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Made in us
Calculating Commissar




pontiac, michigan; usa

Ok so I had this idea and the point of it would be you are limited to one and only one model of these and it possibly needs one turn just to reload. Basically it shoots out strength 10 large blasts at enemy targets which do d6 wounds. Similar to a warp lightning cannon but much more powerful (which is why there's only one and it has such limiting factors).

The misfire chart would include a catastrophic meltdown that blows up in a super large template (imagine an air raid sound with skaven hitting the deck and a mushroom cloud explosion).

I'm unsure how this would be done but I imagine a Dr. Evil-esque mad scientist warlock in command of this death ray or doomsday device. It should also cost a lot of points I imagine.

Not too sure on the specifics but I've been mulling around this idea for a little bit. It might be too much like a warp lightning cannon though but I suppose this should also be able to allow warlocks to channel magic better as well as shoot off their own warp lightning shots better. That said it will also cost a lot of points. Perhaps it could be a mount for warlock engineers much like a plague priest can go on a furnace or a grey seer can go on a screaming bell. Then again if we did this maybe clan eshin and moulder should get something. Master moulders riding an abomination perhaps? I dunno what clan eshin would do though.

I figure the death ray should be similar to the empire light wizard machine.

http://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Empire-Luminark-of-Hysh

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/05/19 08:27:42


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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





S10 Large blast D6 is all a bit much no matter what happens.

Even if it was a 50/50 chance of blowing up it's just going to blow up itself because you're not going to be dumb enough to ever put any units remotely near it.

The empire light thing, which is what I thought it was at first, is just a beam--bolt thrower. Which is a world apart from a large template. It's also S8 and D3.

If you ever fight anything with multi-wounds, such as MC or MI, or monsters, this weapon is nearly guaranteed to pay for itself in one shot unless it cost like 400+.

Lizardmen have their bound spell one that does hits of a random strength. That's very Skaven-y and it also forces you to use PD. If you want to make it more Death Ray, you could say the number of consecutive turns you maintain it at the same target it gets better in some way. Like strength goes up.

But you taking an already powerful weapon, the warp lightning, and just making it a whole lot better isn't so hot. Empire doesn't have a Hellblaster cannon and a Holy Crapblaster cannon. Find a different mechanism.

   
Made in us
Calculating Commissar




pontiac, michigan; usa

 DukeRustfield wrote:
S10 Large blast D6 is all a bit much no matter what happens.

Even if it was a 50/50 chance of blowing up it's just going to blow up itself because you're not going to be dumb enough to ever put any units remotely near it.

The empire light thing, which is what I thought it was at first, is just a beam--bolt thrower. Which is a world apart from a large template. It's also S8 and D3.

If you ever fight anything with multi-wounds, such as MC or MI, or monsters, this weapon is nearly guaranteed to pay for itself in one shot unless it cost like 400+.

Lizardmen have their bound spell one that does hits of a random strength. That's very Skaven-y and it also forces you to use PD. If you want to make it more Death Ray, you could say the number of consecutive turns you maintain it at the same target it gets better in some way. Like strength goes up.

But you taking an already powerful weapon, the warp lightning, and just making it a whole lot better isn't so hot. Empire doesn't have a Hellblaster cannon and a Holy Crapblaster cannon. Find a different mechanism.


Yeah which is why I limited it to one unit, a lot of points and made it cool down for an entire turn.

Which is part of what balances it out a bit. Yeah you won't deploy near it. That means it'll be on the edge of your army and would die easier to flanking units which this will be a prime target of. This means you'd need to protect it pretty heavily with light units you don't mind losing but enough to kill off chaff and such.

I haven't seen the empire light thing myself so i'll admit it was an assumption more than anything as a possible warlock carrier that'd boost warp lightning spells.

I was also thinking of the possibility of it being like the lizardmen bound spell. However that should mean it can become pretty freaking powerful which it very much should.

Once again it's just one unit and you never know what future empire might bring. Besides if I remember they have steam tanks, multiple war machines, cavalry, monstrous cavalry and a variety of goodies skaven don't have. Yeah we don't see a Holy Crapblaster cannon but we do see ogre cannons which fire strength 10 grapeshot. That's a big deal too.

I'm totally ok if this is like 500 pts to buy as well. Keep in mind that means a lot of rares i can't take. Imagine having to worry about no cannons, abominations, doomwheels or anything else skaven may bring in the future but one crazy, crazy cannon which is out in the open.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/05/19 09:53:30


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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





You can't really balance stuff that is that powerful and it's not fun. If you spend 20 minutes setting up a game against Ogres and you shoot them once and take out 2/3rds of their core in the first turn...that's just not interesting.

It would decimate any cavalry, any MC, MI. Basically anything semi-elite or higher that is formed in ranks couldn't be used against an army that has this because it would make the cost of the item worth it in 1-2 shots guaranteed. That's pretty much half the game.

You can't "balance" something simply by making it expensive. You also have to think about playability. Like I said, even if it was 50:50 exploding, it's like a lvl 6 spell that costs no PD and the enemy can't do anything against whatsoever.

I know there is a cool factor in making stuff bigger and badder, but no one wants to play against it.

And a death RAY isn't going to be a huge template anyway. It would be a ray. Not a lot of things use a large template, and I don't think anything comes even remotely close to being S10 and D6.

   
Made in ca
Pustulating Plague Priest






I'm afraid I agree with DukeRustfield on this one. Basically there's something that will either blow itself up and many points will have been wasted or it will curbstomp other armies.
What if there was a weakness that the opponent can exploit instead of the opponent relying solely on chance?

I also just took a look at the Screaming Bell. That one has you rolling 3 D6s and determining the result on a table. Maybe you could try a warp lightning attack that fires strength 2D6 blasts? That way, it can still be potent, but still has a chance of self-destrucing (any result over 10 causes the ray to suffer a wound). That way, it can still be destroyed by the enemy instead of the enemy trying to hide from it until it blows up and still has the Skaven chance factor in it.

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Made in us
Killer Klaivex




Oceanside, CA

What I would do is make a modified warp lightning cannon.
~200 points.

Firing: Choose a firing point within range and line of sight. Choose a direction and roll an artillery die. Draw a line the length of the artillery die. All models under this line take a hit equal to the artillery die, no armor saves. Place a marker on the end point of the line, leaving the death ray pointed at this end point.
Continuous Beam: If you previously fired, you may keep the beam on. Using this option, you choose the end point of your last shot as the start point of your new shot. Roll two artillery dice then choose highest. Draw an extension to the line in any direction. Models take a hit equal to the artillery die, now doing D3 wounds (no armor save).
Death Ray: You can continue the line a third time, now you roll 3 Artillery dice, and drop one of your choice. The line now does D6 wounds at a strength equal to the highest die. (A 4th or further shots on the same line process as "Death Ray".)

In all cases, if the roll from the length of the line is a misfire, consult some table of horrible effects.


The idea is to give up the blast of a warp lightning cannon, and in exchange, be able to sweep the shot side to side.
Initially it isn't great; the 2nd shot is good, and the 3rd shot (if you haven't misfired yet is awesome). This is somewhat balanced be knowing where the 2nd/3rd shot are going to be (they have to start off the end of the last shot, so you could try and run from it).


 thedarkavenger wrote:

So. I got a game with this list in. First game in at least 3-4 months.
 
   
Made in us
Calculating Commissar




pontiac, michigan; usa

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
What I would do is make a modified warp lightning cannon.
~200 points.

Firing: Choose a firing point within range and line of sight. Choose a direction and roll an artillery die. Draw a line the length of the artillery die. All models under this line take a hit equal to the artillery die, no armor saves. Place a marker on the end point of the line, leaving the death ray pointed at this end point.
Continuous Beam: If you previously fired, you may keep the beam on. Using this option, you choose the end point of your last shot as the start point of your new shot. Roll two artillery dice then choose highest. Draw an extension to the line in any direction. Models take a hit equal to the artillery die, now doing D3 wounds (no armor save).
Death Ray: You can continue the line a third time, now you roll 3 Artillery dice, and drop one of your choice. The line now does D6 wounds at a strength equal to the highest die. (A 4th or further shots on the same line process as "Death Ray".)

In all cases, if the roll from the length of the line is a misfire, consult some table of horrible effects.


The idea is to give up the blast of a warp lightning cannon, and in exchange, be able to sweep the shot side to side.
Initially it isn't great; the 2nd shot is good, and the 3rd shot (if you haven't misfired yet is awesome). This is somewhat balanced be knowing where the 2nd/3rd shot are going to be (they have to start off the end of the last shot, so you could try and run from it).



So you can change the line's direction at will? I think I like that. Force it to go forward, to the left, right, or backwards from where it was.

If one artillery die on the misfire chart was a misfire but the rest weren't can I still discard it? You said discard any of your choice however you said the roll so I'm unsure. I'm guessing that if you discard the misfire for the death ray result you're fine though.

You also mean a strength hit equal to the roll on the artillery die right?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/05/19 18:21:45


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Made in us
Killer Klaivex




Oceanside, CA

You can change the lines direction, but you're tied to the previous aim point if you want to roll the extra artillery dice.

Yes, if you discard the artillery die, you ignore it. If the discarded die was the misfire, you ignore that misfire.
This makes the first shot more dangerous and weaker, then once the machine is up and running, continuing it isn't quite a risky; but against a moderately mobile opponent, they may be able to get out of the way.

Of course, it already needs a FAQ.
What happens if the shot is in the front arc but goes sideways through a unit?
Answer: Resolve the number of hits as per a cannon bouncing, except use the start of the line as if that was the cannons position. If the initial spot is in the front arc, you are limited by the number of ranks in hits (just like a cannon). If the initial spot in in the flank, then you are limited by the targets columns (just like a cannon).

Anyhow, I think it might be fun to play.

-Matt

 thedarkavenger wrote:

So. I got a game with this list in. First game in at least 3-4 months.
 
   
Made in us
Evasive Eshin Assassin





I played a game with a Skaven Doomsday-esque device as a special feature on the table.

My opponent needed to break through my line and break the machine. I needed to get some warp-cells to power it up and let it charge a few turns.
It was pretty neat.

A large S10 template just isn't something you can toss around.
Now, if you wanted to play in a huge game, you could build some sort of crazy device. Look at the Thunderbarge in the BRB.
Just smash three Warp Lightning Cannons, two Doomwheels, 13 Jezzail teams, and two Warpfire Throwers together.
Oh, and make it Unbreakable. There. Doomsday device.

 
   
Made in gb
Sinister Shapeshifter




The Lair of Vengeance....Poole.

Warpsolution wrote:
I played a game with a Skaven Doomsday-esque device as a special feature on the table.

My opponent needed to break through my line and break the machine. I needed to get some warp-cells to power it up and let it charge a few turns.
It was pretty neat.

A large S10 template just isn't something you can toss around.
Now, if you wanted to play in a huge game, you could build some sort of crazy device. Look at the Thunderbarge in the BRB.
Just smash three Warp Lightning Cannons, two Doomwheels, 13 Jezzail teams, and two Warpfire Throwers together.
Oh, and make it Unbreakable. There. Doomsday device.


I'm picturing that device. I'm pretty sure it's in the skaven book somewhere. It sounds bent enough!


Onto the doomsday cannon. Make it like the warp lightning random direction misfire. But as a bound spell!

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Made in us
Evasive Eshin Assassin





I think the key is that, if you want a Big Unit to do one Big Thing, it's never going to work. Like the large S10 template. I mean, even if it costs 500pts and has a 50-50 shot of exploding, that basically means you're playing Heads-or-Tails instead of Warhammer, you know?

Besides, when has a Doomsday Device ever been so simple as "Hurrr it's a big gun hurrr"? I mean, look at the Deathstar, the epitome of such things. It had a big ol' cannon. And was covered in guns. And full of ships that were covered in guns and full of more ships.

So I'd do something like:

Mobile Warp Fire-Lightning Cannon-Cannon Fortress

WS3 BS3 S6 T6 I4 W10 A special M special Ld7

Special Rules: Grind Down the Foe (2d3), Impact Hits (2d6+2), Jezzail Garrison, Lightning Barrage, Random Attacks, Random Movement (3d6), Scaly Skin (4+), Terror, Unbreakable, Warpflame, Zzzap! Bolts

Grind Down the Foe- the Mobile Warp Fire-Lightning Cannon-Cannon Fortress deals 2d3 automatic hits at it's strength at the beginning of any close combat round in which it did not charge. Treat these attacks as Impact Hits.

Jezzail Garrison- 13 Jezzail teams take cover in the armoured hull of the Mobile Warp Fire-Lightning Cannon-Cannon Fortress. The Mobile Warp Fire-Lightning Cannon-Cannon Fortress may fire up to 13 times in any direction, even in a turn it has moved or marched (but not charged). These shots are resolved in the same way as a Warplock Jezzail team.

Lightning Barrage- the Mobile Warp Fire-Lightning Cannon-Cannon Fortress may fire up to three shots in it's front arc, even in a turn it has moved or marched (but not charged). Lightning Barrage shots are resolved in the same way as those of a Warp Lightning Cannon. If a Lightning Barrage shot misfires, the Mobile Warp Fire-Lightning Cannon-Cannon Fortress takes 1 wound.

Random Attacks- in close combat, the Mobile Warp Fire-Lightning Cannon-Cannon Fortress makes 4d6 WS3 S3 attacks, to represent the Engineers, Jezzail gunners, and workers who abandon their duties of steering and powering the Mobile Warp Fire-Lightning Cannon-Cannon Fortress long enough to attack the enemy.

Warpflame- the Mobile Warp Fire-Lightning Cannon-Cannon Fortress may make two shots in it's front arc. Resolve shots from Warpflame as Warpfire Throwers. If a Warpflame shot misfires, the Mobile Warp Fire-Lightning Cannon-Cannon Fortress takes 1 wound.

Zzzap! Bolts- the Mobile Warp Fire-Lightning Cannon-Cannon Fortress fires 6 times. Resolve these shots as the Zzzap! bolts of a Doomwheel. If a Misfire! is rolled, the Mobile Warp Fire-Lightning Cannon-Cannon Fortress takes D3 wounds.

...and, you know, something that makes it so that when it takes wounds, it loses certain attacks, or however the Thunderbarge in the BRB does it.
Notice how this thing doesn't have a price tag? It shouldn't. It's absurd. The Mobile Warp Fire-Lightning Cannon-Cannon Fortress is clearly the centerpiece in some awesome battle. I'd say...let the other guy field an extra 1000pts of stuff. Or better yet, give the Skaven harder objectives in that battle.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/05/27 04:05:09


 
   
 
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