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So, HELBRUTES. They've always been a bit rubbish, but I wonder if the nerf to Smash and the new vehicle rules have made them good enough for a competitive 7th Edition list, particularly if you use the Formation rules.

Here's a sample list with 9 Daemon Engines, using the Helfist Murderpack rules. All five Helbrutes are one unit, with a mix of weapons, and if they are Crazed they can choose the result. The Sorcerers are there to summon annoying distraction units.

Crimson Slaughter CAD
- Sorcerer, Lvl2, Spell Familiar [115]
- Sorcerer, Lvl2, Spell Familiar [115]

- 10 Cultists, Heavy Stubber [55]
- 10 Cultists, Heavy Stubber [55]
- 10 Cultists, Heavy Stubber [55]

- Heldrake, Baleflamer [170]
- Heldrake, Baleflamer [170]

- Forgefiend, Ectoplasma Cannons [175]
- Forgefiend, Ectoplasma Cannons [175]
- 3 Obliterators [210]

Hellfist Murderpack
- Helbrute, Power Fist, Reaper Autocannon [105]
- Helbrute, Power Fist, Reaper Autocannon [105]
- Helbrute, Thunder Hammer, Plasma Cannon [115]
- Helbrute, Thunder Hammer, Plasma Cannon [115]
- Helbrute Champion, Thunder Hammer, Power Scourge [115]

Any thoughts? My questions would be..

- Enough AT/AA?
- Is this the best load out for the Murderpack? Is it better to arm them all with dual-CCW and run every turn, or the same weapon, or what?
- What about Spawn to act as shields for the running Dreads?
- Is it a better idea to take the Mayhem Pack instead? 3 individual Deep Striking Dreadnoughts with IWND (so then all my vehicles would have this), all arriving at once. Or too random? The other two Helbrutes could be taken as Elites.

CURRENT LIST IDEA (above is the original post)

CAD - Crimson Slaughter
- Belakor [350]
- 12 Cultists [58]
- 12 Cultists [58]
- 12 Cultists [58]
- 12 Cultists [58]
- 2 Obliterators, MoN [152]
- 2 Obliterators, MoN [152]
- 1 Obliterators, MoN [76]
- Heldrake (Baleflamer) [170]
- Heldrake (Baleflamer) [170]

Formation - Hellfist Murderpack
- Helbrute Champion (Multimelta, Power Scourge) [110]
- Helbrute (Multimelta, Powerfist, Hvy Flamer) [115]
- Helbrute (Multimelta, Powerfist, Hvy Flamer) [115]
- Helbrute (Multimelta, Powerfist) [100]
- Helbrute (Multimelta, Thunder Hammer) [105]

Total : 1847

I really think Missile Launcher and TL Lascannon should be on a couple of your Helbrutes at least. Remember your champion can roll on the boon table from shooting other characters to death, not just defeating them in close combat...

*edit for typos, stupid iphone*

 Opera wrote:
I really think Missile Launcher and TL Lascannon should be on a couple of your Helbrutes at least. Remember your champion can roll on the boon table from shooting other characters to death, not just defeating them in close combat...

*edit for typos, stupid iphone*

Ooh I forgot that.

I've actually been wondering if it's better to arm them all the same. If I go with TL Las / ML then were assuming the pack will be moving 6" a turn and then firing. That might take a while to get to the enemy.

Is that better than the pack all running every turn and all having CCWs??

I imagined them as a running threat, trying to put pressure on the enemy to shoot them while the rest of the army causes havoc, but maybe they're better as a big shooty squad? Dunno.

Honestly I am not sure... Does anyone out there have experience fielding the murderpack?

I think having only 30 T3 6+ save Objective Scored Troops footslogging is going to make winning most games incredibly difficult, and realistically two ML2 Sorcerers aren't going to be summoning much successfully.

I think your list in general is cool but too weak on troops. I'd drop one Forgefiend, add a 3rd cannon to the remaning one. This frees up 150p which you can use to swap one cultist squad for a kitted out CSM squad in a rhino. And you only loose 1 ectoplasma cannon compared with now.

My Helbrute has been good so far in 7th. And I think your pack has a good loadout, 4 S7 weapons work nicely together to be able to take out most targets, and cause pinning tests. I'd keep the champ as he is, with twin cc weapons. Give it a try and see how it goes!

Godless-Mimicry wrote:I think having only 30 T3 6+ save Objective Scored Troops footslogging is going to make winning most games incredibly difficult, and realistically two ML2 Sorcerers aren't going to be summoning much successfully.

Interesting - why don't you think they'll be summoning much? They only really need to get a Troops squad to appear each turn, which they should manage between them? If they're a bit useless, maybe I should swap one for a Lord (to get NM as Troops) or a Warpsmith (for fixing stuff)??

westiebestie wrote:I think your list in general is cool but too weak on troops. I'd drop one Forgefiend, add a 3rd cannon to the remaning one. This frees up 150p which you can use to swap one cultist squad for a kitted out CSM squad in a rhino. And you only loose 1 ectoplasma cannon compared with now.

My Helbrute has been good so far in 7th. And I think your pack has a good loadout, 4 S7 weapons work nicely together to be able to take out most targets, and cause pinning tests. I'd keep the champ as he is, with twin cc weapons. Give it a try and see how it goes!

I like the swap of Forgefiend idea. Will attempt to rejig the list like that and repost.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
I think having only 30 T3 6+ save Objective Scored Troops footslogging is going to make winning most games incredibly difficult, and realistically two ML2 Sorcerers aren't going to be summoning much successfully.

I agree. U need ways to get more warp charges.

I'd be tempted to get belakor for invisible hellbrute goodness,.

individual hellbrutes seem alright, but the mauler and forge fiends are just better.

A little bit of summoning is OK, with sorcerors you can probably manage 5/6 dice per summon. however they WILL DIE. But if they can produce some heralds or turn into a lord of change, then that's ok.

Thanks for all the suggestions, guys. I've been thinking how to maximise the damage the Dreads can cause and still get enough troops, it's just that you start to run out of points for MOAR GUNS. Some options:

1: This has plenty of staying power from the Troops, and protects the Dreads with a shield of Spawn, but I lose all my long ranged guys...

- Chaos Lord (MoS, Bike, Power Lance, Sigil of Corruption) [140]
- 12 Noise Marines (Icon of Excess, 2 Blastmasters, 8 Soninc Blasters, Champion with Doom Siren) [343]
- 12 Noise Marines (Icon of Excess, 2 Blastmasters, 8 Soninc Blasters, Champion with CombiPlasma) [338]
- 5 Chaos Spawn (MoS) [165]
- Heldrake (Baleflamer) [170]
- Heldrake (Baleflamer) [170]
- Murderpack Helbrute (Multimelta, Thunderhammer) [105]
- Murderpack Helbrute (Multimelta, Power Scourge) [110]
- Murderpack Helbrute (Multimelta, Power Fist) [100]
- Murderpack Helbrute (Multimelta, Power Fist) [100]
- Murderpack Helbrute (Multimelta, Power Fist) [100]

Total - 1846

2: If I only take one of the Noise Marine squads, I can afford more GUNS.

- Chaos Lord (MoS, Bike, Power Lance, Sigil of Corruption) [140]
- 12 Noise Marines (Icon of Excess, 2 Blastmasters, 8 Soninc Blasters, Champion with Doom Siren) [343]
- 12 Cultists (Hvy Stubber) [63]
- 12 Cultists (Hvy Stubber) [63]
- 5 Chaos Spawn (MoS) [165]
- Heldrake (Baleflamer) [170]
- Heldrake (Baleflamer) [170]
- 3 Obliterators [210]
- Murderpack Helbrute (Multimelta, Thunderhammer) [105]
- Murderpack Helbrute (Multimelta, Power Scourge) [110]
- Murderpack Helbrute (Multimelta, Power Fist) [100]
- Murderpack Helbrute (Multimelta, Power Fist) [100]
- Murderpack Helbrute (Multimelta, Power Fist) [100]

Total - 1844

Any better? Absolutely no psychic support, which is a bit annoying... :(

I'd add 1 hellbrute and field 2 mayhem packs. I agree 100% that the hellbrutes got a lot better in 7th. They are tougher to kill and are a threat that you need to deal with.

However moving 6" is going to be their downfall, the need to be faster. Besides that they may get a 1 result on a D3 and lose that turns movement as well as maybe getting one immobilized and leaving him to die as the rest of the unit move.

Mayhem pack solves these problems, 1 single reserve roll for 3 independent hellbrutes that deepstrike a turn away from an enemy unit and they have IWND as well, they are by far the best formation out of the book.

My 2 cents. I'm liking hellbrutes so far in 7th. I've even seen a dude with 1 to just mess with things and while it didn't earn it's points back, it did provide an annoyance to make up for it.

Sorc with daemonology is a terrible idea. There's far more useful powers in telepathy and TK and these powers won't kill your psyche turn 2. Also if you don't use daemonology your problem with too few warp charges isn't as much of a problem anymore. I've tried using it a couple times and it's just lack luster on anything that's not a daemon.

On that note, a prince with MoT sitting in the back being used to summon is something I do like. He's 4++ so no real need for power armor and all you need to do is pump out troops and he'll do his job.

I think you're missing the greatest strength of the murder pack: its a single unit

If you're not blessing them with something, rerolling hits, ignore cover, shrouding, invisibility, endurance, I feel you're really wasting their biggest strength


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also really consider leaving 2 or 3 of the brutes naked. MM and Power fist is really a very good loadout as it is.

 Sothas wrote:


On that note, a prince with MoT sitting in the back being used to summon is something I do like. He's 4++ so no real need for power armor and all you need to do is pump out troops and he'll do his job.

There are no DP with MoT, only DP with DoT, which as in the daemon codex gives them re-roll on 1's only. What you want for this is a a DoN one hiding behind a ruin for the 2+ cover, or with wings so that he can jink and also get 2+ cover

An easy way to kit them is all MMs with a power scourge or two, a thunder hammer, and a power fist mounted flamer or two, like this:

Helbrute Champion- Multi-Melta, Thunder Hammer
Helbrute- Multi-Melta, Power Scourge
Helbrute- Multi-Melta, Power Scourge
Helbrute- Multi-Melta, Power Fist w/ Heavy Flamer
Helbrute- Multi-Melta, Power Fist w/ Heavy Flamer

This team hunts MCs, Vehciles, and transports. Power Scourges and Thunder Hammer is for disabling MCs, Heavy Flamers are for roasting transport units that you pop the boxes of.
I like it because it gives something as enormous as the murderpack some focus rather than just giving it this and that and hoping it works just because it costs so much

I've been using the Helbrutes lately with Maulerfiends and Invisibility and buff casting Sorcerers and Daemon Princes.

Works like a charm, I do the above load out as well most of the time.

Although I usually go with 5 Autocannons in order to get 10 shots out.

I agree with the comments on psykers. If this is a TAC, tourney, or league list, you either go no psykers or as many as you can get. Reason being if you go just a few you will run into psyker heavy armies and your investment is a waste as they can potentially shut you down if you only have a few WC.

I like in your second list you gave all the muderpack the same gun, so their firing on something is focused. I still think murderpack is best at assault since you can potentially multi assault things where you dont get split fire and are spending all your time shooting the same target. However 5 MM to something hurts it

I like your second list better, only thing I would consider changing is splitting the oblits into units of 1 each since you have no other heavy support, and splitting the noise marines into 2 squads of 6. If you play a lot of victory points tho maybe not the best idea.

here's a suggestion for a psyker list with helbrutes that goes along the idea of yours. I am assuming no detachment restrictions as per the normal RAW.

CAD

HQ
Sorcerer, MoT, ML2 AoDG, Spell familiar -130
Sorcerer, MoT, ML2 AoDG, Spell familiar -130

Troops
Thousand Sons squad, 4 rubrics & 1 asp sorc -150
Rhino -35

Thousand Sons squad, 4 rubrics & 1 asp sorc -150
Rhino -35

Fast
Heldrake -170
Heldrake -170

Allied Detachment
Herald of Tzeenetch, ML2 -70

20x Horrors -180

Formation- Mayhem pack - 315
2x helbrutes with MM/Pfist
1x helbrute with MM/pfist & heavy flamer

Formation- Mayhem pack - 315
2x helbrutes with MM/Pfist
1x helbrute with MM/pfist & heavy flamer

total = 1850

between the 2 sorceror lords, the aspiring sorcerers, the herald and the horror you generate 11 WC (+d6) a turn.

Lord Yayula wrote:I'd add 1 hellbrute and field 2 mayhem packs. I agree 100% that the hellbrutes got a lot better in 7th. They are tougher to kill and are a threat that you need to deal with.
However moving 6" is going to be their downfall, the need to be faster. Besides that they may get a 1 result on a D3 and lose that turns movement as well as maybe getting one immobilized and leaving him to die as the rest of the unit move.

Gah - I forgot to mention - I'm off to a tournament with a 2 detachment restriction! I love the idea of two Mayhem Packs, but I can only take one apart from my CAD :(

Also, the Murder Pack lets you choose the result on the Crazed table as long as the champion is alive, so no chance of 1s if I don't want them!!

changerofways wrote:I think you're missing the greatest strength of the murder pack: its a single unit. If you're not blessing them with something, rerolling hits, ignore cover, shrouding, invisibility, endurance, I feel you're really wasting their biggest strength

Can't believe I didn't think of this. Oh well. Better put the Psyker back in. But how to fit him???!!!

changerofways wrote:An easy way to kit them is all MMs with a power scourge or two, a thunder hammer, and a power fist mounted flamer or two, like this:

Helbrute Champion- Multi-Melta, Thunder Hammer
Helbrute- Multi-Melta, Power Scourge
Helbrute- Multi-Melta, Power Scourge
Helbrute- Multi-Melta, Power Fist w/ Heavy Flamer
Helbrute- Multi-Melta, Power Fist w/ Heavy Flamer

This team hunts MCs, Vehciles, and transports. Power Scourges and Thunder Hammer is for disabling MCs, Heavy Flamers are for roasting transport units that you pop the boxes of.
I like it because it gives something as enormous as the murderpack some focus rather than just giving it this and that and hoping it works just because it costs so much

Good idea again. Will incorporate this into the next version of the list...

blaktoof wrote:I agree with the comments on psykers. If this is a TAC, tourney, or league list, you either go no psykers or as many as you can get. Reason being if you go just a few you will run into psyker heavy armies and your investment is a waste as they can potentially shut you down if you only have a few WC.

I like in your second list you gave all the muderpack the same gun, so their firing on something is focused. I still think murderpack is best at assault since you can potentially multi assault things where you dont get split fire and are spending all your time shooting the same target. However 5 MM to something hurts it

I like your second list better, only thing I would consider changing is splitting the oblits into units of 1 each since you have no other heavy support, and splitting the noise marines into 2 squads of 6. If you play a lot of victory points tho maybe not the best idea.

Thanks for the comments! Again, with the list, I forgot to mention that I'm limited to two detachments, so the fun allied Daemons isn't going to work. I'm attempting to make a decent list with just the CSM Codex and a Helbrute Formation javascript:emoticon('');

The psyker thing is part of my issue. If I take enough to be able to buff the big Helbrute unit, then I spend so many points I'd have to drop something else big. The spawn screen is really useful, but maybe I have to owe the oblits or the NM units? Or swap out the Lord for Sorcerers again, but then I'd be losing the option of NMs as troops.

Good idea with the Obliterator splitting. The reason for keeping the NMs as one big squad was to take advantage of the Icon. I'm not sure the Icon is worth it in 6-man squads??

I understand your reasoning for keeping the noise marines as 1 big squad.

You could do your second list and and just have the noise marines as elites, as you have two cultist troops. Of course they lose OS though which is a little painful.

I don't think its as important that you buff the murderpack with psychic powers as many people are making it out to be.

With access to a chaos discipline, biomancy, telepathy, and pyrokinesis there are about 2 buffs total that you can get that even affect vehicles. Telepathy of course has shrouding and invisibility, nothing in biomancy benefits them in any way, and Pyromancy has fire shields. None of the chaos powers will benefit them. Chaos doesn't -normally- get access to divination, or TK.

The odds of getting invisibility on a ML2 psyker are as follows:

1/6+((1-1/5)*(1/5)) So 1 in 6 chance, and you have a second power generated, essentially a reroll, and you dont get duplicate powers so 1 in 5 chance, this gives you a 32% chance per psyker to get invisibility.

If you take two psykers that are ML 2 the odds become

32/100+((1-32/100)*(32/100) or ~53 %

so even at 2 ML 2 psykers you are looking at only a 50/50 shot to get the power you are fishing for. Of course when you consider that you are also possibly getting shrouded, or bumping up to ML3 the chance of getting either of those increases.

ML 3 chance would be:

1/6+[((1-1/5)*(1/5))+(1-1/4)*(1/4))] ~51%

if you had 2 ML 3 psykers

51/100+((1-51/100)*(51/100)) ~76%

So even with 2 ML 3 psykers we cant guarantee getting invis, however we can pretty much guarantee getting either invis or shrouding.

Of course the other powers you get will be useful, they just wont really affect the muderpack.

TLDR- theres not much of a point of getting a psyker solely to buff the muderpack


However given the tournament restrictions you listed even with only a few psykers, not sure what your meta is, but only GK/Nids/most eldar builds/most daemon builds will be putting a lot of WC dice out. Around here 3 of those make up most of the non SM armies (SMs being about 50-75% at any tournament ive been to here in my meta)

my list suggestion, considering 2 Detachment limit

Combined Arms Detachment

HQ

-Sorcerer ( ML2, MoS, Steed of Slaanesh, AoDG) [135]

Troops

-12 Cultists (Hvy stubber) [63]
-12 Cultists (Hvy Stubber) [63]
-12 Chaos Space Marines (12x MoS, 2 Plasma guns, Icon of excess, asp-combi flamer) [260]
-dt Rhino (+combi bolter, havoc Launcher) [52]

Fast

-Heldrake [170]
-Heldrake [170]

Heavy

-2x obliterators [140]
-1x obliterator [70]
-5x Havocs (4 plasma guns, asp champ has combi plasma) [145]

Formation

Helbrute Murderpack [575]
1x Reaper Autocannon & power scourge - character
1x Reaper Autocannon & Thunder hammer
1x Reaper Autocannon & Powerfist w/ heavy flamer
1x Reaper Autocannon & Missile Launcher
1x Reaper Autocanon & Missile Launcher

total- 1843

Thoughts on how list would work- The murderpack was given reapers so they can start shooting turn 1. This unit puts out 10 str7 AP 4 shots that are twin linked plus the two str 8 Missile shots a turn. The loss of powerfist on two models isn't so bad since the first two-three turns you aren't seeing assault anyways and the two Reaper/missile helbrutes are still doing a Str 6 Hammer of wrath hits+3 str 6 hits on the charge. Yes MM are better than reapers, but if you are starting a min of 24" from your target you may not be firing for a turn or two with the MM, MM is better on the mayhem pack since they can DS.

The lord has a steed, and goes with the havocs, they can outflank with acute senses from lord, with the plasma on the turn they arrive they can drop 5 plasma shots at a target within 24" or 10 at a target within 12".

The chaos space marines are similar to your noise marines, they don't ignore cover, but put out about the same fire power, the rhino could be used to screen them or the helbrutes some, and puts out a decent amount of short ranged anti infantry.

Not sure what kind of armies you run int, I run into a lot of static gunline stuff so this is built with that in mind, lots of deepstrike/outflank disruption elements.

If you don't like the havocs you can switch them to 2 more obliterators, and change the HQ to Chaos Lord (MoS, Bike, Power Lance, Sigil of Corruption) [140]

another list idea is mayhem pack with 2x MM/pfist with Hvy flamer, 1x MM/p scourge then pick up 2 lone helbrutes with reapers/missile launcher that start on the table from elites. Same amount of helbrutes, you get to DS 3 though.

Seriously, Murder Packs w/ Invisibility or Shrouding are super awesome and you should be taking them.

blaktoof wrote:
Thoughts on how list would work- The murderpack was given reapers so they can start shooting turn 1. This unit puts out 10 str7 AP 4 shots that are twin linked plus the two str 8 Missile shots a turn. The loss of powerfist on two models isn't so bad since the first two-three turns you aren't seeing assault anyways and the two Reaper/missile helbrutes are still doing a Str 6 Hammer of wrath hits+3 str 6 hits on the charge. Yes MM are better than reapers, but if you are starting a min of 24" from your target you may not be firing for a turn or two with the MM, MM is better on the mayhem pack since they can DS.

The lord has a steed, and goes with the havocs, they can outflank with acute senses from lord, with the plasma on the turn they arrive they can drop 5 plasma shots at a target within 24" or 10 at a target within 12".

The chaos space marines are similar to your noise marines, they don't ignore cover, but put out about the same fire power, the rhino could be used to screen them or the helbrutes some, and puts out a decent amount of short ranged anti infantry.

Not sure what kind of armies you run int, I run into a lot of static gunline stuff so this is built with that in mind, lots of deepstrike/outflank disruption elements.

If you don't like the havocs you can switch them to 2 more obliterators, and change the HQ to Chaos Lord (MoS, Bike, Power Lance, Sigil of Corruption) [140]

Aha - I was wondering what the Steed was for!

Good list. I like the idea of the Reapers, but how effective is this when running? I was kinda thinking that the best use of the Murderpack was to constantly run forward serving as a massive distraction and aiming for a big combat somewhere (Hence screening with Spawn). Are you thinking of them more as a gun platform?

Also, do you not think the Sorcerer will suffer exactly what is warned against above - that since he's the only Psyker he'll just get shut down...?

Definitely a better list than mine, though. I would probably swap for a Bike Lord and then swap the main CSM unit for NMs again

I had another go at getting a reliable buff machine in there and tried to include Belakor - what about THIS? I've had to drop down to Culitsts-only as troops, but I can get loads of them. If I lost the lone obliterator I could probably tool up the Helbrutes with Reapers and add the third Ectoplasma to the Forgefiend...?

- Belakor [350]
- 12 Cultists (Hvy Stubber) [63]
- 12 Cultists (Hvy Stubber) [63]
- 12 Cultists (Hvy Stubber) [63]
- 12 Cultists (Hvy Stubber) [63]
- 2 Obliterators [140]
- 1 Obliterator [70]
- Forgefiend (Ectoplasma Cannons) [175]
- Heldrake (Baleflamer) [170]
- Heldrake (Baleflamer) [170]
- Helbrute (Multimelta, Powerfist) [100]
- Helbrute (Multimelta, Powerfist) [100]
- Helbrute (Multimelta, Thunder Hammer) [105]
- Helbrute (Multimelta, Thunder Hammer) [105]
- Helbrute (Multimelta, Power Scourge) [110]

Total [1847]

My only worry is that it's a bit limited tactically, where your list has a few tricks to keep opponents guessing (Outflanking Plasma, etc). This is basically Invisible Dreadnoughts running forwards with Belakor keeping to cover nearby until there's a big threat that needs to be taken out. Cultists would probably come in from reserve or spend the whole game gone to ground (maybe I don't need those stubbers?). Heldrakes, Forgefiend and Oblits are then my firepower.. :/

Actually, slight update based on recommendations. I'm really torn between the Multimeltas and the Reapers. But five multimeltas has the potential to deal with big things like Knights so much better. I've also lost the Hvy Stubbers for some MoN on the Oblits, and swapped Forgefiend for more Oblits for flexibility...

CAD - Crimson Slaughter
- Belakor [350]
- 12 Cultists [58]
- 12 Cultists [58]
- 12 Cultists [58]
- 12 Cultists [58]
- 2 Obliterators, MoN [152]
- 2 Obliterators, MoN [152]
- 1 Obliterators, MoN [76]
- Heldrake (Baleflamer) [170]
- Heldrake (Baleflamer) [170]

Formation - Hellfist Murderpack
- Helbrute Champion (Multimelta, Power Scourge) [110]
- Helbrute (Multimelta, Powerfist, Hvy Flamer) [115]
- Helbrute (Multimelta, Powerfist, Hvy Flamer) [115]
- Helbrute (Multimelta, Powerfist) [100]
- Helbrute (Multimelta, Thunder Hammer) [105]

Total : 1847

I still think the other list is more tactically flexible, but not sure which one is actually better!!

I think your list with forgefiend has more model variety, but I think the second list has more tactical options.

Being able to DS 3 units of oblits is good, 2 is also good 3 just lets you split up more or saturate a target more.

Heavy flamers on some of the helbrutes lets you deal with models in cover a little, and adds charge deterrent. Anyone charging your helbrutes now has to face overwatch of whatever you get lucky 6s with plus 2d3 str5 ap 4 hits which could deter some MSU squad from rushing you with melta bombs/haywire.

Iám making this list atm I haven't tried it yet but really looking forward to see the Helbrutes in action:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/604020.page

 Lord Yayula wrote:

 Sothas wrote:


On that note, a prince with MoT sitting in the back being used to summon is something I do like. He's 4++ so no real need for power armor and all you need to do is pump out troops and he'll do his job.

There are no DP with MoT, only DP with DoT, which as in the daemon codex gives them re-roll on 1's only. What you want for this is a a DoN one hiding behind a ruin for the 2+ cover, or with wings so that he can jink and also get 2+ cover

A daemon prince can swoop in the movement phase and summon daemons in the psychic phase?

 Filch wrote:

 Lord Yayula wrote:

 Sothas wrote:


On that note, a prince with MoT sitting in the back being used to summon is something I do like. He's 4++ so no real need for power armor and all you need to do is pump out troops and he'll do his job.

There are no DP with MoT, only DP with DoT, which as in the daemon codex gives them re-roll on 1's only. What you want for this is a a DoN one hiding behind a ruin for the 2+ cover, or with wings so that he can jink and also get 2+ cover

A daemon prince can swoop in the movement phase and summon daemons in the psychic phase?

Yup, I think so. Though since daemon allies aren't going to be possible in this tournament, I honk we've moved onto the idea that Belakor is there to cast invisibility on the Dreads. If he manages to save enough dice for a psychic shriek or two, that would be nice...