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Hey Guys,

Working on a new army atm in WHFB, thinking dark elves cause they're so evil that they sound like fun. - Here's my list for a 2K force for all comers, any changes/thoughts?

Supreme Sorceress, lev 4, dispel scroll, amulet of pres (Lore of life I think to buff up the fragile Welves) 290
Death Hag, Witch brew, BSB140
10 Darkshards, shields, cmd160
30 Witch Elves, cmd, gleaming pennant 365
15 Executioners,cmd210
War Hyrda, fiery breath180
War Hyrda, fiery breath180
2 reaper bolt throwers 140
5 warlocks, master 135
5 Dark Riders, shields, cmd 115
Total: 1915

Not too sure what else to add/change, I know it's lacking a big block of Dreadspears or Corsairs but I just dig having so many Witch Elves.
FYI this is list is 100% untested so it's all theory atm.. just trying to work out that I want to run with before I buy everything..

Cheers!

This is a decent list, just a few suggestions:

Firstly, you've got 85 points left to spend!! You shouldn't be under the list size by five points, let alone eighty five! Those extra points could buy you another bolt thrower and another Darkshard.

Secondly, those Executioners are not going to do much at such a small size. You'll need to change your list around quite a bit to fit a big enough unit with the required support. I would recommend dropping them - along with one Hydra (which aren't fantastic) - and getting a unit of 20 or so Black Guard with musician, and the Razor Standard.

Thirdly, especially with the above change, this list is much better supported by Shadow Magic. Yes, the Witch Elves are fragile but Lore of Life only contains one spell to fix that (unless you run your Sorceress in the unit, which is a bad idea). Witch Elves also struggle to kill anything with high toughness, and that's where Shadow Magic comes in. Shadow works brilliantly supporting numerous, low strength attacks, such as those from Witch Elves and Crossbows.

Also, as more of a suggestion than a piece of advice, consider switching your BSB to a Master. Although you won't confer super frenzy to the Witch Elves, you do gain a BSB who is a lot more durable. It would also allow you to keep the Witch Elves in check easier, though, as mentioned, you lose out on the extra attacks. Your call, just some food for thought.

And finally, as some little nitpicks, drop all command but the musician on the Darkshards and the Dark Riders, and drop the master on the Warlocks, as they won't come in very useful. I'd also drop the Gleaming Pennant on the Witch Elves as, again, it's not very useful if you're putting your BSB in there (if you're not, then that's fine). The Banner of Swiftness is a good replacement. Any points saved could be used to flesh out that Darkshards squad, and make your Lvl4 a little safer.

Hope this helps, any questions, feel free to ask!

Thanks for the quick response mate! - Some great advice in there.

Yeh I was kind of unsure about how to spend the last 85 points so thought i'd just leave it out for now and see what the forum might suggest.

So I have re-jigged things a bit, kept some executioners since I love the models, also they can provide some additional armour piercing/MI killiness.

Supreme Sorceress, lev 4, dispel scroll, amulet of pres 290 (shadow, life i guess) - Also not too sure where she will go, maybe the Darkshards???
Master, amr of fortune, sea dragon cloak, enchanted shield, bsb 141 (joins the Black Guard)
23 black guard, full cmd, razor std 420
10 Darkshards, shields, msu, cmp 150
18 Witch Elves, msu, std, gleaming pennant 223
18 Executioners, msu, std 236
War Hyrda, fiery breath180
2 reaper bolt throwers 140
5 warlocks 125
5 Dark Riders, shields, msu 95
Total: 2000

What do we think now?

Those executioners are still not going to do anything. Either boost them to 30 or drop them. You can get the points by dropping the hydra. It does nothing anymore.

Mansfeild wrote:
Master, amr of fortune, sea dragon cloak, enchanted shield, bsb 141 (joins the Black Guard)

This guy is also illegal. He can't take 2 pieces of magic armour.

Heavy Armour, Sea Dragon Cloak, Sword of Might, Enchanted Shield, Dawnstone and the Battle Standard is a good build. Clocks in at 155points and gives you a re-rollable 1+ save and hits at S5.

Nice thanks mate, yeh that sounds like a nice build for the Master.

Ok so now i'm thinking Corsairs make a good base cost wise. Lots of attacks and a solid save for infantry. Boosted the Executioners a bit. Another bolt thrower. Zero hydras. Also added another Warlock unit in, thinking those guys could be really nasty but with 2 units, are the Darkriders necessary?

Revised list below.

Supreme Sorceress, lev 4, dispel scroll, amulet of pres 290 (shadow or life I guess)
Master, hvy amr, sea dragon cloak, enchanted shield, halberd, dawnstone, bsb 137 (joins the corsairs)
29 Corsairs, full cmd, xtra HW 351
10 Darkshards, shields, msu, cmp 150
18 Witch Elves, msu 208
24 Executioners, msu, std 308
3 reaper bolt throwers 210
5 warlocks 125
5 warlocks 125
5 Dark Riders, shields, msu 95
Total: 1999

Cheers for the input guys.

I think it's important to remember that, in many cases, you should go big or go home. That's certainly the case with Executioners, Corsairs and Witch Elves. It's much better to do fewer, larger units, than more numerous smaller units. I'd recommend dropping one of the three (probably Witch Elves or Corsairs) entirely and using the points to beef the other two up.

And yeah, Dark riders are great, I'd certainly keep them in. Personally, I always make sure I have two units of Warlocks before adding in Dark Riders, but they're certainly not a bad choice.

Right. Yes I think that might be a better idea, given how fragile elves are.. Im used to running Chaos Warriors.. I'll re-jig things a bit.

Actually, unless you're using a Cauldron, Witches work BETTER in several small units than in one big one. I've used units of ten with musicians as part of my chaff options for quite a while now. They're cheap enough to be expendable, enabling them to be used as portable cover for a bigger unit behind them or as a sacrifice to block a nasty unit I don't want to deal with this turn. And in close combat they do damage all out of proportion to their numbers against anything that doesn't have at least a 3+ save, enabling them to rip ranks off of bigger units with ease, and take out enemy chaff in my way without breaking stride. Thus do I call them my 'tirestrips' - they're like a speed bump but they'll do real damage to whatever runs over them.

If you want Executioners to shine, give them a Brewhag. If you want them to excel, add Tullaris. That many S6KB attacks shred most other units. But you'll have to be exquisitely careful in the chaff war, because if you don't keep their chaff away from it, this unit can easily be lead around by the nose for the whole game...

This is where the tirestrips come in handy. One deployed right on the line just in front of the T/B Executioner block and marching up right in front of it eliminates any need for frenzy checks from that block, shreds any chaff that gets through your primary chaff defenses, and can be thrown recklessly into battle a turn before the main block slams home. Being unarmored, they'll all die to whatever you need (or want) Executioners to deal with (and leave the entire frontage of the target unit clear for the Executioners to charge)... but they'll likely do more than their points worth in damage before going down.

Thanks Vulcan, some really good points. I like the Brewhag Executioners idea.. would be super brutal if used right, i'm going to have to think about things a bit more now.

What are peoples thoughts on the Kharibdyss? I see pretty mixed reviews.

Good for drawing cannon fire, not much else. T5 4+ save just isn't enough to keep it alive against determined shooting, or in close combat with most stuff you'd need S7 to deal with.

The best bet for ANY DE monster is to run a dedicated monster mash list. A dragon, a manticore, three hydras, two K-beasts... and your core Witches will be ignored and win the game for you.

 Vulcan wrote:
Good for drawing cannon fire, not much else. T5 4+ save just isn't enough to keep it alive against determined shooting, or in close combat with most stuff you'd need S7 to deal with.

The best bet for ANY DE monster is to run a dedicated monster mash list. A dragon, a manticore, three hydras, two K-beasts... and your core Witches will be ignored and win the game for you.

That's a monster mash? I have 8 monsters in my legal 2400 list.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 Vulcan wrote:
Good for drawing cannon fire, not much else. T5 4+ save just isn't enough to keep it alive against determined shooting, or in close combat with most stuff you'd need S7 to deal with.

The best bet for ANY DE monster is to run a dedicated monster mash list. A dragon, a manticore, three hydras, two K-beasts... and your core Witches will be ignored and win the game for you.

That's a monster mash? I have 8 monsters in my legal 2400 list.

I'll bite. I listed 7, what's the eighth?

 Vulcan wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 Vulcan wrote:
Good for drawing cannon fire, not much else. T5 4+ save just isn't enough to keep it alive against determined shooting, or in close combat with most stuff you'd need S7 to deal with.

The best bet for ANY DE monster is to run a dedicated monster mash list. A dragon, a manticore, three hydras, two K-beasts... and your core Witches will be ignored and win the game for you.

That's a monster mash? I have 8 monsters in my legal 2400 list.

I'll bite. I listed 7, what's the eighth?

2 High Beastmasters on Manticores.

2 Masters with full mundane kit on Manticores with Iron Hard Skin.

600 points of darkshards and dark riders.

2 Hydras.

2 Kharibbedforherpleasures.


I'm legitimately trying to fit in that third hydra, but it's physically impossible at 2400. At 2500, just drop the Iron hard skin from both hero manticores and boom, 9 monsters.

Fair 'nuff.

 Vulcan wrote:
Fair 'nuff.

More monsters = more thunderstomps. Which also means more likelihood of getting monsters into combat.

It works by shielding the hero manticores with the other manticores, and the k-beasts with the hydras.

Fair enough, well I think i'll stick with a couple of blocks at this point level. Maybe when I up the points to 2.4K i can look at splitting the Welves into speed hump units..

As for now, here's my latest:

Supreme Sorceress, lev 4, dispel scroll, amulet of pres 290 (shadow/life)
Master, hvy amr, sea dragon cloak, enchanted shield, swd might, dawnstone, BSB 155
Death Hag, witch brew 115
10 Darkshards, shields, msu, cmp 150
29 Witch Elves, full cmd, gleaming pennant 354
29 Executioners, full cmd 378
3 reaper bolt throwers 210
5 warlocks 125
5 warlocks 125
5 Dark Riders, shields, msu 95
Total: 1997

Think it's pretty well rounded for the points level.

Looks very good to me, nice work!

Have a play around with those lores though. Some people - like me - swear by Life if there are Executioners in your list, but other people still prefer using other lores like Shadow, especially if your list also includes units such as Witch Elves.

I think death is by far the best lore for the army. Regardless of the build, Death does something for you, as opposed to life, which works best on buses.

 thedarkavenger wrote:
I think death is by far the best lore for the army. Regardless of the build, Death does something for you, as opposed to life, which works best on buses.

This is also true. Death and even Heavens and Dark are good Lores that work with most lists.

 The Shadow wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:
I think death is by far the best lore for the army. Regardless of the build, Death does something for you, as opposed to life, which works best on buses.

This is also true. Death and even Heavens and Dark are good Lores that work with most lists.

Depends, I never recommend taking Dark on a level 4, as it has minimal synergy with the army beyond Doombolt, Word of Pain, and maybe PoD.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 The Shadow wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:
I think death is by far the best lore for the army. Regardless of the build, Death does something for you, as opposed to life, which works best on buses.

This is also true. Death and even Heavens and Dark are good Lores that work with most lists.

Depends, I never recommend taking Dark on a level 4, as it has minimal synergy with the army beyond Doombolt, Word of Pain, and maybe PoD.

Yeah, it's certainly not the first lore I'd take but has some good spells in, and is nice for a change. The only thing is, the way I see it, if you're taking a Lvl4 on Dark, most of the time you're better off just spending that little extra and getting Morathi.

 The Shadow wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 The Shadow wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:
I think death is by far the best lore for the army. Regardless of the build, Death does something for you, as opposed to life, which works best on buses.

This is also true. Death and even Heavens and Dark are good Lores that work with most lists.

Depends, I never recommend taking Dark on a level 4, as it has minimal synergy with the army beyond Doombolt, Word of Pain, and maybe PoD.

Yeah, it's certainly not the first lore I'd take but has some good spells in, and is nice for a change. The only thing is, the way I see it, if you're taking a Lvl4 on Dark, most of the time you're better off just spending that little extra and getting Morathi.

The same goes for if you're taking Death or Shadow.

And even then, Morathi's probably going to be taking one spell on Dark, so she can drop it to Doombolt. The rest're going to be on death/shadow.