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Hello, I am looking into expanding my wargaming experience by investing into Warmachine and/or Hordes. Because getting into something new can be a little overwelming, I was hoping to get some advice on how to start. I just have some questions:

What rule books will I need to buy?

What army would you suggest for my aggressive and up close play style? Also, I'm lookong into painting something with a yellow color scheme.

What are some general Principles I should be aware of?

That is all I can think of now, but I may post other questions latter. Thank you for your help

What rules? The core rulebook. You don't need the army books unless you want fluff or tier lists for specific casters. Models released after the army books aren't in them regardless.
If you own a pad, consider picking up the card deals on War Room app.

Army? Any army. You might want to stay away from the combined arms armies such as Cygnar or Retribution. Beyond that it's a bit hard to point at an army in this game and say "this one is all about long ranged railguns and can only do gunlines" because none of the armies are that gimmicky. You may also want to stay away from Covergence since it's not a main army and is more of a veteran's choice.
Try to pick a few aesthetics as a first way to sort out and ask more detailed questions.

Principles? Well, going from 40k the most important difference is that each unit/model activates individually and not in phases. You move, shoot, fight etc with one unit and then move on. Yeah, it's a basic thing to say but it's one of the things that mess the most with my own game so I think it's worth mentioning.
Focus or Fury is the other important aspect. Both Focus and Fury fuels your warcaster/warlock's spells.
Focus is a warmachine thing and is generated by your warcaster and distributed in the beginning of a phase to your warjacks as you see fit. Warjacks use them to do special things (such as a Glasgow Kiss), charge, run etc..
Fury is a horde thing is generated by your warbeasts when they do special things and can cause them to throw a tantrum unless your warlock or other entity take fury off of them in the beginning of a turn.

Other than that? Well... the rules state explicitly what they do. Nothing ambiguous anywhere. No fifty different ways of telling you to kill off a model. If it says wounded, then it's wounded. If it's removed from play, it's removed from play and not wounded. Things like that also happen in a specific order.

The only book you should need to start out is prime or primal mark II. If you want a warmachine army it's prime if you want a hordes army it's primal, but they're almost identical rulesets with the difference being focus and fury, the resources used to cast spells.

In Warmachine your warcaster leads the army and produces focus at a set rate per turn (from 5-10), giving it to 'jacks for them to do more things or using it to cast spells. In hordes you generate fury with your warbeasts and take the fury from them at the start of the turn except on the first turn when you are automatically filled with fury so you can cast spells. The other key difference between focus and fury what the resource left over on your 'caster at the end of the turn does. Focus increases your armor by 1 for each remaining focus, while fury allows you to transfer damage to your warbeast.

As for armies, in warmachine I'd say that agressive and close up would be cryx, khador, or possibly menoth. It should be noted that usually armies only run 1-2 warjacks.

In Hordes you use many more beasts, probably from 3-6 on average, and I'm pretty sure most factions in hordes can do melee pretty well, but I don't know too much about hordes factions so I can't help much there.

I hope I've been able to help you and if you need anything else just pm me.


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ninja'd

Thanks guys! This has really given me a clear understanding on what I need to do. My next question is how do I choose a warcaster and where can I preview there 'stats' so I can pick the best one for me?

 coolbrobunny wrote:
Thanks guys! This has really given me a clear understanding on what I need to do. My next question is how do I choose a warcaster and where can I preview there 'stats' so I can pick the best one for me?

Battle College has decent summaries for most warcasters and other assorted models, although it's occasionally slightly inaccurate with its interpretations, and sometimes downright wrong.

Otherwise, I do highly recommend the War Room app. It's $7 for every card ever printed and that ever will be printed for a faction, or $60 for every card ever released (and that ever will be released) for EVERY faction. Doesn't quite work as a rulebook substitute, but for reference (including individual rules NOT on cards and, IIRC, the timing chart) it's amazing. The new patch also got the list building on it working fantastically.

Hey always glad to have more people joining in. Check out http://battlecollege.wikispaces.com/space/menu for a rundown of all factions and their models. It doesn't give specific stats though. If you want specific stats grab the war room app. All the battle box stuff is viewable and you can open the rest at a decent price.

You say you want a fast paced aggressive style of play.

Thats pretty much the entire game in a nutshell, relative to other games.

Now on a faction comparison basis, there are a few candidates.

Khador: They have deceptively slow base speed stats but many ways of speeding them up. Word of warning, Khador is NOT a Warjack or Heavy infantry faction. They are a light/medium infantry faction. You almost always run 1 warjack and that is it. Its a common misconception. Generally a Khador list is a swarm of hard hitting and tough infantry with 1, maybe 2, very large warjacks backing them up.

Skorne: Yeah, their beasts do have some low base speed stats. But there are plenty of ways to make them faster, much faster. Anyone familiar with Molik Karn or a Bronzeback missile knows that they come from downtown and punch you in the face. If you like running a bunch of heavy beasts that punch stuff dead this is your faction. Skorne plays like people want/think that Khador plays. If you want an army of lots of large stompy things, Skorne is where its at.

Circle: Another aggressive alpha strike faction, except their beasts have very fast base speeds. Very hit and run orientated. They have 3 basic types of heavy beasts. Warpwolves, which are fast and hard hitting. Satyrs, which are also fast but less hard hitting and more niche orientated. And finally Wolds, which are animated rock/wood monsters, that are very slow but very durable. The Wolves and Satyrs are fast and nimble but pretty squishy. Their light beasts are mostly support orientated. They have Griffons, Argus, and the Gorax for lights(and a couple Wolds too) Only the Rotterhorn Giriffon, Argus Moonhound, and Gorax are really worth anything. The rest of the Griffons are pretty meh, and Argus are basically a bad joke that PP played on everyone.


Pick a faction and we can discuss specific casters.

Just a quick note, because it can be kinda' confusing:

Warmachine and Hordes are the same game. The only reason there are two separate rulebooks is because one set of factions make use of the 'focus' mechanic, and the other make use of the 'fury' mechanic. Considering that they're both kinda' complex mechanics, and that if they tried to jam both rulebooks together it'd be a huge tome, they separated the two sets of factions. Once you get a feel for the rules though, learning how the other one works is really easy.

Indeed. Its also separate because its sort of an accounting trick PP has going. So really its only an accounting thing, mechanically they are 95% identical and 100% compatible.

They just use 2 different types of magic, neither of which is confusing if you know the other. It can be explained pretty easily in 2-3 minutes.

Word of warning, Khador is not a "Big Brick" faction people think it is.


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 Grey Templar wrote:
Indeed. Its also separate because its sort of an accounting trick PP has going. So really its only an accounting thing, mechanically they are 95% identical and 100% compatible.

They just use 2 different types of magic, neither of which is confusing if you know the other. It can be explained pretty easily in 2-3 minutes.

Except stacking fury can sometimes be more infuriating. Yeah, I get+3 armor. but you can transfer the massive damage you just did.
But Im fine with that, fury has alot of rick, and the more Warbeasts I kill, the weaker your caster.

I would classify double Black Dragon builds as being a brick. Khador can definitely do the bricik, but not with the things that might immediately spring to mind.

I'm feeling a lot for comfortable starting myself up now. I just can't decide what army to get! Khador just look awsome and cool (but I have a red army already:p), Trollblood apeals to me as well (but I already play Orks), I like circles gollums but I hear they are difficult for new players. I also think menoth is intrestong but I really want a yellow paint scheme and feel it won't fit well. Maybe I'm being to picky but I really want to get one ill stick to.

 Grey Templar wrote:
I would classify double Black Dragon builds as being a brick. Khador can definitely do the bricik, but not with the things that might immediately spring to mind.

Double Black Dragon?

Any Khador player should know what Black Dragons are.

2 units of Black Dragon Ironfang Pikemen.

I never really saw anything special about them, I prefer my ShockTroopers with riflemen behind them shooting through them.

Then you are very different from the mainstream Khador meta, where Shocktroopers are very sub-par and Rifleman are very rarely seen.

And anything that lets you shoot through Shock Troopers will let you shoot through Iron Fangs, which are better in most ways.

Why? Riflemen seem great. I can boost their shots with Kovnik joe.

The WG infantry are more versatile, having both ranged and melee ability. The sprays from the UA are also very nice to have. 8" range is kinda lame, but they operate at close range anyway. The Rifleman are stuck in the back and unless you have eIrusk to hand out Martial Discipline you can't even shoot through your other units.

That is the whole point of my army.

You can paint your army any color. My Cygnar are purple. My Menoth are red and white. My Cryx are green, red and gray. Etc.

If you want yellow Khador knock yourself out.

Also, I'd say the most aggressive, in your face Warmachine faction is probably Cryx. They are fast, have great melee infantry and very little ranged game. Pretty much all the other factions have better ranged options.

Also, don't confuse Trollbloods with Orks. They aren't anything like them. If you have to compare them to some sort of 40K, I'd point towards one of the marine chapters. They're tough and competent and not at all very random, but owing to being a Hordes faction they have less shooting (naturally there are loads of exceptions.)

(Oh and GW trolls are swamp/fungus/dungeons and dragons while PP trolls are more traditional trolls which are more mineral based)

 Grey Templar wrote:
The WG infantry are more versatile, having both ranged and melee ability. The sprays from the UA are also very nice to have. 8" range is kinda lame, but they operate at close range anyway. The Rifleman are stuck in the back and unless you have eIrusk to hand out Martial Discipline you can't even shoot through your other units.

I have to stand up for hotsauceman: I've seen Khador players use Rifle Corps in my meta, and they have more tricks than you give them credit for. You have to be mindful of the following facts:

1.a. With Joe they have Deadeye on a stick, which makes them pretty accurate as far as most ranged infantry go: unlike many of their competitors, they don't need to sacrifice attacks to CRAs to achieve this.

1.b. They're one of the few accurate long-ranged units in the Khador stable (Widowmakers being the other).

2. Khador has a surprising number of damage buff/pseudo-buffs that work on ranged attacks. Signs and Portents/Hand of Fate are the obvious ones, along with pButcher's feat.

3. Further merc support like Aiyana and Holt.

A common thing one player does is run pVlad, Rifle Corps + Joe and A&H. With the buffs running you're looking at a unit that rolls 4d6-lowest for the attack roll, and with Harm+S&P you're looking at a unit where each model does an effective total POW 21 attack from 14" away. This will hit nearly everything that isn't protected by Stealth/Passage and can outright kill some of the lower armored warjacks/beasts in the game ("yes, I did gun down your Angelius in one round of shooting with my Rifle Corps. You appear to be mad."). Granted, you can argue that this is the inherent turd-polishing power of the Vlads at work, but this is also the sort of ranged punch that generally can't be done by even the "ranged-heavy" factions without the benefit of a feat.

Ultimately, it probably comes down to "does my warcaster have Iron Flesh?" Standard Winter Guard are probably better with IF casters, while others can make a strong argument for the Rifle Corps (with the Vlads probably preferring the latter in any cases where they're taking them). I think it's also worth bearing in mind that we are far from the days when Khador could run DEF 17+ infantry at people with near-impunity against some factions, so the WGI's status as an uber deathstar means less than it used to.

...what was this thread about again? Oh yeah, right.

I also think menoth is intrestong but I really want a yellow paint scheme and feel it won't fit well./quote]

Depends on the yellow. Menoth is a religious faction (in the Imperium "burn first, absolve later if needed' sense) so you're probably better off with a more somber, muted yellow tone rather than a bright, Bad Moons-esque shade.

As someone moving over from 40k I found the game to be fast pace, surprisingly tense and every decision is an important strategic life or death decision. I loved it! There aren't squads of useless dudes that you don't know what to do with, every model is important and adds something unique. (Yes, they have squads, but it plays out differently.) I played my first league game today with my Convergence army. (Lovecraftian machine worshiping cultists.) I barely beat a Skorne player. (A hordes army that's like an insane eastern culture, very hand to hand.)
What one of the previous posters said is true, the turn sequence is what will throw you the most coming over from GW games. Activating your guys in the right order is crucial. Who buffs who first and who does their special ability when, etc.
The second thing is the focus. Where and when you choose to spend your focus is also crucial. Do you pump up your CC warjack or boost your spells?
Also, get plastic covers to put over the warjack cards and use a dry erase marker to mark the damage. Makes things a WHOLE lot easier.

coolbrobunny wrote:Hello, I am looking into expanding my wargaming experience by investing into Warmachine and/or Hordes. Because getting into something new can be a little overwelming, I was hoping to get some advice on how to start. I just have some questions:

What rule books will I need to buy?

What army would you suggest for my aggressive and up close play style? Also, I'm lookong into painting something with a yellow color scheme.

What are some general Principles I should be aware of?

That is all I can think of now, but I may post other questions latter. Thank you for your help

First up, welcome to the iron kingdoms. dont forget your complimentary goggles and Nomad plushie.

What rule books to buy? None... to start with. the quickstart rules are free online and are all you need to get going with the battlebox starter sets (these also have a copy of the QSRs). After that though, i'd recommend picking up warmachine:prime mk2, or hordes: primal mk2, depending of course on what faction you pick. Dont worry about the games - their mechanics are about 95% identical; the only differences is that beasts and jacks operate slightly differently, and how the casters fuel/use their magic. Aside from that, i'd recommend the PP app warroom, which has access to all the cards for that faction for a song, as well as references to all the rules, abilities etc. i'd recommend the other books too (i have all the books), but its mainly for fluff; the books are generally rather optional.

aggressive and up close playstyle? all of them. this is not 40k. you cant gunline from your deployment zone and win. and with the focus on steamroller, and securing objectives you have to be able to move forward, move in and contest with fast, hard hitting units. but essentially, all factions have access to hard hitting, aggressive up close playstyles. even cygnar - the archetypcal ranged faction. its a requirement of the game.

Paint scheme? paint them however you want - you dont have to follow the "codex approved" patterns.

Principles to be aware of? Page 5.embrace it.

The 5 Rules of Page 5 - MKII
1) Thou Shalt Not Whine.
2) Come Heavy Or Don't Come At All
3) Give As Good As You Get
4) Win Graciously And Lose Valiantly
5) Page 5 Is Not An Excuse to be an Arse

Beyond that? everything can be built into a game winning strategy. not everything works with everything else - you cant just slap stuff on the board and expect it to win. synnergy is key. you build combos. you "stack the deck" to pull off an in-game cascade of pain.

THis is a game that rewards skill and experience. this is not 40k where you download the latest netlist and stomp ten year veterans without trying. skill and experience count in a very big way. its how you play. not what your faction is. and when you lose, and you will lose an awful lot to begin with, because the learning curve is quite steep, you will realise you lost, not because you play faction x, or because your opponent had a "broken army whinewhinewhine" but because your opponent outmanoevred you, out thought you and outplayed you. its a "fair" way of losing. you lose fair and square, generally. But you will learn. And it means when you do win, and you will, it will be all the sweeter, because you will have earned that win. Just remember the learning curve is steep - dont let that discourage you. Welcome to warmachine. its where gamers go when they grow up!

coolbrobunny wrote:Thanks guys! This has really given me a clear understanding on what I need to do. My next question is how do I choose a warcaster and where can I preview there 'stats' so I can pick the best one for me?

how do you choose a warcaster? easy. pick one you like. fluff. model. playstyle. etc. find something that hooks you into them. this is a character centric game. there are no "generic warnouns" for factions. they're all "names". its a shared narrative. For me, my favourite caster is the khadoran caster- Butcher. i love his backstory. on face value, he's just a psychopath with a big axe. dig deeper, and you see the trauma, and tragedy written all the way through his back story.suffering severely from PTSD. doesnt help that he is deeply unhinged character as well, and quite disconnected from reality at times. He's no simple psychopath - he's a tragic monster. I find the whole story quite fascinating and terrifying at the same time.

How would you do it? up to you. maybe you like a colour. a pose. some fiction. Just go for it.

coolbrobunny wrote:I'm feeling a lot for comfortable starting myself up now. I just can't decide what army to get! Khador just look awsome and cool (but I have a red army already:p), Trollblood apeals to me as well (but I already play Orks), I like circles gollums but I hear they are difficult for new players. I also think menoth is intrestong but I really want a yellow paint scheme and feel it won't fit well. Maybe I'm being to picky but I really want to get one ill stick to.

then dont paint them red. simples! trolls are fun, and circle is great.

Dont worry on the "they're tricky to pick up" comments. All factions are tricky to pick up. this is a game with a very steep learning curve. you will be up against it, regardless of what you take. Like i said above, you will lose a lot of your starting games regardless. its the initiation everyone who currently plays has gone through. you'll look back on it fondly, and recommend it to the next guy who wants to play. So take whatever faction you like the look of.

hotsauceman1 wrote:I never really saw anything special about them, I prefer my ShockTroopers with riflemen behind them shooting through them.

arm22 on minifeat turn, with no knockdown or stationary. the latter two are crucial. they lol at the pop n drop. then there is the tactics where they can choose where any damage they've caused gets applied. No rolling for column. so straight in to shredding their spirit (oh no! you killed their hopes and dreams!) and cortex columns. perfect way to cripple jacks and beasts without needing "luck". and they're quite cheap. they're solid as anything on the charge, as well as on the defensive. add in the kovnik, and they've got an 8" move with shield wall.

SHock troopers are solid, but slow. they've got no way to engage until late game, and then they lack the attacks to make it truly count. aside from epic Irusk, they dont work great with a lot of builds.

hotsauceman1 wrote:Why? Riflemen seem great. I can boost their shots with Kovnik joe.

shockies that are shot through by riflemen are great, but only with epic Irusk. he is the one caster who truly makes shock troops shine. beyond that though, they're a very specialist unit.

Riflemen are a great unit. i love them, and in a lot of ways, prefer them to the winter guard. 14" range guns is killer. boosted attack rolls is also solid, and they're great for clearing out light infantry. here's the thing though - they're pillow fisted. pow10s. they wont do much against heavier opponents bar plinkage. you need to invest in a 4pt unit - aiyanna and holt, and specific builds to get them into armour cracking territory. they also cannot deal with stealth. or melee. So in that sense, the deathstar, which is capable of higher def, has sprays which ignore stealth/cover/concealment/shooting into melee and has CMA (Joes +3strength battle cry is useful here!) is a far more versatile toolbox. the riflemen are great, but they need a buffer unit, because they cant duke it out in melee and they need someone to give them space to shoot. So then when you think about it, you've got the winter guard death star which supports itself for 13pts, or the riflemen which cost 14 with Joe and A+H, and still require other troops to act as a first wave. neither is a better option, but i'm just illustrating that riflemen arent all that and a bag of chips - though in timed turns i much prefer them myself. i just accept their limitations and use them accordingly.

The beauty of this game is that you can be competitive with any army, or fluffy if that is your thing.

If you DO play competitively, don't give up if you don't "click" with your chosen army. The armies have their own personalities, so do your research. There are people that outright suck with one army, try a different one and then proceed to smash faces in. Know yourself and how you play, and find the armies that are compatible with your play style.

Moktor wrote:
The beauty of this game is that you can be competitive with any army, or fluffy if that is your thing.

And Fluffy is fairly often competitive.

They aren't mutually exclusive.

 Grey Templar wrote:

Moktor wrote:
The beauty of this game is that you can be competitive with any army, or fluffy if that is your thing.

And Fluffy is fairly often competitive.

They aren't mutually exclusive.

True. I sometimes cross my Warmachine and 40k lines.

Even in 40k its true.

Some of the nastiest lists are also very fluffy.

I'll throw in a vote for Trollbloods as a possible faction for up-close, durable, and nasty. I am a relatively new player to the faction, but have found the "Meat Mountain" style of play obscenely satisfying, and probably good for a newer player in general. You can survive positioning errors, and well... anything better than most when you can so easily have a faction full of ARM20 infantry. :-p

Also, they look great in yellow. I've been painting yellow and black Trolls for the last two weeks now. :-)

Warmachine is all about resource management.

Hordes is about risk management.

Super easy to get into. Starter boxes are inexpensive. The free starter rules contain most of the rules you will need ever.

No factions really dominate. Pick the aesthetic you like and work from there. Ever tactic and unit has a hard and soft counter.

Changing warcasters changes how your army plays.

My only gripe is when you are the non-active player is that you have to take it. There is nothing you can do in response to the active player except track wounds and remove models.