrain checks every time they attempt to move. Alternatively the Wizard may cast a Boosted version for 12+ which also reduces the target's Movement rate by D3,to a minimum of 1.
6) Usekhp's Incantation of Dessication- Hex, 9+. A single enemy unit suffers both -1S and T. Alternatively the Wizard may cast a Boosted version for 16+ which makes the target Unstable and removes the abilities to March or make any Charge Reactions besides Hold.


The double-Signature seems to be a recurring theme now and has been present for High Elves, Lizards and Dark Elves. The whole Lore is structured around the Incantation mechanic, offering lots of relatively weaker Augments but with the ability to chain multiple together for a fantastic final package. It is also an absolutely supportive Lore, offering no real ability to inflict damage without being used in conjunction with other units.

Incanting isn't going to happen. The BRB is going to change how spells work periodically and if you have something completely different at the army book level, it will get out of synch. It's also super cheesy. You're taking the only weaknesses that magic has and throwing them all out.

+1 BS isn't going to happen for guys with no shooting penalty. They are already some of the best shooters in the game because of their special rule. I don't think a lot of people appreciate that. Adding AP and flaming is lol.

You're not going to give KB in an AE. TK are a fodder army. Cursed Blades is a really amazing spell right now that casts on a mere 7+.

The other buffs are pretty OP too. TK magic is fine. The vortex maybe isn't. But TK aren't Vampires. You basically took every spell and made it better. Which is a gigantic set of changes.

TK could probably be "fixed" by really minor stuff. Like if your designated heirophant was gifted with a free +2 Wounds and your General was gifted with an extra +1WS and +1W the army would be a lot better. I mean that's from the hip. But the point is, I don't think they are tragically weak. They have the most access to PD of any new army. So if you start handing out loling spells, they're going to be able to turn their fodder horde army into super elites.

As I mentioned in the same thread on the TK boards, I think that the biggest weakness to TK magic and raising abilities is that Nehek simply doesn't have enough buffs that can target enough units. Unless you're bubble casting (which you rarely are), we only have 3 spells that can affect units in combat (Smiting, Cursed Blades, Protection), and you likely won't roll all 3 of them with just a level 4. That means you're getting, at most, 3d3+3 infantry back per turn on your big blocks, or 9 models. I.e. a single casting of Invocation from a level 4 Necromancer.


Thus I think what the TK magic needs is a) a second signature spell like all the other magic-heavy armies, and b) some additional buffs. I would say:

0) combine Desert Winds and Vengeance. Allow desert winds to affect units in combat with just the lore attribute.

0) I *really* like the Djedra's Incantation of the Eternal Dead from Storm of Magic, and think that something like it should be part of our lore. Essentially a "throne of vines" for Nehekhara that makes the rest of our lore more helpful.

If I was wishlisting, I'd say that it should a) increase the effectiveness of the Restless Dead attribute (d3+1 becomes D6+2 for infantry models, and constructs can be healed 1 wound per casting), and b) increase the range of Nehek spells for casters within 12".

1) I would love to see a boosted version of Cursed Blades that casts on an 18-24 and gives HKB. That's super wishlisty, though.

2) I'd like to see the range on Protection increased to 18-24", but it's alright as is. 18+ for the boosted version is kind of expensive, though.

3) Smiting needs an intermediate version that targets a single unit within 24" on a 13.

4) Vengeance is part of the signature now, and I'd love to see it become another buff. Perhaps +1WS/-1WS to a unit within 12" (that stacks with MWBD), with a bubble that affects all units within 12".

5) Desiccation is fine, though the boosted version is garbage. An 18-to-cast spell that has a 33% chance of being no better than the regular version? Yeah...no thanks.

Also 11+ to cast when Soulblight is only 9+ is crap.

6) I hate skullstorm. Every lore doesn't need a vortex spell. I'd take another buff spell any day, or another hex.

Either this spell needs to bypass armour, do multiple wounds d3, or allow wounds-caused to raise models/generate spell dice.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DukeRustfield wrote:
Incanting isn't going to happen. The BRB is going to change how spells work periodically and if you have something completely different at the army book level, it will get out of synch. It's also super cheesy. You're taking the only weaknesses that magic has and throwing them all out.

+1 BS isn't going to happen for guys with no shooting penalty. They are already some of the best shooters in the game because of their special rule. I don't think a lot of people appreciate that. Adding AP and flaming is lol.

You're not going to give KB in an AE. TK are a fodder army. Cursed Blades is a really amazing spell right now that casts on a mere 7+.

The other buffs are pretty OP too. TK magic is fine. The vortex maybe isn't. But TK aren't Vampires. You basically took every spell and made it better. Which is a gigantic set of changes.

TK could probably be "fixed" by really minor stuff. Like if your designated heirophant was gifted with a free +2 Wounds and your General was gifted with an extra +1WS and +1W the army would be a lot better. I mean that's from the hip. But the point is, I don't think they are tragically weak. They have the most access to PD of any new army. So if you start handing out loling spells, they're going to be able to turn their fodder horde army into super elites.

The problem with TK isn't that they're "tragically weak," just that the army is fairly helpless against certain threats that other armies can bring.

For instance, we have a lot of difficulties taking on armour on anything that can't be killing-blowed. The options we do have (stalkers, ushabti with great weapons, colossi with great weapons) are rather flawed. Ushabti are simply too expensive and fragile to be effective, since they can only regain a single wound a turn. Stalkers are very unreliable, since most of the scarier armoured targets have such high initiative and they are LITERALLY more likely to wound themselves than such targets. And colossi are just sorta lacklustre.

Because of Unstable we're also forced to run large units, which compounds the fact that we're already the slowest army in the game.

It's just stuff like that: a lot of little things, that make this army really frustrating to play. A few stat and rules tweaks and I think this army could be brought up to snuff very easily, but unfortunately that's just not the way GW rolls. <sigh> Until 2019, then.

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath wrote:
I.e. a single casting of Invocation from a level 4 Necromancer.

What they cast is irrelevant. You know how many core shooters or any shooters they have? Zippo. Same with war machines. You can't look at one spell in a vacuum. You can't even look at one unit to another army.

As for no anti-armor, you got TG+Halberd which is 13pts for S5 KB and a pretty good deal. Tomb Scorps, Knights. I think Ushabti are fairly spot on. They are Ironguts almost exactly. +1WS, which is a general Ogre weakness, -1M and if you go AHW instead of GW they're I3 to swing. 6S is a bit overkill. As for them being too fragile, they have heavy armor, T4 W3 and have greater immunity to save or die spells than most--they are as "fragile" as ogres. They are 16% more expensive than Ironguts, which is nothing to sneeze at. But can swap in for free bows, AHW or GW and they're undead. The biggest problem is the models themselves are expensive from GW. Anyway, that is no more or less anti armor than most armies as I see it. S5 is troll strength and negates HA+shield. You do have to break out into your Specials for S5-S6, but that's the same with many armies and certainly horde armies.

Ushabti are 50 points each to Ironguts' 43, don't do impact hits on the charge, aren't core, can't take a magic banner, can't march, and are -1M to boot. Ironguts also have character support, and a magic banner that makes them immune to any spells that require a target. Oh, and they're not unstable, either.

Really, though, it's the core thing that's important. Ironguts aren't great because of their statline. They're great because of their statline is for a CORE unit. A core unit that can be supported by all the brilliant choices they have in special and rare.

So because of their slow speed it's a lot tougher to get the proper matchups, and a lot easier for your opponent to whittle your unit before it hits combat. Then, once it does, there's a decent chance it will be whittled further before it even gets to attack.

Compound this with the fact that you can't be supported by skeletons since they bleed combat res and will cripple the unit with crumble and you have some serious problems.

If the Ushabti could take a 50 point magic banner things would be different. We'd give them the Banner of the Undying Legion and they'd suddenly be a whole heck of a lot more survivable. But they didn't give us that, so we can't. And Ushabti remain a slightly more subpar choice than tomb guard, who synergize better with our lore and generate more SCR.

Incanting is stupidly good.
With no not enough power and a Heirotitan, you can take a few level 2's and just 1 die spam.
2 + D3 + D6 will successfully cast several spells.

I know the tomb king vortex isn't that popular, but it does have 1 huge advantage. As for the BRB FAQ, you can't choose to move through a vortex. For a 15+, you can stop a charge. When used in this method, it may be the single best spell you have.

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath wrote:
Ushabti are 50 points each to Ironguts' 43, don't do impact hits on the charge, aren't core, can't take a magic banner, can't march, and are -1M to boot. Ironguts also have character support, and a magic banner that makes them immune to any spells that require a target. Oh, and they're not unstable, either.

They're great because of their statline is for a CORE unit.

If the Ushabti could take a 50 point magic banner things would be different.

You can put 50% of your points in special, you know. There are pros and cons in having a handful of models for an army. TK are generally a horde army. Whether Ush are Special or Core doesn't really matter, you're not going to have just Ush and no skeletons. That "limitation" isn't of any significance. And you're picking and choosing vs. Ironguts. They also have +1Ws, get free weapon choices, are UNBREAKABLE and can move again on an 8+ cast.

Magic BSB. Add it to the group. There, you got your banner. He won't get a LoS but he can still have it. Runemaw is also >50 so it has to be the BSB and the same situation. Though he gets a LoS being the same unit type. But it ain't the huge difference you're making it out to be.

Incanting is too good, as previously said.
Also, having every Augment boost to a bubble is too good. I'm guessing you did that to get more use out of the Attribute? I'd just make the Attribute better, or add a spell that functions somewhat like Invocation.

And one spell with +1BS and another with Multiple Shots (2) is pretty clearly too good. Especially in this army.

If you put a BSB into a unit of Ushabti, he won't live to see combat. He especially won't live past the first round of combat. Being a W2 T4 WS3 model will do that to you, especially with no LoS. Sorry, but Ushabti are weak, and every attempt to justify their inclusion is unable to get around the fact that they die fast, can't be healed, and are too slow either to get into combat or do well once there. And in a book that lacks answers to armour this isn't a minor issue. I've been totally smashed before now simply because I had no answer to 1+ armour saves.

And anyone who claims that TK have the best shooting has clearly not examined the stats for other archer units. Point-for-wounds caused, TK archers are among the worst in the game - until and unless they have Smiting cast on them. This undeniably makes them pretty good - but the opponent has dispel dice.

As for the topic, I like the idea of preventing miscasts and IF (I really hate miscasting), but I'd agree that it is unlikely due to the fact that it becomes vulnerable to BRB changes. The biggest change that the Lore needs is probably just to have the casting values and ranges changed. I do like some of your thoughts, but agree that perhaps it is too far. I would suggest that instead of bubbling, that there is more long range spells - Nehek is noteworthy for being painfully short ranged, which causes all sorts of problems especially when combined with the slow movement.

You haven't proven they are weak other than to assert it. They are Ironguts. Ironguts aren't weak. Ironguts are even harder to heal. You can also have a necrotect nearby to give them a 6+ regen. If you really want to get wacky you can put in Ramhotep for 110 pts and give your unit Hatred, Frenzy and 6+ regen and reroll failed armor saves, that's better than any banner by a long shot.

Your tomb herald (BSB) is Ws4 T4 Ws2 and you can give him him a shield and horse to put his armor at 4+ and 6+ parry.

No one is better at TK at long range shooting. There's armies that are better at short range and elite. They can move and fire multi-shots at 24" at units in hard cover and still need 5+ to hit. No other army can come close to that and they can do it with a horde of 6pt models.

Well I don't know much about Ironguts, so I can't answer that particular point. However, having used and, you know, read the rules for Ushabti they just are not a good unit. I didn't want to get into arcane details, because that isn't really the point of the thread. But: any character put into the unit will die before combat, unless the opponent has no access to templates. Then they will definitely die in combat, because the Tomb Herald is fragile and has no access to armour. 4+/6++ [I didn't think that you could use Parry on a horse?] on a T4 W2 model won't last long - approximately two Chaos Warriors will shred that. The Chaos Warriors who go before the Ushabti. The Necrotect has no purpose being in this unit (ironically), because he will die like a champ, and he doesn't benefit this unit as much as Tomb Guard.

Ushabti themselves are remarkably bad. They cannot march, meaning that you crawl around the place. Thanks to the character issues, you'll pretty much never want to place them in the unit - you can't even hide them in a second rank - and so they have no access to Hatred, Frenzy or WS5/6 unlike the Tomb Guard. They cost 50pts a model, which breaks down as 17pts per wound, at T4 with a 5+; Tomb Guard clock in at 11pts a wound with T4 with a 5+/6++. Being constructs, they cannot be healed to any meaningful degree, unlike the normal infantry blocks (and unlike any unit in a book with access to lore of Life). What precisely about this unit sounds good? They provide a slow, expensive, difficult to heal, difficult to support thanks to the character issues and Crumble rules, not very high WS source of S6 attacks, on a platform which is neither resilient against monsters (who will probably go first and wound them easily), knights (who will go first, wound them easily, and probably move fast enough to avoid them in the first place) nor against horde units (who will definitely go first and wound them easily). There is a reason that you don't see them taken by most TK players that post battle reports.

To be honest, Tomb Guard are not that hot these days either, but at least they synergize with the rest of the book. Knights, meanwhile, provide speed, 3+ AS and more attacks, meaning that they can actually perform a useful task.

Oh, and you have raised the common misconception concerning TK shooting. Here are the stats (which don't reflect the new Lizardmen and Dark Elf books, it should be noted) for Warhammer shooting. Here is the source; a thread on another forum discussing a survey carried out among players on the race-specific forums. The stats were crunched in response to confusion among non-TK players about why we rated our archers so poorly.

Against a T3 5+ model. WPP = wounds per point. Obviously the higher strength / AP weapons will scale better on tougher opponents.

.048 wpp - Goblin Archer, no penalty, 18"
.037 wpp - Skeleton Archer, any range / movement, double tap 24"
.037 wpp - Empire Handgunner, no penalty, move or fire, 24"
.033 wpp - Sisters of Avelorn, no penalty, 24"
.032 wpp - Goblin Archer, -1 penalty, 18"
.030 wpp - Empire Crossbow, no penalty, move or fire, 30"
.026 wpp - Sisters of Avelorn, -1 penalty, 24"
.025 wpp - Empire Handgunner, -1 penalty, move or fire, 24"
.024 wpp - Empire Archer, no penalty, 24"
.024 wpp - Thunderer, -1 penalty, move or fire, 24"
.022 wpp - HE Archer, no penalty, 30"
.021 wpp - Empire Crossbow, -1 penalty, move or fire, 30"
.018 wpp - Skeleton Archer, any range / movement, 24"
.017 wpp - HE Archer, -1 penalty, 30"
.016 wpp - Empire Archer, -1 penalty, 24"

Assuming T4 3+ short range

.019 wpp - Empire Handgunner
.016 wpp - Goblin Archer
.015 wpp - Sisters of Avelorn, no penalty, 24"
.014 wpp - Empire Crossbow
.012 wpp - Skeleton Archer
.012 wpp - Thunderer
.008 wpp - Empire Archer
.007 wpp - HE Archer
.006 wpp - Skeleton Archer

So as you can see, Skeleton archers are definitely not the hotness. Sure, they do ok when shooting at a single model, standing in the dark, underneath a shrub. But you don't shoot at those models terribly often, and certainly you don't win games by doing so. Note that they are mostly good against unarmoured T3 models. Our whole book is good against unarmoured T3 models. Everything in Warhammer is good against T3 unarmoured models.

This isn't correct. I'm not going to go through them all, but the very first one is wrong. They merely added as text the benefits. They tried to cherry-pick conditions. As if the majority of things you're going to shoot at are in heavy armor. If they simply swapped 5+ armor save and said you had to move or the target was in light cover, TK would absolutely dominate. Yes, you can make situations where TK look to be worse. But they aren't the norm and it's just as easy, and cheesy, to make fictional situations where it is impossible that any other shooter is better than TK. If an enemy is in hard cover, you need to move to stay with your army, you've got an iceshard blizzard cast on you, you're shooting multiple shots, at max range. That's -6 to BS. Even units with BS 4 that is literally an impossible shot to make. For TK it is exactly what it always is.

It's fine you don't know ironguts. But let me tell you: they're great. And ushabti are ironguts. Ironguts can't be healed. At all. Can't be done. So Ushabti "only" being healed one is not a detriment. It's only a detriment if you compare them to other TK units instead of their counterparts they're going to be fighting.

Saying that anything in a unit without a LoS is going to be insta templated to death is also far-fetched. I don't think it's the best idea to put heroes in there, but they simply aren't that expensive for their buffs. If they last a round you'd do enough with Frenzy/Hatred/Regen/Reroll to make back the points you lost.

Duke, you quite clearly have no idea what you're talking about here.

Ironguts can be used to pay the core tax. Ushabti cannot. Ironguts can march. Ushabti cannot. Ironguts can be protected with a character wall. Ushabti cannot.

Putting infantry characters in with Ushabti is a fething terrible idea. More than the fact that you'll never actually get to use the benefit (since Ushabti are ASL), but you will ALSO reduce the speed of that unit to M4 no marching. That's terrible. The benefit of Ironguts is that they're in your face turn 2. Even at the best of time Ushabti move as fast as an M3 dwarf. Now you're reducing them to the same speed as our skeleton blocks.

As for archers, they're simply mediocre. 33% chance to hit with S3 isn't much to write home about. They're great against elves, but against most other armies those units struggle to make their points back. A unit of 20 is great as a wizard bunker that doubles for clearing chaff, but without that dual utility they're not particularly worthwhile.

Correction: DukeRustfield has plenty of ideas as to what he's talking about. He just has a different opinion and/or range of experience.

I will say this: being unable to march and being Unstable are two HUGE drawbacks to Ushabti.
Ironguts also just function differently in an Ogre book. I mean, Rat Ogres are a pretty good buy, compared to a standard Ogre Bull (+1S, +2I, and Frenzy for +10pts/model), but you don't see people running a Horde of them. Same goes for Ushabti versus Ironguts.

Ironguts aren't used to pay a core tax. They are used to kill stuff. It's quite possible to construct an ogre army with nothing but core and lord/hero and beat a lot of faces. No one is taking the min Ogre core so they can be done with it and move on.

33% chance to hit with S3 isn't much to write home about.

A minimum of 33% at 24 range with multiple shots after moving vs. a unit that has any kind of protection possible in the game. And if you're feeling saucy, add poison. And if you don't want to move, add volley shot. Again, nothing else can do that.

Warpsolution wrote:
Correction: DukeRustfield has plenty of ideas as to what he's talking about. He just has a different opinion and/or range of experience.

I will say this: being unable to march and being Unstable are two HUGE drawbacks to Ushabti.
Ironguts also just function differently in an Ogre book. I mean, Rat Ogres are a pretty good buy, compared to a standard Ogre Bull (+1S, +2I, and Frenzy for +10pts/model), but you don't see people running a Horde of them. Same goes for Ushabti versus Ironguts.

Calling undead unstable is as misleading as calling undead unbreakable.
Both are true, and both are incomplete statements.

 DukeRustfield wrote:
Ironguts aren't used to pay a core tax. They are used to kill stuff. It's quite possible to construct an ogre army with nothing but core and lord/hero and beat a lot of faces. No one is taking the min Ogre core so they can be done with it and move on.

33% chance to hit with S3 isn't much to write home about.

A minimum of 33% at 24 range with multiple shots after moving vs. a unit that has any kind of protection possible in the game. And if you're feeling saucy, add poison. And if you don't want to move, add volley shot. Again, nothing else can do that.

Yeah. Exactly. Because they're fething Ogres. They're buying a killy unit out of core that I have to afford out of the 50% of my army that isn't lords and core. If I could take Ushabti instead of skeleton blocks I'd do it in a second. But I can't, so they're competing with snakes and tomb guard for space in my list. Force Ogre players to take nothing but Gnoblars out of their 25% core and see how many of them are taking Ironguts over maneaters, mournfang, ironblasters, and stonehorns.

That's what you're missing here. Context. Ironguts are great within the context of the Ogres book because you can buy them out of core, and fill the rest of the army with all your other cool toys. Ushabti are a hammer unit that doesn't work well with our anvils (due to crumble), our lore (due to construct), or on their own (due to ASL and poor survivability). Their one niche is as a small unit of 6-8 taken to deal with armour, but halberdguard with the razor standard tend to fare just as well while synergizing better with both Nehek and Light. Not to mention that they go better with characters.

If you want to continue this discussion, though, I suggest you first try to build a competitive TK list that uses Ushabti. Then maybe you'll see what it is we're talking about. Those of us who actually play TK, and have discussed all these issues ad nauseam already.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

33% chance to hit with S3 isn't much to write home about.

A minimum of 33% at 24 range with multiple shots after moving vs. a unit that has any kind of protection possible in the game. And if you're feeling saucy, add poison. And if you don't want to move, add volley shot. Again, nothing else can do that.

Yeah the archers are generally considered ok. I typically take 19 FC bunker, and 2 drops of 10 each. and if some extra points 5 horse archers. I've dropped a GUO before it hit my line, and also had it do nothing.

Ubshati are gak, stalkers kinda too. Maybe if they had heavy armor standard and shield options.

However this is mostly about magic of the TK. To be honest it's only meh.

Lore attribute, needs improved D6+2, 1 to constructs per cast.

Desert wind could do a bit more, giving engaged units +d3 I and lore attribute, cost is fine.

Cursed Blades, solid no changes.

Protection- better range, 18" or 24" would be fine.

Smiting, range is my only complaint.

Desication- match cost for single target to soulblight. Maybe have the boosted also reduce armor save of target.

Vengence- It's great for stopping the large unit to getting to you, but when they are already there it's kinda useless. Maybe a -d3 I hex. and Only -d3 movement meh.

Skullstorm- blegh. I'd rather have a magic missile or something that ignores armor saves. Support wise, I'd love to have access to wyssan's or a S/T boost dessication is great but it doesn't help with poking holes in armor.

 Acardia wrote:
Yeah the archers are generally considered ok. I typically take 19 FC bunker, and 2 drops of 10 each. and if some extra points 5 horse archers. I've dropped a GUO before it hit my line, and also had it do nothing.

Ubshati are gak, stalkers kinda too. Maybe if they had heavy armor standard and shield options.

However this is mostly about magic of the TK. To be honest it's only meh.

Lore attribute, needs improved D6+2, 1 to constructs per cast.

Desert wind could do a bit more, giving engaged units +d3 I and lore attribute, cost is fine.

Cursed Blades, solid no changes.

Protection- better range, 18" or 24" would be fine.

Smiting, range is my only complaint.

Desication- match cost for single target to soulblight. Maybe have the boosted also reduce armor save of target.

Vengence- It's great for stopping the large unit to getting to you, but when they are already there it's kinda useless. Maybe a -d3 I hex. and Only -d3 movement meh.

Skullstorm- blegh. I'd rather have a magic missile or something that ignores armor saves. Support wise, I'd love to have access to wyssan's or a S/T boost dessication is great but it doesn't help with poking holes in armor.

Our lore attribute is never going to be d6 again. The designers make a conscious choice that VC will be more offensive with better raising, while TK will be more defensive with better core and buffing. That's why VC got the march and the blender lord, while we got catapults, caskets, and MWBD.

The issue is that the things that were supposed to be great are all slightly flawed. Like how beastmen Minotaurs are amazing in combat, but can't ever finish anything off since they only pursue d6. Just a little flaw that undermines how things function.

Stalkers not having a musician or skirmish, for instance. Sphinxes only having a 5+ armour save. Ushabti and skeletons being unable to take a magic banner. The useless thundercrush attack on the warsphinx. The even more useless ability to take a sphinx as a character mount (replacing the crew on the sphinx, and wasting MWBD on the royal). Chopping chariots out from underneath characters.

Of all of them, though, it's Ushabti that suffer the worst. They and scorps got nerfed after being an autoinclude in the 6th book. Now they're just gorgeous models that come out in basement games and get left at home for tournaments.

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath wrote:

As for archers, they're simply mediocre. 33% chance to hit with S3 isn't much to write home about. They're great against elves, but against most other armies those units struggle to make their points back. A unit of 20 is great as a wizard bunker that doubles for clearing chaff, but without that dual utility they're not particularly worthwhile.

The describes just about every shooter in the game.
You're going to clear chaff, and maybe strip a rank bonus away before combat.
Shooters generally aren't good bunkers for wizards, other than the fact that the shooters don't want to be in combat either.

Given that all BS based shooting is going to suck, when should you take it, and what should you have it do?

1) Keep characters in units. Massed BS shooting will down the Dark Elf Sorceress flying around on the Peg with the 3+ ward save. The threat of the shooting can give you some board control and discourage your opponent from dancing around too near your lines.
2) Kill enemy chaff: Fast cav, skirmishers and cheap redirecting units. Get them out of the way so your own beat sticks can hit what you want, and your own chaff can do it's job too.
3) Strip a rank bonus. Let's not pretend we're going to be shooting armies dead. The best you can hope for is getting a few kills to take away a point or two of rank bonus, and if you're really lucky, swing the steadfast advantage before combat.
4) Provide a flaming wound to remove regeneration before warmachines fire.

Tomb King Archers do most of this pretty well.
They can't do the flaming hits; but TK warmachines are flaming already, so it isn't needed.
Where tombking shooters do shine is in the number 2 role. Since they ignore the -2 to hit for shooting through units; you can safely park them behind your other units, and still clear chaff; which puts them in a good spot for bunkers.

As for Ubshati, I have seen units of 8 with great bows be pretty decent. 8 shots (or 16) with S6 shots will down some higher value targets; and you still have WS4 Init 3 S4 for combat. It can be an effective generalist unit.

Yeah, I was going to comment on this last night and petered out.

BS shooting has been kicked in the nards, like it or not. This isn't 40K. WHFB is a CC game, then magic, then war machines, then everything else.

And Matt makes a good point in that you can not only shoot through units, you can volley fire. So you don't have to be in horde formation but could be in 5x5 or whatever. You'll miss out on some potential shots, but you at least won't be a giant roadblock for your army.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

The describes just about every shooter in the game.
You're going to clear chaff, and maybe strip a rank bonus away before combat.

Yes. Exactly. TK shooting is decent compared to other BS-based shooting, but that still doesn't make it awesome on its own. A unit of 20 or two is alright, and obviously the Khalida archer star has its uses (or HAD its uses, against MC it's still gakky), but you're rarely going to take more than 2 units of 20.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
Shooters generally aren't good bunkers for wizards, other than the fact that the shooters don't want to be in combat either.

And what else do you really need? You're already putting your wizards in the back ranks, so why not get some utility out of them for a mere 2 extra points.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
As for Ubshati, I have seen units of 8 with great bows be pretty decent. 8 shots (or 16) with S6 shots will down some higher value targets; and you still have WS4 Init 3 S4 for combat. It can be an effective generalist unit.

8 S6 shots is alright, but for the same cost you can get 66 s3 shots that come out of core. The archers outperform the 'shabs against every target save things like demon princes and MC, against which the 'shabs win out by only a very narrow margin.

It's effective enough to consider for fun games, but nowhere near strong enough for competitive play. Now if those bowshabti could bust out a GW in combat I'd be all over them. As it stands...meh. I'd rather have the archers sitting behind my lines bunkering my wizards, and put my special points into something with more combat punch.

Just for the record, 66 Archers are a lot harder to get into range than 6 Ushabti.