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Made in gr
Regular Dakkanaut




Hello Dakka, after reading thoroughly more than 30 army books, as well as as much as I can about the Warhammer world, I feel there's a theme from history/mythology/fantasy that hasn't been covered yet. Werewolves. I play White Wolf's rpgs as much as Warhammer, and I know a lot about them. So, Vampires have their own army, Mages are all over the world, but wolves/werewolves don't exist as a stand alone army.
I have some ideas for some army-wide rules, troop types, a magic lore based on their legends/history, and I also have thoughts on how to make some werewolves' elements actual warhammer rules, like their transformations, their warcries, their hierarchy, the phases of the moon etc
I don't expect to finish my plan in a week or so, not to be competitive/interesting army right away.
So, should I try tocreate something like that for me and my friends?
Also, if you have any general advice on what I'm thinking, I would appreciate.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/03/12 01:13:18


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Well...it's just me but I think where WHFB and 40K shine is leaving the normal tropes of fantasy and scifi. Tropes meaning, stuff that has been done to death.

Space Marines are probably the most popular and intriguing part of 40K in part because they're good/bad guys not really represented in most scifi books.

TK, Lizardmen, WoC, DE, etc are all pretty different from normal fantasy.

Bretonnia and Dwarfs and VC are about as "normal" fantasy as the game gets. With some sprinkling of elves.

For WW to be in the game, they would be smack in the Old World almost certainly. And it's awful crowded there. VC, Beastmen, Wood Elf kingdoms are pretty tight as it is. For an army to get a whole book, they need really a land mass of some sort. It's hard to think of an empire of werewolves in the Old World.

I wouldn't poop on your aims, but I think they would have to be in Araby or someplace. And maybe some outposts were setup. They aren't my thing but knock yourself out.

   
Made in gr
Regular Dakkanaut




I understand your point, but rpg werewolves are scattered across the world. They are minority comparing to humans, so they don't claim cities etc, but they just dwell in lesser domains like some forest grooves, around some lakes, caves or even sewers.
As for TK Lizards etc, they are pretty influenced by actual history: TK are an Egypt themed army, and Lizrdmen an Aztec themed army. That's still cool for me, I just mention it.
   
Made in us
Road-Raging Blood Angel Biker




ohio

I could see kislev getting a werewolf (more like werebear) unit if they were still around.

"The horses look mighty thin today! And the men look absolutely starved! Perhaps we should hold a feast to brighten spirits, and fill bellies"- a slightly disillusioned tomb king to his herald. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





The theme is just the artwork and such. Lizardmen have about as much to do with Aztecs as Manchester United soccer. They're space lizards with buddha frog leaders who use magic/science.

   
Made in gr
Regular Dakkanaut




Well the influence is very obvious, use their equipment and clothes on humans, and you have an Aztec army, plus the areas Aztecs used to live were full of serpents. An this is not the only army with a theme like that. Beastmen are influenced by greek mythology, O&G by african tribes, Bretonnia by france medieval armies, Empire by Prussia etc.
   
Made in gb
Angered Reaver Arena Champion




Connah's Quay, North Wales

There is a lot of land mass in the Old World that is largely unclaimed that I could see Werewolves coming from. I must admit I have put a lot of thought into a Werewolf army before and it ended up being a mix of beastmen and vampire counts, which I guess is what it should be. As for their land/fluff I would imagine they would originate from Drakwald forest, it is large enough to house them discreetly and would give them natural enemies in the Empire and Beastmen. I would imagine the troops would simply be feral humans, maybe Gors with movement 6 or something with the Lords being powerful Werewolves on the same level as Vampire Lords. Magic would be a mix of Lore of the Wild and Beast Magic and would be largely buff based, call of the hunt granting frenzy or swiftstrider or something.

All in all I think it is a great idea and would like to help where I could.

 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





WHFB needs more neutral armies.

   
Made in us
Killer Klaivex




Oceanside, CA

 DukeRustfield wrote:

For WW to be in the game, they would be smack in the Old World almost certainly. And it's awful crowded there. VC, Beastmen, Wood Elf kingdoms are pretty tight as it is. For an army to get a whole book, they need really a land mass of some sort. It's hard to think of an empire of werewolves in the Old World.
I wouldn't poop on your aims, but I think they would have to be in Araby or someplace. And maybe some outposts were setup. They aren't my thing but knock yourself out.

You could have the background of the WW army be that it rises up in outbreaks of Lycanthropy.
A single werewolf could infest a broader town, which then over-runs a few towns in the area. In short order, you've got a full scale outbreak on your hands, where peasants, farmers and barmaids have transformed into a viable fighting force.
So it's not a race with an independent culture, customers and society, but rather a magical affliction that can erase whole sections of farmland.

The real question becomes though, what does a Werewolf army bring to the game/background that can't be done or explained by beastmen?

-Matt

 thedarkavenger wrote:

So. I got a game with this list in. First game in at least 3-4 months.
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Yeah, I think Beastmen and even VC are a little threadbare as it is. VC mostly because it's such a damn small territory and if anyone really wanted to I'd think they could just brush them aside. What would an Orc Waagh care about some spooky castles?

But I think you could easily fit WW under Beastmen or even VC. In fact, you could use those rules and just do a counts-as. You can do that for quite a lot of things of course.

   
Made in au
Numberless Necron Warrior





Melbourne, VIC

Beastmen are the closest to the concepts of Werewolves.

There used to be a Werebear character with units from Norsca but I forgot his name.

It was back in 3rd or 4th edition with the Dogs of War.

God I am old..


-Dert

 
   
Made in gr
Regular Dakkanaut




 HawaiiMatt wrote:

You could have the background of the WW army be that it rises up in outbreaks of Lycanthropy.
A single werewolf could infest a broader town, which then over-runs a few towns in the area. In short order, you've got a full scale outbreak on your hands, where peasants, farmers and barmaids have transformed into a viable fighting force.
So it's not a race with an independent culture, customers and society, but rather a magical affliction that can erase whole sections of farmland.

The real question becomes though, what does a Werewolf army bring to the game/background that can't be done or explained by beastmen?

-Matt


Hope I can answer that, so I'm sharing my thoughts.
Werewolves are connected to their human families, trying to protect them. They are also linked to the spiritual world and the mother earth, or at least their interpretation of this. They believe that mother earth recruited them to protect her from her enemies, coming from the spiritual/chaos world.
Also, werewolves are organised in clans, most of which have differences, even rivalry.
Werewolves are born of 1 human and 1 werewolf parent. Those who are children of werewolf parents are deformed, loked down by the other werewolves, but have powers of both species.
Their signature feature is their warcries. Howling can terrorize even the bravest of men, and it's a sign of a werewolf's intentions, strength, or mood.
They also come in 5 forms, simply said: human, wolf, human with wolf characteristics, wolf with human characteristics, and pure werewolf. All 5 forms can fit to warhammer units, because they have different powers and features.
Generally, werewolves are a more dramatic army. Behind their dreadful appearance, are hidden tales of great grief and sorrow.
Another important elemnt is their elders, who master magic, are hgh in hierarchy and speak of prophecies.
The moon and the phases of it is also crucial to a werewolf: the phase of the moon the day a werewolf was born determines in a great degree their nature: others become warriors, others judges, others rogues, bards, mages etc.
Due to their curse, werewolves hide a ferocious beast within them. When pushed to their limits, this monster is released, and then a werewolf becomes an uncontrollable killing machine.

All the above are some features that make them special, and I have ideas to make them rules, and use them to explain these rules. For examples, warcries will be bound spells, or something similar to WE Wardancers dances. Also, mutated werewolves will have some random disdvantages and advantages, like ASL(deformed arms)+extra attack(third arm) etc.
I can see the similarities with beastmen, but I think thei will have many differences too.
   
Made in us
Evasive Eshin Assassin





Um...

1. That's Werewolf: the Apocalypse. Not Warhammer. The entire social aspect of "what it's like to be a werewolf" would never really be covered in a table-top war game. It's too personal.

2. Keep in mind that White Wolf made up all of that tribal/spiritual stuff (especially when they refined the game into Werewolf: the Forsaken) so that you could play a group of characters that weren't, you know, just mindless, blood-thirsty killing machines.
...but in Warhammer? It would be totally legit.

3. It really bugs me that so many people seem to think, "There's a vampire army. Why not werewolves?" They're not remotely related. At all. Underworld did it. And anything after that was basically because of Underworld.
Vampires in Warhammer have a very specific reason for being as they are. It's a pretty rich background, what with the Tomb Kings, and Nagash, and all that good stuff.

Werewolves, in the simplest sense, are men that have turned into monsters.
Beastmen are exactly that.
In fact, there's a story in the Beastmen book that describes a man mutating into a hideous monster due to the corrupting pull of the Chaos Moon.
I mean, sure, he had horns and hooves. But it's pretty obvious where they're pulling that concept from.

Werewolves are (and this is the foundation that White Wolf was working off of, not what they laid down on top of that) a fear of the wild places of the world. Way back when, the forest was an effing scary place. Who knows what's in there?
Actually, I feel like there's at least one mention in the Beastmen book about how there's a lot of goat-people, but there are other kinds, too.
So, if the inherent-evil-within-nature concept isn't enough, and you also just really like wolves, that's still an option. If it's more about theme, and less about dogs, you don't need anything more than Beastmen as they are.

But if you're looking for something that's not just about werewolves, but the interpretation of said mythical creatures according to White Wolf...I dunno, man. White Wolf is all about angst and tragedy. Warhammer has plenty of tragedy. But never for its own sake. The sadness in Warhammer is just the necessary pause between huge battles where a zillion people die and the daemons get that much closer to eating reality.

I mean, I play Changeling: the Lost. Faeries aren't mentioned at all in Warhammer beyond Athel Loren...but I think we should keep it that way. I like both games. They can stay two separate games.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/03/18 00:05:58


 
   
Made in gr
Regular Dakkanaut




1.That's how I started in the first place, I mention it in my initial post. I know that social aspects can't be made into rules, but there's enough material to inspire me.

2.In White Wolf's Werewolf, there are not only the characters you play, there are the ones you DO NOT play. So, frnzied bloodthirsty puppets do exist.

3.I agree, and I do not want to introduce werewolfs to fight vampires, after all they have more important enemies, I just feel that this is a fantasy creature missing.

I also like a chinese themed army, with rules/spells/units inspired from chinese history. But this is solved, as I found the Cathay unofficial armybook. which covers that theme.

Bear in mind that I don't try to transform white wolf's werewolf into a warhammer army. Werewolves were a concept long before white wolf. The difference is that white wolf offers you more details and ideas, and that's why I'm using it to get ideas for a new army.

I will try the same if I ever feel there's something missing.
   
Made in us
Evasive Eshin Assassin





Heh. #2. I'm well aware of NPC's. My point was simply that, before The Apocalypse and Forsaken, the concept of a werewolf was largely of a solitary monster; a remorseless killing machine, without motive or depth. The game added those things, because they're needed to portray one to any satisfying degree.
...but Warhammer needs no such thing.

Once again: look to the Beastmen, with their Bray Shamans, and their Herd Stones, and their Ambush.

 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Auburndale FL

So came up with an example of how it could work, (by no means done or even balanced lol)


Lycan Cult

Army Wide Special Rules

Chosen of Morrslieb
Each turn after charges have been moved roll for each unit with this rule on a 6 that unit transforms and may use its Lycan statline however they will transform back if they do not deal at least 1 wound in their or opponents next Close Combat phase or flee. When transformed the models with this rule may not use their weapons they also lose their Shields but retain Light or Heavy armor if they had it, lastly the model gains a 6+ Scaly Skin Save (Lords and Heroes lose magical armor but gain a 4+ Scaly Skin that combines with their Light or Heavy armor.)

Beserk
A unit with this special rule counts as having the Chosen of Morrslieb and frenzy special rules. However they also transform as soon as a model from this unit takes a wound.

LORDS:

Morrslieb Father/Human (165)
M: 4
WS: 5
BS: 4
S: 4
T: 4
W: 3
I: 5
A: 3
LD: 8

Morrslieb Father/Lycan
M: 6
WS: 6
BS: 4
S: 6
T: 5
W: 4
I: 6
A: 5
LD: 9

Equipment: Handweapon, Light Armor (Heavy for 10)
Special Rules: Chosen of Morrslieb

Cult Father: at any time a unit within 12" transforms this model and any unit he is with will immediately transform.

Brothers: all Father and Morrslieb Father models with 6" gain Hatred Special rule if a model with this special rule is in base contact with an enemy model.

May choose one of the following upgrades and it doesnt count towards his magical item limit.

Blood Roar: Every wound he deals allows him to roll a single D6 on each 5 one more rank of the unit he is with may fight.
(35)

Gaze of Morrslieb: Choose 1 Wizard each magic phase within 18" of this model that Wizard now must pass a leadership test using its own leadership with no rerolls allowed and if failed is unable to cast spells that phase.
(35)

Alpha Male: In a Challenge this model rerolls hits and wounds and the enemy must reroll passed armor saves.
(25)


Sacred of Morrslieb/Human (200)
M: 4
WS: 4
BS: 3
S: 4
T: 4
W: 3
I: 3
A: 1
LD: 7

Sacred of Morrslieb/Lycan
M: 6
WS: 5
BS: 3
S: 4
T: 4
W: 3
I: 4
A: 3
LD: 8

Equipment: Staff
Upgrades Level 4 for 35 points
(Lore of Death or Shadows)

Special Rules:

Channel Morrslieb: +1 to channeling attempts. When a model with this rule channels you may either add 1 dice to the power pool or select a unit within 12" to have transform.

HEROES:

Father/Human (75)
M: 4
WS: 4
BS: 4
S: 4
T: 4
W: 2
I: 4
A: 2
LD: 7

Morrslieb Father/Lycan
M: 6
WS: 5
BS: 4
S: 5
T: 5
W: 3
I: 5
A: 4
LD: 8

Equipment: Handweapon, Light Armor (Heavy for 8)
Special Rules: Chosen of Morrslieb

Cult Father: at any time a unit within 6" transforms this model and any unit he is with will immediately transform.

Brothers: all Father and Morrslieb Father models with 6" gain Hatred Special rule if a model with this special rule is in base contact with an enemy model.

Disciple of Morrslieb/Human (100)
M: 4
WS: 3
BS: 3
S: 3
T: 3
W: 2
I: 3
A: 1
LD: 7

Disciple of Morrslieb/Lycan
M: 6
WS: 4
BS: 3
S: 4
T: 4
W: 3
I: 4
A: 2
LD: 8

Equipment: Staff
Upgrades Level 2 for 35 points
(Lore of Death or Shadows)

Special Rules:

Channel Morrslieb: +1 to channeling attempts. When a model with this rule channels you may either add 1 dice to the power pool or select a unit within 12" to have transform.

CORE:

Lycan Brethren/Human (10 points each)
M: 4
WS: 3
BS: 3
S: 3
T: 3
W: 1
I: 3
A: 1
LD: 7

Lycan Brethren/Lycan
M: 6
WS: 4
BS: 3
S: 4
T: 4
W: 1
I: 4
A: 3
LD: 7

Equipment: Light Armor, Handweapon, Shield
Heavy Armor 2 points per model, Halberds 1 point per model.
Special Rules: Chosen of Morrslieb

Devotees (5 Points per model)
M: 4
WS: 2
BS: 2
S: 3
T: 3
W: 1
I: 3
A: 1
LD: 7

Equipment: 2 Hand Weapons (Daggers)
Special Rules: Skirmishers,
Devoted: if a model from this unit takes a wound then all units with the special rule Chosen of Morrslieb may transform, also if this unit is in combat that is involved with a unit with the Chosen of Morrslieb special rule then this units losses do not count towards combat resolution.

Trained Dogs (12 Points per model)
M: 7
WS: 2
BS: 2
S: 3
T: 3
W: 1
I: 3
A: 2
LD: 7

Special Rules:
Harriers: Count as being Fast Calvary
Do not count as Core

SPECIAL:

Beserkers/Human (15 points each)
M: 4
WS: 4
BS: 3
S: 4
T: 3
W: 1
I: 4
A: 1
LD: 8

Lycan Brethren/Lycan
M: 6
WS: 5
BS: 3
S: 6
T: 4
W: 1
I: 5
A: 3
LD: 8

Equipment: Heavy Armor, Great Weapons

Special Rules: Chosen of Morrslieb, Berserk

Morrslieb Seers (10 Points per model)
M: 4
WS: 3
BS: 3
S: 3
T: 3
W: 1
I: 3
A: 1
LD: 8

Equipment: Staves
Special Rules:

Morrsliebs Call:
Each Magic phase if a double is rolled on the winds of magic this unit gains a 5+ ward save and may choose a unit within 12" to also give a 5+ ward save.
On a double 1's this is reduced to a 6+ and on a double 6 its increased to a 4+

Carnage Totem: This unit may place a Totem upon the field this is represented by a small token, any enemy unit within 6" of the totem is hit with a +1 by any of your transformed units in close combat with it.

Spinebacks/Human (12 points each)
M: 4
WS: 4
BS: 4
S: 4
T: 3
W: 1
I: 3
A: 1
LD: 8

Vigilant/Lycan
M: 6
WS: 4
BS: 4
S: 5
T: 4
W: 1
I: 4
A: 3
LD: 8

Equipment: Light Armor, Handweapon, Shield,
Special Rules: Chosen of Morrslieb, Skirmishers,

Spines: When transformed this unit may make a shooting attack that has range 18" and multiple shots 4 special rules Strength 3 armor piercing.

Watchdogs: Whenever shooting the flank or rear of a unit the Spine Backs reroll to hit.


RARE:

Altar of Morrslieb (Chariot) (150)
M: 6
WS: 3
BS: 3
S: 5
T: 5
W: 5
I: 3
A: 3
LD: 8

2 Riders and a 5+ armor save

Special Rules:
Night Gathers: All units within 6" count as being in soft cover.

Reaping: When a unit within 6" causes an unsaved wound to an enemy unit this altar gains 1 wound back.

Conduit of Morrslieb: All Wizards within 6" have +1 to channel attempts.

Warpfiend (325)
M: 6
WS: 6
BS: 3
S: 7
T: 5
W: 6
I: 6
A: 7
LD: 8

4+ Scaly Skin
Special Rules: Chosen of Morrslieb

Warp Infused: Starts the game transformed and if ever transformed into human form is removed as a casualty. Only transforms into a human if it started its close combat phase in close combat and did not deal an unsaved wound.

Warp Aura: 6+ Rerollable Ward Save all enemy models in base contact must reroll passed ward saves.


 
   
Made in gr
Regular Dakkanaut




Very interesting, indeed. I will take this into consideration, and use it in accordance with my own ideas.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Auburndale FL

If you want I can help you more and work on it with you?

 
   
Made in gr
Regular Dakkanaut




Sure, I have written down my ideas, tomorrow I will organize them better so you can read them more easily.
   
Made in us
Road-Raging Blood Angel Biker




ohio

I would like to help with a new fan army!

I tried to get a team together on another forum to make a new kislev book, and would like to help with this.

Pm me if you're interested. If not its okay

"The horses look mighty thin today! And the men look absolutely starved! Perhaps we should hold a feast to brighten spirits, and fill bellies"- a slightly disillusioned tomb king to his herald. 
   
Made in gr
Regular Dakkanaut




 aapch45 wrote:
I would like to help with a new fan army!

I tried to get a team together on another forum to make a new kislev book, and would like to help with this.

Pm me if you're interested. If not its okay


I already play a Kislev army. It's not too strong right now, I think it needs some minor pumping up, but I have won some games.
Check:
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B_Redi9cZJ5iNVRCbFJMUVU5UXM/edit

If it doesn't cover you I can come up with some ideas.
   
Made in us
Crafty Clanrat




I'd like to see a Cathay army. All the fluff gives a good platform and the far east could use some rep in the warhammer world.

Its kinda funny how GW models the WHFB world map after the real map and how the armies rep diff nationalities. I can't figure out if Skaven are supposed to rep Roman culture permeating the world or if its all mafia.

Ppl see 4d6 casualties and think its limburger dick 
   
Made in us
Sergeant




America

Unless I'm remembering wrong, there are a fair number of canonical werewolves in the Drakwald of Middenland which are not entirely evil, they're basically men with the "Blood of Ulric" although they're believed to now be tainted by the Chaos of that forest. Of course that does not mean they are evil, but they are cursed. Perhaps they are the remnants of the province, now locked in a war for survival with the beast men. Basically they're "good" beast men. I think that is viable for a fairly limited army list, if not a full fledged army book.

Who is Barry Badrinath? 
   
Made in au
Paramount Plague Censer Bearer




Australia

Araby would rock! Summoning djinns and flying carpet fast cav!

 
   
Made in ie
Sniping Hexa




Dublin

There's already quite a few good-quality fan-made armies available
http://battlereporter.freeforums.org/warhammer-army-books-fan-made-unofficial-f88.html

 
   
Made in gr
Regular Dakkanaut




 Col. Tartleton wrote:
Unless I'm remembering wrong, there are a fair number of canonical werewolves in the Drakwald of Middenland which are not entirely evil, they're basically men with the "Blood of Ulric" although they're believed to now be tainted by the Chaos of that forest. Of course that does not mean they are evil, but they are cursed. Perhaps they are the remnants of the province, now locked in a war for survival with the beast men. Basically they're "good" beast men. I think that is viable for a fairly limited army list, if not a full fledged army book.


I think they are called sons of Ulric, but they are not enough to form an army. Cult of Ulric recreuits them oftenly.
   
Made in us
Crafty Clanrat




TanKoL wrote:
There's already quite a few good-quality fan-made armies available
http://battlereporter.freeforums.org/warhammer-army-books-fan-made-unofficial-f88.html


good read through. I would build a Cathay army, if that were the book GW published and the book is decent, good balance.

Ppl see 4d6 casualties and think its limburger dick 
   
 
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