Switch Theme:

Are Khador Jacks the worse out there?  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in us
Member of the Ethereal Council






Someone was telling me that Khador only has a few good jacks.
Is this true? I mean they said spriggan, Behemoth and Beast are the only good ones.

5000pts 6000pts 3000pts
 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

My impression of Khador is that they've good jacks ,but at the same time poor jack support. As a result they tend to only field a couple at any one time so you tend to see the heavies or "most statistically best for the meta" appear more than some of the others just because the choice is more restrictive.

A Blog in Miniature

3D Printing, hobbying and model fun! 
   
Made in pt
Tea-Kettle of Blood




 Overread wrote:
My impression of Khador is that they've good jacks ,but at the same time poor jack support. As a result they tend to only field a couple at any one time so you tend to see the heavies or "most statistically best for the meta" appear more than some of the others just because the choice is more restrictive.


This^^

Also, never discount the Devastator chassis. They are incredible pieces for scenario gameplay.
   
Made in ca
Buttons Should Be Brass, Not Gold!






Soviet Kanukistan

Khador warjacks suffer from a few major drawbacks.

1. The most crippling problem that Khador warjacks suffer is that Khadoran warcasters are all front-line types with the exception of the Old Witch. Even frail Lady-Z needs to be in the front lines. This means that their focus supply is doubly important as it is a primary means of not dying while in the front line. There are ways to mitigate this, as with everything, but most of the time, front line warcasters don't want to be running on empty focus. This means that the 2-3 focus that one might be handing out to warjacks could be the difference between life and death.

2. SPD4. This pretty much ensures that its going to have a hard time being where you need it to be. In a vacuum, it means you will be receiving the charge, instead of initiating it. There are ways to mitigate this of course - but this plays back into the first problem that Khadoran warcasters don't want to be giving out focus... SPD 4 pretty much necessitates that they run every turn they are not in melee. Melee... what about shooting you ask...

3. Non-existent RAT. Khador warjacks can't hit the broadside of a barn with shooting. They have a huge arsenal of template weapons to help mitigate this. Those that don't require a hefty focus allotment. Regardless of weapon type, they also pay handsomely for this in points cost. Outside of certain skew lists, one is unlikely to see any shooting Khador warjacks outside of Behemoth (mass shooty + AP fists), Spriggan (flares + reach) and Conquest (spend less focus, ultimate LOS blocker).

4. OK... So the warcasters are stingy... what about Jack Marshals/Journeymen? Khador has 3 options: MOW Kovnik who is durable, but also suffers from SPD4. Mechanics, who are not durable. That leaves the Koldun Lord - who admittedly, is pretty good, as he's got a magic shotgun and power booster and Malakov, who is admittedly awesome with warjacks as well. The problem is you have to give him a warjack now. Even with the cheap Juggernaut, that costs 9-10 points - enough for full winterguard infantry, UA and Joe or a unit of Black Dragon IFP. The infantry are self supporting and don't take a bite out of the warcaster's focus supply. They also don't lose a ton of combat potential if the jack marshal (or Malakov) is killed.

The above is why you typically only see Warcasters buy 1-2 warjack to take advantage of the jack points.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
PhantomViper wrote:
Also, never discount the Devastator chassis. They are incredible pieces for scenario gameplay.

YMMV... clever positioning will limit the amount that bulldoze can achieve.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/07/21 18:52:29


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




hotsauceman1 wrote:Someone was telling me that Khador only has a few good jacks.
Is this true? I mean they said spriggan, Behemoth and Beast are the only good ones.


Khador has plenty good jacks. They're just not great at *only* running jacks! and to be fair - that matches it's fluff. Khadors strength is it's infantry.

In terms of its jacks, They're simple but solid. I've ever regretted fielding a juggernaut. It's dirt cheap, isn't in any way flashy, has no tricks, but as a simple, solid beatstick, it's great. Kodiaks are great fun, and I've gotten great mileage out of twin kodiaks with butcher. The named jacks are all solid as well. The clam jacks are very useful in scenario play. Really, the only ones I'd genuinely see issues with are the destroyers and decimator - too pricey for what they give.

keezus wrote:

2. SPD4. This pretty much ensures that its going to have a hard time being where you need it to be. In a vacuum, it means you will be receiving the charge, instead of initiating it. There are ways to mitigate this of course - but this plays back into the first problem that Khadoran warcasters don't want to be giving out focus... SPD 4 pretty much necessitates that they run every turn they are not in melee. Melee... what about shooting you ask...
.


Disagree. for a slow faction, they have access to a huge amount of speed buffs, both with spells (boundless charge, escort, superiority etc) and feats (vlad, strakhov, etc)

keezus wrote:

3. Non-existent RAT. Khador warjacks can't hit the broadside of a barn with shooting. They have a huge arsenal of template weapons to help mitigate this. Those that don't require a hefty focus allotment. Regardless of weapon type, they also pay handsomely for this in points cost. Outside of certain skew lists, one is unlikely to see any shooting Khador warjacks outside of Behemoth (mass shooty + AP fists), Spriggan (flares + reach) and Conquest (spend less focus, ultimate LOS blocker).


Add black Ivan and the grolar to that list.


keezus wrote:
4. OK... So the warcasters are stingy... what about Jack Marshals/Journeymen? Khador has 3 options: MOW Kovnik who is durable, but also suffers from SPD4. Mechanics, who are not durable. That leaves the Koldun Lord - who admittedly, is pretty good, as he's got a magic shotgun and power booster and Malakov, who is admittedly awesome with warjacks as well. The problem is you have to give him a warjack now. Even with the cheap Juggernaut, that costs 9-10 points - enough for full winterguard infantry, UA and Joe or a unit of Black Dragon IFP. The infantry are self supporting and don't take a bite out of the warcaster's focus supply. They also don't lose a ton of combat potential if the jack marshal (or Malakov) is killed.
.


You miss Thor stein hammer and an avalancher. in fairness, jack marshals are a poor option in mk2.

I'm seeing a lot of talk of Malakov these days. He's a solid option for getting a jack on the field with excellent options. Fine, you choose him or infantry, but there is a lot of infantry hate out tere. I wouldn't simply dismiss him and a jack in favour of infantry...

keezus wrote:
YMMV... clever positioning will limit the amount that bulldoze can achieve.


Arm 25 and 'let it rain' are both very potent tools too.



greatest band in the universe: machine supremacy

"Punch your fist in the air and hold your Gameboy aloft like the warrior you are" 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





IL

It's been a while since I played so some stuff may have changed in that time but before I parted with my collection I primarily played Khador. I used Karchev a lot as he had some great movement buffs with his tow ability, however the downside to that is Khador casters don't have a large focus pool to start with and while there are movement buffs they are primarily focus driven and most of their casters have a very limited pool compared to other factions. Other factions typically don't have to spend focus to offset movement, so in addition to have a couple of extra points they also get more mileage from their pool through extra boosts which adds to their overall synergy.

Every 2-3 points you are putting into a movement boost to stay in line with other factions are boosts that you can't put into the combat. It means you are hitting a bit less and delivering less damage. Your stats can look deceptively high on paper as they have a fairly high str and pow, but without the level of boosts that other factions see they are typically on even footing (at best) and in many situations they are more subpar.

I really enjoyed their look and theme, but their reliance on low focus front line themed casters was difficult to work with compared to playing cygnar or cryx.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/07/21 23:08:33


Paulson Games parts are now at:
www.RedDogMinis.com 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Pretty much all the major rebuttal points have been brought up, but even the statement itself just seems like a dumb one. You can apply it to heavies of most factions because most of them have 2-3 Exceptional Heavy Warjacks/Beasts, a few good ones, and the rest are mediocre/situational or outright terrible. In reality, I would wager a good argument could be made that Khador has more in that exceptional tier than a quite a few other factions.

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Saratoga Springs, NY

Cryx continues to sit in its corner and cry quietly to itself because it's all dark and emo and stuff...

Like watching other people play video games (badly) while blathering about nothing in particular? Check out my Youtube channel: joemamaUSA!

BrianDavion wrote:
Between the two of us... I think GW is assuming we the players are not complete idiots.


Rapidly on path to becoming the world's youngest bitter old man. 
   
Made in us
[DCM]
-






-

This is a very interesting thread!

As a new Warmachine player, and a Khador fan, I'm really appreciating the advice - thanks!

   
Made in us
Wraith






Salem, MA

 dementedwombat wrote:
Cryx continues to sit in its corner and cry quietly to itself because it's all dark and emo and stuff...


Hey, we do not cry!

...we lack the tear ducts.

No wargames these days, more DM/Painting.

I paint things occasionally. Some things you may even like! 
   
Made in sg
Longtime Dakkanaut




Things wrong with khador jacks. Spd 4, Mat 6, rat 4 almost universally. I've played Cygnar, Menoth and recently CoC. Menoth can just buff any jack up to mat 8 at least, which makes a huge difference when you're trying to hit a warpwolf. With the khador jack, you'll probably have to spend a focus to boost but with menoth, at mat 8, you'll hit pretty reliably. But that's Menoth.

For Cygnar, even their lowly ironclad has mat 7 rat 6. The defender, which is a SHOOTING jack has elite level mat. That's pretty much the standard baseline stats for their jacks.

For CoC, stats differ but their focus efficiency is so off the charts you can boost whatever you need to boost. Plus flare servitors effective give them +2 to attk rolls.

Otoh, Khador does have some good jacks. Drago, Behemoth, Spriggan, Beast 09, the demolisher/devastators with the new errata. Maybe the Grolar as well. However, what I would really really want as a new jack is a cheap jack , maybe 8 points with REACH, p+s18 perhaps. Just reach, 8 points, spd 4 mat 6 and I think a lot of people would take it as a standard jack.

My warmachine batrep & other misc stuff blog
http://sining83.blogspot.com/ 
   
Made in us
Big Fat Gospel of Menoth





The other side of the internet

 gunslingerpro wrote:
 dementedwombat wrote:
Cryx continues to sit in its corner and cry quietly to itself because it's all dark and emo and stuff...


Hey, we do not cry!

...we lack the tear ducts.


And souls... oh wait, you steal those.

(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻

RAGE

Be sure to use logic! Avoid fallacies whenever possible.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies 
   
Made in pt
Tea-Kettle of Blood




Sining wrote:


For Cygnar, even their lowly ironclad has mat 7 rat 6. The defender, which is a SHOOTING jack has elite level mat. That's pretty much the standard baseline stats for their jacks.


No, that is not the standard baseline for all Cygnar jacks, we also have the Centurion chassis jacks that have MAT 6 and SPD 4.
   
Made in us
Satyxis Raider






Seattle, WA

 dementedwombat wrote:
Cryx continues to sit in its corner and cry quietly to itself because it's all dark and emo and stuff...


What?

Cryx has some great jacks. Arguably one of the best in Deathjack. They just suffer from similar things as Khador. Focus hungry casters, great infantry, and minimal jack support. But at least Cryx has some great bone jacks that are not very expensive and with extremely useful arcnodes.
   
Made in ca
Buttons Should Be Brass, Not Gold!






Soviet Kanukistan

Deadnight wrote:

Disagree. for a slow faction, they have access to a huge amount of speed buffs, both with spells (boundless charge, escort, superiority etc) and feats (vlad, strakhov, etc)

There's no point in cherry picking out buffs, as they are warcaster specific. Once you get into the nitty gritty on interactions, there's exceptions to everything. Khador warjacks are base SPD4 however, this is constant.

Regarding Black Ivan: I think that he's a sub par choice for anyone not named Harkevitch. He is undoubtedly much better than a destroyer for 1 point more, but generally, casters aren't looking for a single POW14 arcing fire shot for 10 points. The Grolar on the other hand, occupies the same slot as the Spriggan, i.e. used for his melee, and his shooting is an afterthought. ROF5 seems nuts, until you realize that it can't really hit unaided against things that it can reliably harm with POW12, it won't do much damage against guys it can reliably hit on its own.

Regarding Malakov: In my experience, his awesomeness is directly proportional to how much your opponent tries to kill him. If he is killed, your army takes a significant hit. If he's ignored, he's awesomesauce. There's no point in trying to mitigate the loss by giving him a cheap jack, as this just limits his effectiveness. I've had good success with him running the Spriggan or the Behemoth backed up by mechaniks for *sucker*.
   
Made in gb
Drakhun





Khador jacks are pretty good, they just need good war caster support. Unfortunately khadoran war casters are selfish focus hungry beasts of war.

DS:90-S+G+++M++B-IPw40k03+D+A++/fWD-R++T(T)DM+
Warmachine MKIII record 39W/0D/6L
 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 keezus wrote:

There's no point in cherry picking out buffs, as they are warcaster specific. Once you get into the nitty gritty on interactions, there's exceptions to everything. Khador warjacks are base SPD4 however, this is constant.
.


There is every point in picking out buffs, when (a) those buffs are common and (b) when those buffs are game changing. Warmachine operates very heavily on these interactions. You do not discuss cygnar without factoring in the presence of arcane shield, or cygnar shooting without factoring in snipe. Similarly, you cannot discuss khador jacks without factoring in the multitude of ways they have to speed up those jacks.
At the end of the day, those 'nitty gritty interactions' define the faction, and what may not be true in a general build might be perfectly true for a specialist, or skew build.
In other words:Spd4 is the base speed but not the constant speed. Saying 'their lack of speed is an issue' isn't true when over half the casters have ways of speeding them up.

 keezus wrote:

Regarding Black Ivan: I think that he's a sub par choice for anyone not named Harkevitch. He is undoubtedly much better than a destroyer for 1 point more, but generally, casters aren't looking for a single POW14 arcing fire shot for 10 points. The Grolar on the other hand, occupies the same slot as the Spriggan, i.e. used for his melee, and his shooting is an afterthought. ROF5 seems nuts, until you realize that it can't really hit unaided against things that it can reliably harm with POW12, it won't do much damage against guys it can reliably hit on its own.

No arguments on cost - both destroyers and Ivan are overpriced. That said, there is great value in black Ivan for epic irusk and 3utcher (fire for effect, energiser) and sorscha1 (double destroyers plus feat) and 2.

The grolar is used for his versatility. Again, five pow12s are murderous against the right targets, especially with virtuoso in play. Knock them down with the hammer and pump 5 shots into them - useful, if situational anti-warlock tech, for example.

 keezus wrote:

Regarding Malakov: In my experience, his awesomeness is directly proportional to how much your opponent tries to kill him. If he is killed, your army takes a significant hit. If he's ignored, he's awesomesauce. There's no point in trying to mitigate the loss by giving him a cheap jack, as this just limits his effectiveness. I've had good success with him running the Spriggan or the Behemoth backed up by mechaniks for *sucker*.


Malakov and a juggernaut gets a whole heap of work done. Don't dismiss our workhorses out of hand.

greatest band in the universe: machine supremacy

"Punch your fist in the air and hold your Gameboy aloft like the warrior you are" 
   
Made in us
Bloodthirsty Bloodletter





Glen Ellyn, IL

It's to my understanding that while Khador jacks are fairly powerful their casters just don't have enough focus to pass around to them.
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




CT

Khador warcasters have plenty of focus 6 and 7 casters. There are only 3 focus 5 casters and one of them can increase it to 6. They do not have any that stand out like harbinger, and cryx is certainly above average. The issue is not that Khador warcaster have low focus, its that they are generally built to buff infantry and smash face, not run several warjacks. Many khador warcasters have very powerful warjack buffs but only for one warjack (superiority). They lack alot of the battlegroup wide buffing that can support several warjacks (Synergy, Mobility, etc)

71 pts khador - 6 war casters
41 pts merc highborn - 3 warcasters 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 ArchVile wrote:
It's to my understanding that while Khador jacks are fairly powerful their casters just don't have enough focus to pass around to them.


No, khador warcasters match up well against others in terms of their focus stats- 6 and 7 being most common, and very much in line with warcasters of other factions.

The issue is khador lacks focus multiplying effects, battlegroup wide spells, and more importantly - ancillary jack support. look at the protectorate of menoth - often regarded as the 'go-to' faction in terms of running lots of jacks. How do they do it? It's not by having 'more focus'. That's short sighted. (In fact, the more focus equals more jacks argument falls down pretty quick upon scrutiny). How they do it is via support units like the choir (whose buffing abilities include spells granting no shooting at a jack, +2s to attack and damage rolls, etc) and vassals (ancillary attack) meaning you can get more mileage out of your jacks, and name them more efficient and easy to run.

By contrast khador has the koldun lord and his rather pathetic power booster ability.

greatest band in the universe: machine supremacy

"Punch your fist in the air and hold your Gameboy aloft like the warrior you are" 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





Use the jack(s) to draw fire. Use your army to kill their stuff.

People have a never ending need to blow up the biggest model on the table regardless of how little it impacts the game. Field a bullet magnet and let the enemy waste resources trying to kill it while using your infantry and caster to take out the rest of the army. A devastator with a kovnik is pretty hard to kill and works as a good bullet magnet.

CSM Undivided
CSM Khorne 
   
Made in ie
Battleship Captain





But thats because (like almost all Khador units) they're fairly self-sufficiant.

Aside from a speed buff, when a khador jack charges it hits HARD and its armor and boxes make them very difficult to destroy in round unless a lot of resources are dedicated to removing them.

On top of that, several jacks and many spells allow our jacks to charge for free. Khador jacks with Cyriss or Menoth levels of support would be sickening.


 
   
Made in us
Wraith






Milton, WI

I think people are underselling all the Battlegroup and Control area wide buffs that Khador has. This makes up for the lack of focus, imo.
Vlad's feat with Signs & Portents give all his jacks at least 11" charge, and a huge bump to hitting stuff.
Butcher & Karchev have Battlegroup buffs.
Sorcha has her feat, which makes hitting automatic.
There are more I don't know the names of.
Maybe that is the problem for people. If you don't get the most out of the feat, the jacks will feel overcosted.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
You feat and get one good turn, then have the armor to outlast the retaliation. If your plan works.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/07/27 19:43:22


Bam, said the lady!
DR:70S+GM++B+I+Pw40k09/f++D++A(WTF)/hWD153R+++T(S)DM++++
Dakka, what is good in life?
To crush other websites,
See their user posts driven before you,
And hear the lamentation of the newbs.
-Frazzled-10/22/09 
   
Made in eu
Regular Dakkanaut



Thornton-Cleveleys, England

To the OP,

It's not that Khador Jacks are bad, it's the fact the ones you have mentioned make more of peoples lists because of what they can do and bring.

Simple fact of the matter outside of Menoth and CoC and certain choice casters, Khador players are likely to run only one warjack and because of that they want to bring the best choice of Jack for the caster and list they are using.

   
Made in us
[DCM]
-






-

gobbo76 wrote:
To the OP,

It's not that Khador Jacks are bad, it's the fact the ones you have mentioned make more of peoples lists because of what they can do and bring.

Simple fact of the matter outside of Menoth and CoC and certain choice casters, Khador players are likely to run only one warjack and because of that they want to bring the best choice of Jack for the caster and list they are using.


This thread has calmed some of my...apprehensions!

Seems as if the OP was either guilty of 'believing the hype' and/or just needs to learn patience/Khador tactics.

As a Warmachine beginner who chose Khador, this is all good to hear!

   
Made in us
Member of the Ethereal Council






 Alpharius wrote:
gobbo76 wrote:
To the OP,

It's not that Khador Jacks are bad, it's the fact the ones you have mentioned make more of peoples lists because of what they can do and bring.

Simple fact of the matter outside of Menoth and CoC and certain choice casters, Khador players are likely to run only one warjack and because of that they want to bring the best choice of Jack for the caster and list they are using.


This thread has calmed some of my...apprehensions!

Seems as if the OP was either guilty of 'believing the hype' and/or just needs to learn patience/Khador tactics.

As a Warmachine beginner who chose Khador, this is all good to hear!

I mean, My Harkevich can run alot a a mobile gunline, with template weapons
I am still winning games I won with an assasination against goreshade. all I had was harkvice left and he killed goreshade1

5000pts 6000pts 3000pts
 
   
Made in ie
Battleship Captain





 Alpharius wrote:
gobbo76 wrote:
To the OP,

It's not that Khador Jacks are bad, it's the fact the ones you have mentioned make more of peoples lists because of what they can do and bring.

Simple fact of the matter outside of Menoth and CoC and certain choice casters, Khador players are likely to run only one warjack and because of that they want to bring the best choice of Jack for the caster and list they are using.


This thread has calmed some of my...apprehensions!

Seems as if the OP was either guilty of 'believing the hype' and/or just needs to learn patience/Khador tactics.

As a Warmachine beginner who chose Khador, this is all good to hear!


Anyone who says Khador jacks are bad have never eaten a 11" charge from Behemoth under pVlad with Signs and Portents.

Was that a collosal I just ran through or a sheet of paper?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/07/28 20:32:03



 
   
Made in gb
Soul Token




West Yorkshire, England

 skrulnik wrote:
I think people are underselling all the Battlegroup and Control area wide buffs that Khador has. This makes up for the lack of focus, imo.
Vlad's feat with Signs & Portents give all his jacks at least 11" charge, and a huge bump to hitting stuff.
Butcher & Karchev have Battlegroup buffs.
Sorcha has her feat, which makes hitting automatic.
There are more I don't know the names of.
Maybe that is the problem for people. If you don't get the most out of the feat, the jacks will feel overcosted.


It's not so much that, it's that for a lot of those effects, it's "model / unit" or "in control area". So for a lot of those effects, you're still better off taking lots of infantry so you're making as many attack rolls as possible. You don't even particularly sacrifice damage! Jacks have a place and can be good--but for most Khador casters, the opportunity cost of running more than one is just too much. The Conquest kinds of adds to this neglect of the heavies, because it's a much more efficient return on focus or buffs than a heavy--if you can only afford to power one jack, why not take the biggest baddest one you can? Equally, the character jacks tend to edge out non-character ones because it's better to have one awesome jack than one good one and one that can't do anything this turn.

SPD 4 heavies without reach or dude-clearing (like Beast or the Devastator) are very vulnerable to getting gummed up by infantry, shut down with disruption or movement debuffs, or being alpha-striked by a faster heavy--they don't have to destroy it, just knock out the weapon arm or cortex.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/07/29 19:11:25


"The 75mm gun is firing. The 37mm gun is firing, but is traversed round the wrong way. The Browning is jammed. I am saying "Driver, advance." and the driver, who can't hear me, is reversing. And as I look over the top of the turret and see twelve enemy tanks fifty yards away, someone hands me a cheese sandwich." 
   
 
Forum Index » Privateer Press Miniature Games (Warmachine & Hordes)
Go to: