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Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




It seems to be that the player base as a whole has written off the MT as a strong primary army, largely due to the fact that their codex lacks plenty of options. Is the lack of flexibility really such a big deal? After all, competitive lists these days just seem to be spamming a few choice units and calling it good.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/21 20:27:03


 
   
Made in us
Imperial Guard Landspeeder Pilot




On moon miranda.

Virtus wrote:
It seems to be that the player base as a whole has written off the MT as a strong primary army, largely due to the fact that their codex lacks plenty of options. Is the lack of flexibility really such a big deal? After all, competitive lists these days just seem to be spamming a few choice units and calling it good.
It's not just a limited number of units but a limited number of roles the units it does have are capable of.

the book is basically 1 elites choice, 1 FA choice, 1 HA choice and 1 Dedicated Transport. There's only so much that can be accomplished there. The Stormtroopers (or "Scions") are reliant on their special weapons for most of their killing and on the AP of their otherwise short range and low S guns to make up for the rest (which doesn't work as well as one would think) while all support firepower must come from somewhat expensive and lightly armored transports.

Essentially they operate somewhat like Dark Eldar, fast, lots specialized weapons, but they just don't have the range of tools or survivability to really make them work. An army of T3 4+sv dudes in light vehicles works when everything is a fast skimmer and the troops have decent stats aside from Strength and Toughness and there's some CC capability and dedicated fire support, it doesn't work when everything has a putz Guardsmen's statline and there's no dedicated support or CC capability.

IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.

New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights!
The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.  
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran





Virtus wrote:
It seems to be that the player base as a whole has written off the MT as a strong primary army, largely due to the fact that their codex lacks plenty of options. Is the lack of flexibility really such a big deal? After all, competitive lists these days just seem to be spamming a few choice units and calling it good.

The poster above me pretty much summed it up but I may aswell add.

Competitive lists spam units which are good Wave serpents/Venoms/Riptides/Heldrakes all these are really good units. The MT dex is just meh and seems on par with most meh supplements that offer nothing of interest.
   
Made in us
Wraith






The idea that it's a $50 codex, which the differences between it and the new IG book are essentially a warlord table, is the real source of negativity.

The book essentially feels like a quick double dip as it was released before the new IG book. This alone soured people to the concept whether it's actually good or not.

Shine on, Kaldor Dayglow!
Not Ken Lobb

 
   
Made in de
Regular Dakkanaut






I think MT would make a decent Kill teams army but outside of that they just dont do enough.

In before thread lock. 
   
Made in gb
Keeper of the Holy Orb of Antioch





avoiding the lorax on Crion

Seems rather small force for dedicated expensive book.

There hardly a all round force, is no hevey armour or such

Sgt. Vanden - OOC Hey, that was your doing. I didn't choose to fly in the "Dongerprise'.

"May the odds be ever in your favour"

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I have no clue how Dakka's moderation work. I expect it involves throwing a lot of d100 and looking at many random tables.

FudgeDumper - It could be that you are just so uncomfortable with the idea of your chapters primarch having his way with a docile tyranid spore cyst, that you must deny they have any feelings at all.  
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




I like it for sorta fluff reasons, if I wanted to just play as the elite storm trooper dudes...then this would be the army I'd like to make.

It doesn't matter that its less good, or fleshed out, that can be fixed through later data slates or other things...but that it alone can be its own army, if you only wanted to play storm troopers.

I think thats ok, and if GW can get a bit of that double-dip goodness w/e I don't care, it gives the option for a different flavor of guard.

Just because it also seems money grubbing doesn't mean that it doesn't fulfill a desire that's out there.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/21 21:09:31


 
   
Made in us
Imperial Guard Landspeeder Pilot




On moon miranda.

Forgeworld's IA12 does a very good Stormtrooper list. No flyers or Deep Strike, but Stormtroopers are Troops, WS4 are immune to fear and 25% morale tests, and there's a ton of support options.

IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.

New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights!
The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.  
   
Made in us
Abhorrent Grotesque Aberration





 TheKbob wrote:
The idea that it's a $50 codex, which the differences between it and the new IG book are essentially a warlord table, is the real source of negativity.

The book essentially feels like a quick double dip as it was released before the new IG book. This alone soured people to the concept whether it's actually good or not.


100% this. When this was released I knew the IG book had to be coming out shortly thereafter, so I waited. If there had been any compelling reason to pick up the MT book then I would have; but there wasn't. I'm not entirely sure what GW was trying to do here.

------------------
"Why me?" Gideon begged, falling to his knees.
"Why not?" - Asdrubael Vect 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





People continue to misunderstand that these supplements aren't primarily rulebooks.

It's like blaming an apple because it isn't an orange when you bought a bag marked "apples".

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/21 22:26:12


"'players must agree how they are going to select their armies, and if any restrictions apply to the number and type of models they can use."

This is an actual rule in the actual rulebook. Quit whining about how you can imagine someone's army touching you in a bad place and play by the actual rules.


Freelance Ontologist

When people ask, "What's the point in understanding everything?" they've just disqualified themselves from using questions and should disappear in a puff of paradox. But they don't understand and just continue existing, which are also their only two strategies for life. 
   
Made in us
Imperial Guard Landspeeder Pilot




On moon miranda.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
People continue to misunderstand that these supplements aren't primarily rulebooks.

It's like blaming an apple because it isn't an orange when you bought a bag marked "apples".
When the bag is marked "Apple" however, and it's not an apple, people then complain.

The Militarum Tempestus book wasn't released as "Militarum Tempestus: A Codex: Astra Militarum Supplement" the way that the supplement books were. If you look at the Black Legion book, it's titled "Black Legion, A Codex: Chaos Space Marines Supplement".

The MT book is titled "Codex: Militarum Tempestus", like any core codex would be.

It also has its own section on the webstore like any other Codex does (and which supplements like Raukaan and Black Legion do not).

IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.

New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights!
The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.  
   
Made in de
Decrepit Dakkanaut







It is an army, whose support by GW was basically cancelled after only 12 days. Noone without an iPad outside the USA can start this army because the Codex is out of print (Codex has been OOP in USA as well on day 2 after release,, but they got a small second shipment). Not sure though, if the "Codex new IG plastic kits" will be missed.

Hive Fleet Ouroboros (my Tyranid blog): http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/286852.page
The Dusk-Wraiths of Szith Morcane (my Dark Eldar blog): http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/364786.page
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If you want to understand the concept of the "Greater Good", read this article, and you never again call Tau commies: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utilitarianism 
   
Made in us
Angry Chaos Agitator





It's because we love armies with a lot of choices and support from GW. And we hate armies that have very little substance and that look like GW just dropped a turd in the punchbowl.

The MilTar only have three friggin' choices. How fascinating. Boy, I can really tell GW spent a lot of effort planning out their latest 'Army'.

The MilTar sure do have lots of support from GW. I mean, go try to buy their codex! Isn't it a hoot!
   
Made in es
Growlin' Guntrukk Driver with Killacannon






 Mysterious Pants wrote:
It's because we love armies with a lot of choices and support from GW. And we hate armies that have very little substance and that look like GW just dropped a turd in the punchbowl.

The MilTar only have three friggin' choices. How fascinating. Boy, I can really tell GW spent a lot of effort planning out their latest 'Army'.

The MilTar sure do have lots of support from GW. I mean, go try to buy their codex! Isn't it a hoot!


Then we should hate Necrons. When they were introduced back in 1998 all they had was Lords, Warriors, Scarabs and Destroyers. It wasn't until 2002 that they got Pariahs, Immortals, Tomb Spiders, C'Tan, the Monolith and a real codex, and even then Necron players had to wait till 2011 for an update. If that's your idea of "lots of choices" and "proper support"...

And please don't get me started on Sororitas.

In all seriousness I think the Tempestus (and Inquisition, and Imperial Knights) have plenty of room to expand (perhaps even more than the different flavors of Space Marines), and I hope they'll become fully-fledged armies one day. Of course I don't like that GW's currently charging nearly 40€ for what they used to offer on Chapter Approved for the cost of a magazine. And I like even less that they decided to pull the plug on one of their newest products without warning - GW's current erratic behavior is simply inexcusable. But this row of irritating business choices don't make me hate the faction nor the work of the sculptors, artists, writers and designers who created it.



War does not determine who is right - only who is left. 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





West Michigan, deep in Whitebread, USA

One thing this topic made me notice- Codex: MT is in the Imperial Guard section. And in there, a 10-man squad of the old metal Tallarn infantry is $40us. Frankly I was shocked they were still being sold.

But even more surprising, the cost, as they are a metal unit. A 10-man(woman?) Sisters of Battle squad is $73.50!!! Man, those backpacks really add to the cost, lol.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Then we should hate Necrons. When they were introduced back in 1998 all they had was Lords, Warriors, Scarabs and Destroyers. It wasn't until 2002 that they got Pariahs, Immortals, Tomb Spiders, C'Tan, the Monolith and a real codex, and even then Necron players had to wait till 2011 for an update. If that's your idea of "lots of choices" and "proper support"...


I don't think they even had Lords. Those were introduced later alongside Immortals and Destroyers. I think it was just Warriors and scarabs to start with, in White Dwarf for second edition. Pretty cool at the time, as scarabs were individually based, and each one in BtB witha tank reduced it's armor value..

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/04/22 04:00:41




"By this point I'm convinced 100% that every single race in the 40k universe have somehow tapped into the ork ability to just have their tech work because they think it should."  
   
Made in ca
Executing Exarch






 TheKbob wrote:
The idea that it's a $50 codex, which the differences between it and the new IG book are essentially a warlord table, is the real source of negativity.

The book essentially feels like a quick double dip as it was released before the new IG book. This alone soured people to the concept whether it's actually good or not.


Exactly this. I told a friend not to buy because it was only a few pages of rules, he did anyway, and he is so goddamn angry at GW about it. "Sleazy greedy feths" came up a few times along with comparing them used car salesmen, and I gotta say, he isn't wrong. The leadership in this company is so far away from its customers that you shouldn't feel bad for pirating things, and it will only become more wide spread the more they try to sleaze money from people.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/04/22 04:05:51


Rick Priestley said it best:
Bryan always said that if the studio ever had to mix with the manufacturing and sales part of the business it would destroy the studio. And I have to say – he wasn’t wrong there! The modern studio isn’t a studio in the same way; it isn’t a collection of artists and creatives sharing ideas and driving each other on. It’s become the promotions department of a toy company – things move on!
 
   
Made in us
Perfect Shot Black Templar Predator Pilot




Roseville, CA

$50 codex with about five real pages worth of actual game-usable content.

Makes people mad.
   
Made in au
[MOD]
Making Stuff






Under the couch

 Agent_Tremolo wrote:
Then we should hate Necrons. When they were introduced back in 1998 all they had was Lords, Warriors, Scarabs and Destroyers.

And very few people actually built an army of them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 DarknessEternal wrote:
People continue to misunderstand that these supplements aren't primarily rulebooks.

As was pointed out already, Codex: Militarum Tempestus is a Codex, not a Supplement.

But even if it was, people are going to continue to complain about supplements so long as supplements continue to fail to be what those people want. That's just the nature of the beast. If enough people complain often enough, maybe, just maybe, GW might take notice. It's happened before... The last time they went the supplemental codex route, for example.





This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/22 04:12:42


 
   
Made in us
Wraith






 DarknessEternal wrote:
People continue to misunderstand that these supplements aren't primarily rulebooks.

It's like blaming an apple because it isn't an orange when you bought a bag marked "apples".


If you label something as a game product, be it "data slate", "supplement", "codex" or otherwise, it will be judged as a game product. If it's not a game product, then it will be a Black Library release. I don't pay $50 for fluff or for worthless photos of stock models, zero customization, or anything uninteresting. I'm sure many other folks feel the same.

Prior to the new IG release, I knew this had "stinker" written on it. Turns out, it's literally about a page difference in terms of gameplay of what it's in the guard book. Sorry, I can read my Witchhunters or IG codex to read about Stormtroopers. Unless the new book gives fluff reason for the name change and what swamp they pulled the Taurox out of...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/22 04:13:55


Shine on, Kaldor Dayglow!
Not Ken Lobb

 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





West Michigan, deep in Whitebread, USA

Then we should hate Necrons. When they were introduced back in 1998 all they had was Lords, Warriors, Scarabs and Destroyers.



And very few people actually built an army of them.



*raises hand*

Me! Me!

Other than new plastic vehicles (and the Wraiths I need to get), my Necron Army is all 1st incarnation metal, other than metal Pariah models I am reusing as Lychguard and some ancient custom-casted walkers that are built like Scorpions that I used as Spyders when they came out in 3rd.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2014/04/22 04:16:53




"By this point I'm convinced 100% that every single race in the 40k universe have somehow tapped into the ork ability to just have their tech work because they think it should."  
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




To be honest, I would like to use the MT as my primary detachment, but I'm having a hard time justifying it...
   
Made in lu
Witch Hunter in the Shadows





Earth

I bought it. I wasn't really expecting much, but I enjoyed the fluff, and it was only 50 bucks. Can't really complain. Well, that's not true, I was a little disappointed that they couldn't take chimeras, and lost all of their cool deployment options.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/22 05:32:27


   
Made in ca
Executing Exarch






 DarknessEternal wrote:
People continue to misunderstand that these supplements aren't primarily rulebooks.

It's like blaming an apple because it isn't an orange when you bought a bag marked "apples".


That's all well and good until you get a sealed book that GW will not accept back unless there is a defect. Then its more like selling you a car, without an engine.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/22 05:54:45


Rick Priestley said it best:
Bryan always said that if the studio ever had to mix with the manufacturing and sales part of the business it would destroy the studio. And I have to say – he wasn’t wrong there! The modern studio isn’t a studio in the same way; it isn’t a collection of artists and creatives sharing ideas and driving each other on. It’s become the promotions department of a toy company – things move on!
 
   
Made in lu
Witch Hunter in the Shadows





Earth

 Ravenous D wrote:
 DarknessEternal wrote:
People continue to misunderstand that these supplements aren't primarily rulebooks.

It's like blaming an apple because it isn't an orange when you bought a bag marked "apples".


That's all well and good until you get a sealed book that GW will not accept back unless there is a defect. Then its more like selling you a car, without an engine.


This is bullocks. Do you go and buy a car before reading what other people have to say about it? Before test driving it? Absolutely not. Certainly you understand where GW is coming from, how do they know you haven't camscanned the book and are now returning it for a refund?

   
Made in au
[MOD]
Making Stuff






Under the couch

 Barksdale wrote:
This is bullocks. Do you go and buy a car before reading what other people have to say about it? Before test driving it?

How do you test drive a codex?


Certainly you understand where GW is coming from, how do they know you haven't camscanned the book and are now returning it for a refund?

I've worked in retail. As a general rule, we found it served the business better to not treat all of your customers as if they are thieves.

 
   
Made in lu
Witch Hunter in the Shadows





Earth

 insaniak wrote:

How do you test drive a codex?


You don't. What you can do, however, do a little research, before you spend thirty quid on something that you may not want.


 insaniak wrote:

I've worked in retail. As a general rule, we found it served the business better to not treat all of your customers as if they are thieves.


But what is the reason you are returning the book? If there is a defect, okay no problem. But not because you have already read it, and you don't like it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/22 06:04:29


   
Made in nz
Heroic Senior Officer




New Zealand

 Ravenous D wrote:
 DarknessEternal wrote:
People continue to misunderstand that these supplements aren't primarily rulebooks.

It's like blaming an apple because it isn't an orange when you bought a bag marked "apples".


That's all well and good until you get a sealed book that GW will not accept back unless there is a defect. Then its more like selling you a car, without an engine.


They are doing nothing wrong legally for selling you a book. Its up to you as the consumer to judge weather or not its worth your money. If you complain because you changed your mind, they have every right to not give you your money back. Unless they say the pages are made of gold, but they arent, then you can complain and demand refund. Simply dont buy something unless you wanna risk it, or you can read up on it first.

GW does nothing like sell you an car without engine. They sell you exactly what they say they sell you. The troll, is actually right.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/22 06:05:55


 
   
Made in us
Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






Pleasant Valley, Iowa

Ravenous D wrote:That's all well and good until you get a sealed book that GW will not accept back unless there is a defect.


Barksdale wrote:Certainly you understand where GW is coming from, how do they know you haven't camscanned the book and are now returning it for a refund?


While this is an interesting hypothetical exercise, has this actually been a situation? Someone bought the codex from GWS, tried to return it, and was unable to? Because that in and of itself would be quite surprising, in my experience. I have yet to hear of Games Workshop's customer service delivering less than a world-class response to a concern. I would expect them to take a return without any questions at all.



This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/22 06:08:36


 lord_blackfang wrote:
Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.

 Flinty wrote:
The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
 
   
Made in lu
Witch Hunter in the Shadows





Earth

Good point. This is what it says about returns on their site:

Whatever the reason you can cancel or return any order to us for a full refund, or exchange it for something else. No quibbles and no funny handshakes required.

Just call our customer service team on 0115 91 40000 or email them on uk.custserv@gwplc.com and they will take care of this for you as quickly and simply as possible.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/22 06:09:30


   
Made in us
Deranged Necron Destroyer





The Plantations

 Agent_Tremolo wrote:


Then we should hate Necrons. When they were introduced back in 1998 all they had was Lords, Warriors, Scarabs and Destroyers. It wasn't until 2002 that they got Pariahs, Immortals, Tomb Spiders, C'Tan, the Monolith and a real codex, and even then Necron players had to wait till 2011 for an update. If that's your idea of "lots of choices" and "proper support"


The problem with that analogy is the first "codex" was in White Dwarf. Not really the $50 price tag that the MT Codex has.
   
 
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