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Hello everybody,

I just recently got a dwarf army given to me that is very sizable but do not know enough about this game yet to form a balance TAC army for a tournament tomorrow morning (last minute I know).

What I have is(all approximate numbers):

120 warriors with hand weapons and shields
30-40 quarrelers (cross bow warriors) can be with shields or without
38-40 Thunderers can be with shields or without
30 warriors with great weapons
20 long beards
20-35 iron breakers
20 miners
3 cannons
2 bolt throwers
2 grudge throwers
2 Organ Guns

Rune priest with anvil
2-3 master engineers
some standard bearers

Please help me develop a TAC competitive list for a friendly tournament that. I'm not expecting to win but I want to put up a good fight for some good games. I am not going to buy new models for this army at this time, I am only willing to sue what I have. I'm sure I have more than what is listed however I have not been able to sort through everything yet as it came in 5 boxes with other warhammer stuff.

thank you in advance for any help you can provide.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
I also forgot to mention that that army size is 2800 points.

How many points is the tournament? Is the runesmith model attached to the anvil, or can you field the model on its own? Do you prefer a shooty or in your face type army?

Oops, just noticed the edit. Though, the rest of the questions remain. You have a lot of potential options in the models you have, so preferred play style will dictate the army list.

Saldiven wrote:
How many points is the tournament? Is the runesmith model attached to the anvil, or can you field the model on its own? Do you prefer a shooty or in your face type army?

2800 points
not really sure what i prefer as I have only played 1 game and it was more half and half but i enjoyed shooting the enemy up before it made it to me to weaken them.
Runelord is with the anvil.

Hrm. Does the tournament allow any degree of proxies? Maybe you could use the Engineers as regular Runsemiths.

I don't have the book handy, but you could run something like this if you like shootiness:

Two runesmiths, one is general. Give them both dispel runes (follow the rune rules correctly when doing this).
One BSB, probably with the Grungni rune to give some protection from enemy shooting.

Fill Core with Quarrellers with Great Weapons and shield. Make two units of 20. If you need to fill more Core, take as few Thunderers as you need to meet 25%.

In Special, use the GW Warriors as Hammerers.
Add in two cannons and two stone throwers, runed up however you like.

In Rare, take the two Organ Guns, runed up however you like.

That should fill up a good percentage of your 2800 points. I don't have my book here at work, so can't write an exact list.

Also, is there any chance at all that you could borrow a few Gyrocopters from a friend? If you wanna go shooty, having the ability to redirect charges such that you can delay your enemy from getting into your lines as long as possible is really important. Also, remember that your shooting almost all has 30" range or more, so don't feel the need to deploy all the way at the edge of your deployment zone; make your opponent work his way across the field before you counter charge with the Hammerers.

Awesome, thank you.

I don't have any friends that play dwarves. I think there is only like 3 dwarf players in my entire region.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
How does the Gyrocopters redirect charges? I am very new to this game and don't know my codex as well as I should.

The Gyrocopter is the only really fast moving unit in the army book.

"Redirecting" charges is kind of an art form. The idea is that you use a small, inexpensive, and mobile unit to move in front of an opponent's unit such that a successful charge and overrun will result in that opponent's unit being pulled in a direction that is inconvenient for that opponent. I don't have anything here at work to use to create diagrams, but the idea is to prevent the opponent from merely making full, normal march moves straight at you until they're close enough to charge, especially if you're playing a shooting army.

With well planned redirection, an opponent that might take 2-3 turns before being able to charge, might take 3-4 or even longer depending on deployment and such. Every additional turn you have of shooting makes it more likely you'll win combat before the opponent's depleted forces make it to your lines.

A few general points:

- the battle standard bearer: give him the Master Rune of Grungi. A 4+ Ward save--always a good idea on your BSB--normally runs you 45pts. So, for 15pts more, you get a 5+ against shooting and such in a bubble around him? Stupid-good.

- Dwarfs need to be at least S4 before they're reliable in combat. That means regular Warriors always go with great weapons, as do Quarrelers.
Longbeards can go either way.

- Quarrelers are good. Given great weapons, they're fantastic.
Given shields, they can win just about any shoot-out.

- Hammerers pack quite a punch, but I think their biggest strength is that 75pt banner limit. Valaya or Groth One-Eye, all the way!

- Miners are amazing. A unit of 10 will take out enemy war machines and the like no problem. A unit of 15-20 can threaten a flank or rear. A unit of 30...well, yeah.

- Cannons need Forging. It's so cheap and it improves their performance so much.

- Grudge Throwers don't need Penetration so much anymore. 40pts for S4(10) is quite an investment.

- everyone swears up and down by Organ Guns. And, hey, one of those babies (with Forging and Accuracy, if you can swing it) on your flank is devastating.
But don't ignore the Flame Cannon, either. That thing is sick.

- similar to the Organ Gun in performance are Irondrakes. More points/shot, but less points/wound. Shorter range, but Quick to Fire and Flaming, too.
Two Runes of Slowness on 15 of these guys will ruin quite a few units.

- Gyrocopters are cheap, plentiful, and versatile. Take two. Take three. Flee from charges and lay down templates. These guys are really the only way the Dwarf book can break out of it's "sit there and shoot" playstyle.

Warpsolution wrote:
A few general points:

- the battle standard bearer: give him the Master Rune of Grungi. A 4+ Ward save--always a good idea on your BSB--normally runs you 45pts. So, for 15pts more, you get a 5+ against shooting and such in a bubble around him? Stupid-good.

- Dwarfs need to be at least S4 before they're reliable in combat. That means regular Warriors always go with great weapons, as do Quarrelers.
Longbeards can go either way.

- Quarrelers are good. Given great weapons, they're fantastic.
Given shields, they can win just about any shoot-out.

- Hammerers pack quite a punch, but I think their biggest strength is that 75pt banner limit. Valaya or Groth One-Eye, all the way!

- Miners are amazing. A unit of 10 will take out enemy war machines and the like no problem. A unit of 15-20 can threaten a flank or rear. A unit of 30...well, yeah.

- Cannons need Forging. It's so cheap and it improves their performance so much.

- Grudge Throwers don't need Penetration so much anymore. 40pts for S4(10) is quite an investment.

- everyone swears up and down by Organ Guns. And, hey, one of those babies (with Forging and Accuracy, if you can swing it) on your flank is devastating.
But don't ignore the Flame Cannon, either. That thing is sick.

- similar to the Organ Gun in performance are Irondrakes. More points/shot, but less points/wound. Shorter range, but Quick to Fire and Flaming, too.
Two Runes of Slowness on 15 of these guys will ruin quite a few units.

- Gyrocopters are cheap, plentiful, and versatile. Take two. Take three. Flee from charges and lay down templates. These guys are really the only way the Dwarf book can break out of it's "sit there and shoot" playstyle.

thank you so much for this advice as I have learn so much from loosing every game on Saturday and reading this that will help me devastate the others now. I was reading the codex last night and was thinking irondrakes are awesome and that they would be a worth while investment when I do buy more stuff for my dwarves. i was trying to get away without buying anything for them as i am so very heavily invested in 40k and was trying to avoid that with fantasy. but you mention the irondrakes, flame cannon and gyro copters all of which I don't have.

What about Ironbreakers?

I actually like Ironbreakers, but most people prefer for the offensive output of Hammerers in the Special section.

If you're running an offensive, melee style list, and you feel that you have enough offensive output elsewhere in your list, a unit of Ironbreakers isn't a bad idea. It can be something that you use as an "anvil" to hold up an opponent's strong attack unit long enough to hit it in the flanks with your own offensive units.

Ironbreakers are fantastic. A unit of 30 will grind down your foe for ever.
...a unit of 15, though, can absorb the charge of a unit worth far, far more points than itself. Make 'em Stubborn (with Stoicism or One-Eye), and you've got a horrifically obnoxious little unit.

The main problem I have with Ironbreakers, though, is their competition. Hammerers are great if you can get them into a fight where they won't die in droves, but, again, their real strength comes from that 75pt banner.
So if Grungi goes to your BSB, and One-Eye or Valaya goes to your Hammerers...finding the points for those Ironbreakers can be a real challenge.
Especially when you consider that, for 1pt less, you can get a Core unit with -1 armour, -1 parry, and Immune to Psychology in the form of Longbeards with shields.

Irondrakes are awesome. I don't think their necessary, but they are indeed wicked-good. Like I said above, they're actually quite comparable to the Organ Gun in function. The Trollhammer Torpedo widens the number of units you can threaten, and a brace of pistols effectively gives the whole unit +1 to shoot during a Stand and Shoot! reaction (since you only shoot when all of the models are in range, and waiting until the pistols can shoot means the rest of the unit will be a short range).
My suggestion? Make a few of the models in the box as Irondrakes and a few as Ironbreakers. It'll let you bulk out a unit by sprinkling in models from the other unit, and gives it a more active look.

Gyrocopters? Yeah. Get them. Without those guys, you're just playing a slightly updated version of the old book, which was never terrible, never awesome, and always BOOORING.

With the Flame Cannon, I wouldn't buy that old and expensive pewter thing.
I saw a guy who simply took the dragon skull bit from the Giant kit and affixed it to a cannon with some jewelry chain. It looked good, and was not only a simple conversion, but a pretty obvious one, too.

Pistols won't help Irondrakes S&S at short range.

The drake gun has a range of 18"; short range is 9".

Pistols have a 12" range.

So, S&S reactions would be conducted at an effective range of 12".

You'd need a character with a ranged weapon with a range of 9" or less to make use of that rule interaction.

I have heard from some players in my local meta that grudge throwers are great? I have not had any luck in the 2 games I used these things as in 1 game it never hit anything and the other it blew itself up on turn 2.

Matt2429 wrote:
I have heard from some players in my local meta that grudge throwers are great? I have not had any luck in the 2 games I used these things as in 1 game it never hit anything and the other it blew itself up on turn 2.

Are you giving them the runes to reroll scatters? That helps immensely.

I did, maybe im just having bad luck with dice.

But the grudge thrower are worth it in your opinion?

Matt2429 wrote:
I did, maybe im just having bad luck with dice.

But the grudge thrower are worth it in your opinion?

I'm not a dwarf expert by any means, but every time I've seen them in action they've been a threat. My coworker is ruthless with the damned things.

Saldiven wrote:
Pistols have a 12" range.

What? I was told they had a 6" range. Right before my unit was shot, shot again as it failed a charge, shot again, and then shot again when it completed it's charge. Good to know.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Matt2429 wrote:
But the grudge thrower are worth it in your opinion?

Yes. The Grudge Thrower has:
- long range
- Indirect Fire
- a template
- S9 (D6 wounds)

It's the ultimate all-comers war machine, It won't decimate a horde like a flame cannon, or destroy monsters like a cannon, but it will help do both of those things. The only downside is it's minimum range.

so the consensus is take as much arty as you can fit into your list and then crap whatever is left with great weapon warriors and a battle standard Thrane with a rune smith.

Does this pretty much sum it up?

Ah. No. Maybe with the old book. But not this one.

There are a lot of good units in the new book besides Warriors with great weapons.
The most popular Core choice is Quarrelers with great weapons. Longbeards are awesome, too.

Hammerers, Miners, Ironbreakers, and Irondrakes are all good choices.

Gyrocopters are wicked-good.

Dwarf armies can get buy with few to no war machines, if they so choose. And they certainly don't need to max out on them. I'd actually strongly recommend not doing that.

so what would you suggest for a 2800 point Dwarf list. I have since ordered a box of iron drakes and 2 gyro copters

I have to agree that Grudge Throwers are a really good option. With Accuracy, they're fairly reliable. You don't absolutely have to take Penetration; S3 is enough to force your opponent to roll lots of saves, which is never a bad thing. Like Warpsolutions said, Cannons and Organ Guns are kind of specialist machines, while the Grudge Thrower is fairly decent at any use, just not really spectacular at any.

If you play in a seriously competitive area where High Elves show up, make sure to leave one 'Thrower without any runes to make that White Lions block with the BotWD surprised.

Anyway, at 2800 points, you'll almost certainly end up wanting one, maybe even two more Gyrocopters. Having lots of options for charge re-directing or charge-baiting to set up favorable combats for your less maneuverable blocks is always a good thing. On tope of that, sending a Steam Cannon shot down the flank of something like Witch Elves or the like is always very reliable.

You'll also be so happy with the Irondrakes that you'll probably end up ordering another box eventually.....

For the record, I think that the old Rune of Penetration was a good buy at 25pts. At 40, I'd point out that's half of another Grudge Thrower, right there.

At 2800, maybe something like this:

1 Thane + great weapon + Master Rune of Gromil + Rune of Warding X3 (146)
1 Thane + shield + battle standard + Master Rune of Grungi (153)
1 Runesmith + shield + Rune of Stone + Rune of Spellbreaking X2 + Rune of the Furnace (118)
1 Runesmith + shield + Rune of Stone + Rune of Spellbreaking +Rune of the Furnace (98)

30 Dwarf Warriors + great weapons + full command (330)
25 Quarrelers + great weapons + full command (380)

30 Hammerers + musician + standard + Master Rune of Valaya (510)
15 Miners (150)
1 Cannon + Rune of Forging + Rune of Burning (150)
1 Grudge Thrower + Rune of Accuracy (105)
1 Gryocopter + Vanguard (100)
1 Gryocopter (80)
1 Gryocopter (80)

20 Irondrakes + full command + Trollhammer Torpedo + Rune of Slowness X2 (400)

...I think that's 2,800, but I don't have the book on me.

Thank you for the advice.