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Made in au
Paramount Plague Censer Bearer




Australia

2500 High Elves

Lords

Marakanis Starfury
Archmage (High)
level 4, Talisman of Preservation, Book of Hoeth


Heroes

Azarias Bloodhawk
Noble
BSB, Armour of Caledor, great weapon

Keljhan Soulstorm
Mage (Shadow)
level 2, Dispel Scroll, Golden Crown of Atrazar


Core

9 x Silver Helms
shields
full command

5 x Ellyrion Reavers
bows
musician

5 x Ellyrion Reavers
bows
musician

20 x Spearmen
standard bearer
Banner of the Eternal Flame


Special

28 x White Lions
Full command
Banner of the World Dragon

Lothern Skycutter

Lothern Skycutter

10 x Shadow Warriors OR Sisters of Avalorn
champion


Rare

Repeater Bolt Thrower

Repeater Bolt Thrower

Great Eagle

Great Eagle

Flamespyre Phoenix

TOTAL = 2500

Just when I thought I wanted to jump back into the hobby and play dark elves, my friend has tempted me with high elves!
Looking for your feedback, I haven't played since 5/6th ed.

Q1. What lores are the best for the mages? Currently considering High, Shadow, Beast, Metal.
Q2. Where to place my characters? Currently, archmage and bsb in white lions, mage in sisters.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/12/18 11:32:33


 
   
Made in gb
Agile Revenant Titan




In the Casualty section of a Blood Bowl dugout

Ok, this list is pretty good, though I have a few suggestions to improve it.

Firstly, you need to sort out your Core. A unit of 20 spearmen will do pretty much nothing and 9 Silver Helms is not the best way to go either. Drop the full command on the Silver Helms and, getting an extra one, split them into two units of 5, using them as flanking threats. For a "point and click" unit, you want at least 15. There's no middle ground. Then, convert those Spearmen into the the same points worth of Archers, with a musician only. You'll get more mileage out of them. You may also want to cut into the Reavers (perhaps drop one of the units), to bulk the Archers out a bit more, since you have some good chaff in your Eagles as well.

Now, Skycutters. Personally, I think they're pretty rubbish but some people would strongly disagree. They are a highly mobile unit and flying impact hits are undeniably useful. So, I won't tell you to remove them if they're working for you. I would however very strongly advise you to go with Sisters of Avelorn over Shadow Warriors. Shadow Warriors are pretty bad and suffer terribly from "expensive S3 syndrome".

I would also drop the Flamespyre and exhange it for a Frostheart Phoenix instead. Flamespyres are good when you have a need to deal with horde units, such as in all-cavalry lists and, while you may not be as well equipped to deal with such units as other lists, I don't think you'll struggle, exactly. Frosthearts are just better overall, so I think you'll find one of those more useful.

It's tricky deciding what Lores to suggest for this list (although I know you should not be taking High on your Lvl4, because High Magic is far inferior to rulebook Lores), since your list is half and half in terms of units that benefit from certain Lores. I would say that Shadow would work best on your Level 4, since the White Lions benefit from Melkoth's WS and Initiative hexing and the shooting element of your list appreciates a lot of hexes as well. However, by not taking Life here, you do sacrifice some ability to keep your White Lions alive, which is pretty crucial here. I'd try and address this with your Level 2, either using High Magic for that Ward Save, or Life for guaranteed Regen and the potential of Flesh to Stone (which'd be nice). Beasts and Metal would not fit here.

That would also partly answer your second question. Stick the Lvl2 Mage and the BSB in the White Lions (makes it a nice round 30 as well, which is handy if you're OCD), and put the Level 4 in the Archers as a bunker behind, where he's nice and safe.

Hope this helps!

DT:90S+++G++MB++IPwhfb06#+++D+A+++/eWD309R+T(T)DM+

9th Age Fantasy Rules

 
   
Made in us
Courageous Silver Helm





1. Frost Phoenix >> Flame Phoenix
2. Core setup is a bit odd as discussed. 20 Spearmen aren't going to achieve much
3. Sword Masters tend to go better with High Magic than WLs if the mage is going in that unit.
   
Made in au
Paramount Plague Censer Bearer




Australia

 The Shadow wrote:
Ok, this list is pretty good, though I have a few suggestions to improve it.

Firstly, you need to sort out your Core. A unit of 20 spearmen will do pretty much nothing and 9 Silver Helms is not the best way to go either. Drop the full command on the Silver Helms and, getting an extra one, split them into two units of 5, using them as flanking threats. For a "point and click" unit, you want at least 15. There's no middle ground. Then, convert those Spearmen into the the same points worth of Archers, with a musician only. You'll get more mileage out of them. You may also want to cut into the Reavers (perhaps drop one of the units), to bulk the Archers out a bit more, since you have some good chaff in your Eagles as well.

Now, Skycutters. Personally, I think they're pretty rubbish but some people would strongly disagree. They are a highly mobile unit and flying impact hits are undeniably useful. So, I won't tell you to remove them if they're working for you. I would however very strongly advise you to go with Sisters of Avelorn over Shadow Warriors. Shadow Warriors are pretty bad and suffer terribly from "expensive S3 syndrome".

I would also drop the Flamespyre and exhange it for a Frostheart Phoenix instead. Flamespyres are good when you have a need to deal with horde units, such as in all-cavalry lists and, while you may not be as well equipped to deal with such units as other lists, I don't think you'll struggle, exactly. Frosthearts are just better overall, so I think you'll find one of those more useful.

It's tricky deciding what Lores to suggest for this list (although I know you should not be taking High on your Lvl4, because High Magic is far inferior to rulebook Lores), since your list is half and half in terms of units that benefit from certain Lores. I would say that Shadow would work best on your Level 4, since the White Lions benefit from Melkoth's WS and Initiative hexing and the shooting element of your list appreciates a lot of hexes as well. However, by not taking Life here, you do sacrifice some ability to keep your White Lions alive, which is pretty crucial here. I'd try and address this with your Level 2, either using High Magic for that Ward Save, or Life for guaranteed Regen and the potential of Flesh to Stone (which'd be nice). Beasts and Metal would not fit here.

That would also partly answer your second question. Stick the Lvl2 Mage and the BSB in the White Lions (makes it a nice round 30 as well, which is handy if you're OCD), and put the Level 4 in the Archers as a bunker behind, where he's nice and safe.

Hope this helps!


Hi shadow,

Thanks for taking the time to reply with some good feedback. I appreciate the effort taken.
To reply to your suggestions;

1. Agree with you on core. Either I run 15 silver helms, 5 reavers at 15 archers to hold uo a flank or run 2 groups of 5 reavers/5 silver helms to run the bait and switch game on the flanks - and 19 archers for a bunker.
15 s.helms lets me roll up an opposite flank to my phoenix/great eagles and maximise the use of our prowess racial abilty for fighting in three ranks. The alternative would be the use of reaver/s.helm combo to simply tie up smaller units for the game

2. Skycutters are taken for asthetic reasons, as well as what I feel is greater tactical flexibility with their flying movement creating a large threat range to protect my white lions. I don't think they are worth upgrading though.

3. Agree with you re: sisters, although 24" range is a tad annoying. Their flaming magical attacks will help with etheral/regenerating units. Would it be better to put the lvl 4 with the archers or the sisters?

4. I will keep the flamespyre pheonix for asthetic choices


 
   
Made in gb
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare





I agree with most of what the Shadow says and your run down of what advice you're taking is solid (taking pretty models because they are pretty is never a bad choice!)

Shadow warriors are not bad for war machine hunting in 5s with AHWs is the only use I see for them. So yes Sisters make more sense. Personally I like to run them in 9s as 3 ranks of 3. Tiny footprint to make them difficult to catch and they all get to shoot still

Allarielle seems to be the obvious choice over your Lvl4. If you're going Lionstar you may as well get all the awesome ward save goodness. A noble with Khaine's ring is also great for that combo. Then shield of the merwyrm to give a 4+ Ward, you then don't need a 1+ armour as you'll almost always have a 3+ ward on him.

Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.

Yes my Colour is Black but not for the reasons stated mainly just because it's slimming... http://imperiusdominatus.blogspot.com 
   
Made in gb
Sinister Shapeshifter




The Lair of Vengeance....Poole.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Allarielle seems to be the obvious choice over your Lvl4. If you're going Lionstar you may as well get all the awesome ward save goodness. A noble with Khaine's ring is also great for that combo. Then shield of the merwyrm to give a 4+ Ward, you then don't need a 1+ armour as you'll almost always have a 3+ ward on him.


It's a 4+ parry. Only works in combat.

Malifaux masters owned: Guild(Sans McCabe), Outcasts(Sans Misaki), Arcanists(Sans Marcus)

Check my blog that I just started: http://unionfaux.blogspot.co.uk/ 
   
Made in gb
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare





I know but he'll have a 2+ ward vs magic and a 2+ LoS vs cannonballs. So its only combat that he'd need another ward.

Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.

Yes my Colour is Black but not for the reasons stated mainly just because it's slimming... http://imperiusdominatus.blogspot.com 
   
Made in kr
Regular Dakkanaut




I rather like the 9 Silver Helms (3x3) lance formation. I have used it several times and enjoy what it can do (just don't expect it to steam roll a whole flank without support....)

Agree with what has been said about spearmen, take archers instead. They provide SOMETHING to your list, which is more than the spear bunker.

The lore discussion is interesting, as I hate Life Magic, but High magic seems wasted some of the time with a White Lions unit. Metal COULD make them ridiculous vs shooting as well as giving them +1 to hit in combat, but Heavens can do something similar with added utility. Consider Heavens on your Lvl 4, it is a surprisingly good lore. But High is OK on a lvl 2 in the unit as is shadow (and I guess Life.... )

2 units of 5 shadow warriors is OK for early redirection/ annoyance, but sisters bring more to your list (considering you have 2 eagles and 2 units of Reavers already)

Speaking of chaff! Be really careful what you do with your supporting units... with only 1 unit that can really do anything in combat, you need to make sure the Lions don't get mismatched or swarmed. I say keep both reaver units and both eagles for this purpose (consider 2x5 shadow warriors as well if you enjoy their style )

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/12/22 23:52:30


 
   
Made in au
Paramount Plague Censer Bearer




Australia

Hey guys thank you all for the feedback.

I've been going over the list again, I was thinking about running 2 flamespyres but I can't fit them in with 2 eagles and 2 bolt throwers as well.


the basic principle of the army list was for the silver helms & reavers to run one side and the flamesypre phoenix & great eagles to go the other.

White lions run up the centre with the 2 skycutters sitting behind to provide flanking support/cover (they are fast enough to intercept and hold up a potential threat to the white lions).

The back line was to include the archers and bolt throwers...and I either run the sisters for added punch or shadow warriors for additional disruption. The sisters are stronger in their firepower but completely unshielded...

I wonder if the lvl 2 high mage should be in with them instead to give the shield of saphery ward save to? at the very least shadow warriors will be deployed in cover for some basic protection & stubborn.

any further advice on the above thoughts would be appreciated.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
2500 High Elves

Lords

Kel'jhan Shadesong, Archmage (Shadow)
level 4, Talisman of Preservation, Book of Hoeth


Heroes

Azarias Flameheart, Noble
BSB, Armour of Caledor, great weapon

Marakanis Starfury, Mage (High)
level 2, Dispel Scroll, Golden Crown


Core

15 x Silver Helms
shields
Full command
Gleaming Pennant

5 x Ellyrion Reavers
bows
musician

14 x Archers
musician


Special

28 x White Lions
Full command
Banner of the World Dragon

Lothern Skycutter
Lothern Skycutter

8 x Shadow Warriors OR Sisters of Avalorn
champion with Reaver Bow


Rare

Repeater Bolt Thrower
Repeater Bolt Thrower

Great Eagle
Great Eagle

Flamespyre Phoenix

TOTAL = 2500

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/01/20 07:54:59


 
   
Made in au
Paramount Plague Censer Bearer




Australia

Would this list benefit more from a small unit of sisters or the shadow warriors? Are the two eagles and a unit of reavers enough chaff?


Second question: would running my lvl 4 as Metal for glittering robes/enchanted blades goodness in the WL be worthwhile?
I could run my lvl 2 as a shadow for miasma, and smoke & mirrors my lvl 4 out of the WL before any nasty combat units hit

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/01/22 05:17:53


 
   
Made in gb
Sinister Shapeshifter




The Lair of Vengeance....Poole.

Go heavens on the level 4. Metal is a support lore. As for the level 2, shadow is good. The sisters are probably a better choice, as they can help you against stuff like trolls and chimeras. I'd drop the reaver bow from the champ though. It's a weapon for a character alongside the potion of strength. Three chaff drops is enough for the army to work, I'd prefer 4 though.

Malifaux masters owned: Guild(Sans McCabe), Outcasts(Sans Misaki), Arcanists(Sans Marcus)

Check my blog that I just started: http://unionfaux.blogspot.co.uk/ 
   
Made in au
Paramount Plague Censer Bearer




Australia

So I've spent some time away from this concept (flirting with the prospect of dwarves) but I keep coming back to the 'blitzkrieg' aspect that this list offers.

Here is the rationale for taking each unit, hopefully more seasoned heads out there can tell me if this is wildly off track. I'm not looking for a WAAC approach, but something that is viable whilst filling the 'look and feel' that I'm going for.


Centre of the map I would be placing my Lionstar (ideally with a nice wood in the middle for them to exploit their foreststrider rule). Psychologically it is intended to provoke and dominate in the mind of my opponent that this is a nasty little unit that will need to be dealt with.They have their BotWD which is rightly hated by most, so I am sure they will draw the attention of my opponent. I am unsure if I should field my BSB with them or the silver helms. The level 2 meets the value-for-money test with the bonus to high magic and gives a ward save to the lions.

Flying behind it will be the two Skycutters - their job is intimidation and A2/AD duties. They have the speed to keep up with the lions (I *hate* how chariots aren't allowed to march - stupidest rule in 8th imho) and can either charge something to hold it at bay for a turn to keep the unit off the lion's back, or they can combo-charge anything engaging the lions. Plus they look feffin' sweet!

On one flank I will deploy the Flameheart pheonix and 2 great eagles - the eagles run escort duty for the pheonix whilst it makes its way up field, then divert for either war machine hunting or chaff duties. The pheonix (yes I know people prefer frostheart - again its all about the look and feel for me) has the duty of doing flyby attacks over any large horde of weak units and generally them up. If/when it dies, I am hoping it does so nearby the enemy for some nasty AOE damage - if it rebirths then even better.
My only concern is the relative lack of other targets for artillery to focus on - this is something I would like some feedback on.

The opposite flank will feature the silverhelms + reaver escort. Again, I am not sure if the BSB would be better suited with them, given that the white lions are stubborn. The reavers do their obvious role of keeping any enemy chaff off the backs of the silver helms before they can deliver a charge; either against a smaller unit or to assist the centre with a flank charge.

Backfield will feature 2 bolt throwers, the archer bunker and mage. Bolt throwers target any large monsters/cav and generally keep the flanks clear. Archers also assist in guard duty and lending support fire to keeping chaff off the centre. Running shadow magic for the long range casting was the major incentive to place him here - and if any enemy scouts threaten too much he can always teleport with the level 2.

My final deliberation is running either the sisters or the shadow warriors with the option for scouting - their job would be war machine hunting and harrassment of mage bunkers. Against wood elves or other heavy scouting armies, they can be deployed to counter-scout.

The sisters, as discussed, would be best to advance behind the pheonix+great eagle flank, with move-and-fire options letting them lay some serious support firepower to relieve the centre. Their higher strengh shots and flaming compotnent also allows them to assist in taking out regeneration.

All in all, this is a list designed around a very mobile force which focuses on defeating enemy units in detail by overwhelming single units with multiple charges designed to break the enemy on the first/second round of combat. It also features a secondary focus on support missile fire to whittle down attempts to envelop the centre.

Please let me know what you think of this list in general, and specifically if I should:

1. Take shadow warriors or sisters
2. Running the level 4 on an eagle with death magic.
3. Placing the BSB with either the white lions or silver helms.

 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Nocturne

I notice with alot of lists, that no one uses sea guard? What is the reasoning behind it?

I run with atleast one unit in my army, great for dealing out lots of S3 arrows, and still put a beating on most other core in the game.

I think it combines the best aspect of archer and spearmen in one.

Frostheart all the way.....seriously. Don't leave home without one.

I dislike the skycutter, rather lean closer to unit of phoenix guard with flaming banner for pesky regen models (friend plays nurgle demons).

That's my opinion anyway.

 
   
Made in gb
Sinister Shapeshifter




The Lair of Vengeance....Poole.

 Pelas Mir'san wrote:
I notice with alot of lists, that no one uses sea guard? What is the reasoning behind it?





You can get more spearmen for the same amount of points, and archers can shoot further, So you're paying a premium for a unit that's worse than the other options.

Malifaux masters owned: Guild(Sans McCabe), Outcasts(Sans Misaki), Arcanists(Sans Marcus)

Check my blog that I just started: http://unionfaux.blogspot.co.uk/ 
   
Made in us
Blood Angel Neophyte Undergoing Surgeries



Ann Arbor, MI

I notice with alot of lists, that no one uses sea guard? What is the reasoning behind it?


I also find archers better than spears or sea guard. Light armor and shield doesn't do much against most armies I fight (Ogres, Orcs, Empire Knight lists) so the archers essentially fight just as well in melee and get to shoot 30 inches out for pretty cheap.
   
 
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