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I can't remember the last time I posted a list on Dakka; I'm usually dishing out the advice. But I'm starting an SM army that I think can roll with the emerging "big boys" of 7th: Serpent Spam Eldar, Deldar Beaststar, Necron AV13 wall/Air Force and Space Marine OS spam. Let me know how you think I'll fair against tournament competition please. Without further adieu:

Chapter Master: Artificier Armor, Powerfist, Gorgon's Chain, Bike- 240

Scouts x5- 55
Scouts x5- 55

TFC- 100
TFC- 100
Centurion Devastators x5: Gravcannons, Omniscope- 500

Imperial Knight Errant: melta cannon- 370
Imperial Knight Paladin- 375

Fortification: Imperial Bunker- 55

Total: 1850

Oddly enough I think you should consider swapping one of your errants for a Paladin. The troop slaughtering potential will help you - this list is already great at taking down MCs and armor, you're shooting for overkill with two Errants. I don't know where you'd find the 5 points, but realistically it would be a good choice if you can. Otherwise, the pressure you'll put on with the CM/Gravstar and Knight rush is pretty hefty.

Something I'm considering is dropping the third scout squad and subbing in a Bunker. I could put one of the TFCs in it; and the bunker itself scores obviously.

actually as per vehicle embarkation rules the TFC cant go inside the bunker.

That doesnt however stop you from putting them behind it to block LOS.

This list has alot of power, but the tankmaster is not gonna survive long enough to keep your cents alive as they crawl across the board unless your opponent dumps everything into your knights. He doesnt have FNP or any other characters to pass wounds too.

I'd actually drop 3 of the grav cents to purchase a LRR/w Multi-melta.

This lets you flat out one turn (while keeping your chapter master hidden for one turn behind it) and make sure you cents are in range to kill for the remainder of the game.

That's an interesting point; I'll stew on it for a bit. I could go Clan Raukaan IH too to get IWND and FNP from the Gorgon's Chain.

As for the bunker, I think I'll just put a scout squad in there and place an objective right next to the bunker.

I'm guessing this is for 6.5 Tournaments not 7th as in 7th with no mobile ObSec you'll lose.

As for the list there is a few things I don't quite understand and a few suggestions:

Why a bike on the CM? Is it to banzai him out of the unit? I just don't get it. Seems like 20 points wasted as the unit is already majority T5 and you're already relentless for firing the OB.

Everything else looks good based on play largely to table and late game objective grab as suits 6th ed.

However I do question the threat range on the Gravstar. That is a lot of points that may not see action until turn 3/4 depending on deployment and opponent. I'd consider adding Sevrin Loth for mobility and a 2++ tank.

Thanks for the input. I'll go point by point. It IS for 7th; and I do accept I'm taking a risk. With OS spam armies like Necrons, Serpent spam and other SM, their killing power for units like I'm bringing is low. I'm planning on being able to impose my will on them. Also, the knights and gravstar are as much about area denial as control. The gravstar bubbles 30" (with movement factored in) and says, "No." The knights are big enough to land on an objective and deny denial. So that's the strategy. It will not always work. But I think there's gotta be a natural counter to these OS spam armies other than other OS spam armies.

The bike is for late game denial; or in certain scenarios for splitting off and hunting.

I would love to add Loth. Unfortunately, for now, the East Coast NOVA meta does not allow FW. I think that is going to change very soon; but hasn't yet.

So what's stopping someone with 12 units of jetbikes grabbing 15 VPs by end of turn 3 and then just trying to hide as you struggle to get VPs?

If this is for 7th where you could be playing against huge MSU armies (like an Ork army with 30+ units) and fast OS units grabbing VPs early game.

That gravstar is only area denial if your opponent has important units. If he's spamming small units he'll not care about that Gravstar as it'll kill a 30pt Trukk, 51pt jetbike unit or other such unit.

For 7th Ed competitive play I think it needs a total rethink. Deathstars just aren't viable (unless they can target lots of units like Beastpack and Farsight Bomb) and neither is going min troops. Some of the missions completely destroy you if you can't grab lots of objectives early game. You're basically playing to table so if anything just go unbound. Drop both the scout squads and you can add Coteaz. Drop both the TFCs and you can get 3 Wyverns (which each is better than a TFC). I mean 2 squads as scouts as your only ObSec is a waste go unbound and you can make your list far more effective.

Well, I think we're having two different conversations. The points you're making are all valid for BRB play, but I play exclusively NOVA packet missions. My weakness to OS is still huge; but my strengths cover it better. For example, my opponent can never get more than 9 VP through the alternate mission objective (i.e. gradual scoring) so if i hop on 3 objectives at the end, i tie him on primary. And the goal of my army is to killkillkill so that he cannot gain that many VPs.

In fact, I'm going to change the title of this post so I don't mislead people.

But thanks for the thoughts. Certainly, I'm going anti-meta, and that is always a challenge.

 FlingitNow wrote:
I'm guessing this is for 6.5 Tournaments not 7th as in 7th with no mobile ObSec you'll lose.

When did 6.5 release?

j0hnnyllama wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
I'm guessing this is for 6.5 Tournaments not 7th as in 7th with no mobile ObSec you'll lose.

When did 6.5 release?

When 7th released and lots of TOs threw their toys out of the pram in fear that their net lists are no longer the strongest around. So they FAQd out 2 of the 3 big changes of 7th (kept Psychic phase, threw out Army building and Maelstrom). It looks this list is designed for 6.5 hence I'll go back to my original remarks.

 FlingitNow wrote:

j0hnnyllama wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
I'm guessing this is for 6.5 Tournaments not 7th as in 7th with no mobile ObSec you'll lose.

When did 6.5 release?

When 7th released and lots of TOs threw their toys out of the pram in fear that their net lists are no longer the strongest around. So they FAQd out 2 of the 3 big changes of 7th (kept Psychic phase, threw out Army building and Maelstrom). It looks this list is designed for 6.5 hence I'll go back to my original remarks.

I don't even think I understand your point. I don't think any TOs were worried about not having the strongest net lists around - usually, TOs aren't playing in the tournament. I don't think Mike Brandt is worried about winning NOVA with his net list. They're also perfectly in line with GW's 7th edition framework of "play the game you want to play." GW has been clear at the Open Day and in most of their statements that they fully expect events to set up their own restrictions. In fact, 7th edition rules speak to the forging of a social contract with your opponent to play a game you both want to play. Including/excluding maelstrom missions and unbound does nothing to make it a "not 7th" game. In fact, I'd say the tourney scene is closer to the intent of the rule book in 7th than it ever was in 6th.

Anyway, sorry that you seem to feel there's some great TO conspiracy to maintain net list superiority. When rhino rush or necron transport spam wins NOVA I guess we can all just blame the TO's for protecting such powerful 6th edition net lists.

I don't think this is the thread to discuss it. I never said anything about a conspiracy. I said fear of change. If you disregard 2 of 3 big changes from 6th to 7th then you're not really playing 7th you're trying to play 6th with the 7th Ed FAQs.

It is fear of what is possible in 7th. It is fear that there is something more powerful than the known net lists. Guess what there were power builds in 6th and 5th and every edition before that. If you're not worried about power builds why put restrictions on army building? Particularly with the freedom of 7th so it's not like everyone will take the same thing so we know that isn't the reason. We know that power builds exist so they are not doing to prevent power builds from existing which leaves doing it so that the power builds don't change too much.

It's reactionary and you get the same in Fantasy. At least in that system they let you play a tournament or two before comping everything. It's sad that the 40k community is going down that route.

Since my thread is already derailed, I'll throw in my .02,

Isn't there a legitimate fear of what's possible in a pure BRB tournament environment? What the NOVA/BAO tree tries to do is give Primary/Alternate modes of victory, and yes, limits detachments because otherwise, in a competitive environment you will incentivize and essentially force players to bring a Revanant Titan partnered with 3 Tervigons partnered with Coteaz and 3 grav centurions. In a competitive event of any type, there has to be some type of framework, otherwise the richest players will just buy the best possible combination of units and field them against everyone else.

GW has repeatedly stated and shown through their actions that they prefer to leave competitive play to the community to manage. And I'm fine with that. I find the NOVA/BAO version of 40k more fun to play than unbound and Maelstrom. It's more predictable, balanced and yes, fair.

Seriously dude - the entire 7th edition model as marketed by GW both verbally and technically is to create a game that people like with different rule sets, etc. depending on your opponents. The most "7th edition" thing you can do at this point is to create framework. There's no "wrong way" to play 7th, and the NE US tourney circuit provides a great venue for consistency and sets a great level of expectations for what to expect. If you want to play no holds, all rules, unbound super party that's your prerogative - and it's not wrong - but to rule out an entire structure because it doesn't incorporate every rule as "ignoring 2/3" of the major 7th changes looks past dozens upon dozens of rule changes, efforts made to streamline the game, and to create an environment where all players can play the 40k game they want to play.

Not to be a jerk - but how many east coast US tourneys have you played? If you don't like the format, that's fine, but if you haven't played it it's a bit nasty to say "WELL ITS NOT 40K STOP SAYING ITS 7TH" when the very spirit of 7th encourages this type of play.

I don't want to derail the thread further. So I'll leave it at that. If you want to discuss further PM me.

So my biggest concern with the list is still the 750 points that is doing little more than area denial at the moment. If you can't take Loth, then Perhaps Tiggy would work? Drop 2 Grav Cents and the bike and you're there (with enough points to give the CM a TH which makes a big difference against stuff like a DP, Hive Tyrant etc and an Auspex to help with cover).

I actually like the Tigurius idea. And that would leave enough to add a 6th gravcent.

 FlingitNow wrote:
I don't want to derail the thread further. So I'll leave it at that. If you want to discuss further PM me.

If you didn't intend to derail the thread, then why did you intentionally start this argument again?

We've gone over this before, 7th as written is not designed for competitive play. It's up to TOs to impose some form of sanity.


Shrike, that list looks nasty. Are you playing the Open? It's a list full of Hammers with minimal scoring, but what else do you expect with two Knights and a huge squad of cents. I'm not sure there is much out there that can out kill you. But, can you off enough ObSec? Probably. The list is far too inflexible for my tastes, but hits like a freight train and is capable of killing any army that relies on big expensive threats. Ironically, the toughest matchup for it is another Knight Army, and a five Knight army, which I'm sure there will be at least one, will wade through your army.

I'm not playing in the GT this year. My buddies and I have been curious about the narrative for years and figured this year, with 7th dropping, would be as good a year as any to take a GT off and explore the story side.

This list is one I'm building for the longer haul. I'm going to try and have it ready in time for Da Boyz GT (although I'm worried they'll comp out multi-knights).

What do you think about the Tigurius + 6 cents vs. a tanker and 5 cents argument? I'm starting to believe a 75% chance of gate is worth the possibility of getting tarpitted.

 The Shrike wrote:
I'm not playing in the GT this year. My buddies and I have been curious about the narrative for years and figured this year, with 7th dropping, would be as good a year as any to take a GT off and explore the story side.

This list is one I'm building for the longer haul. I'm going to try and have it ready in time for Da Boyz GT (although I'm worried they'll comp out multi-knights).

What do you think about the Tigurius + 6 cents vs. a tanker and 5 cents argument? I'm starting to believe a 75% chance of gate is worth the possibility of getting tarpitted.

Yeah, I'd be surprised if Da Boyz didn't comp out Multi Knight.


As for Tank +5Cents or Tiggy +6Cents.... its a major toss up. I think it should be Tank +5 Cents or Tiggy +5 Cents +Something else, preferably Obsec. I feel that sixth one is just overkill and even with some casualties you have wasted firepower only being able to split off one models Grav.

Tiggy brings Gate to the table most game, but 1/4 he won't have it. When he does the Cents are super mobile, but without it marching to centerfield still covers all but the 12" sides, or 2/3 the Table. If you include movement it gets even better. Tarpitting the Cents is always an option and makes it less likely to happen if you can Gate out whereas the Tank keeps the Cents ticking longer and protected from long ranged firepower as well as super killy to avoid tarpitting.

Overall, I think Tiggy brings more to the list, especially if you roll Gate Early. He can then fish for Perfect Timing, Forewarning, and always default to Prescience. IMO it may be better in many circumstances to just roll Divination especially when facing Wave Serpents or large numbers of vehicles.

Personally, I'd probably run a 100% tank over a 75% Gate, but there is a ton of flexibility and more potential with Tiggy.

Yeah I'm leaning that way too. In theory, I'd love to have the tanker because of the split-off contest late game; but how many games will he still be alive?

Last debate, what's the utility cost of subbing 1 errant for a paladin...and do I need that extra template?

 The Shrike wrote:
Yeah I'm leaning that way too. In theory, I'd love to have the tanker because of the split-off contest late game; but how many games will he still be alive?

I think most games he'll still be alive. With him Tanking its extremely difficult to hurt the Cents, so most opponents will just target other things until they can hit your Cents and bypass your Tank. You can actually save points and avoid the Shield Eternal for just a standars SS. At T6 he is damned resilient already and can't be doubled out. Only ID weapons which he can LOS away on the rare occasion they are coming his way.


Edit: Answering your other question. I think there is a lot of utility in subbing the Paladin for the Errant. Double Battle Cannons hurts many units at twice the rate as the Melta. Sure, the Melta is great against massed vehicles, but lets be honest, the Knights and Cents aren't particularly weak against vehicles. But, when you need to clear a unit off a distant objective, I'd rather hit it with two Battle Cannons instead of one Melta Cannon. That's if your TFCs are dead or preoccupied. I wouldn't expect to see too many Hordes, but you may see massed marines, and the Paladin is twice as effective at range and removing MSU marines than the Errant.

Actually, my buddy just brought up that Gate is under sanctic daemonolgy now and that I'd statistically perils every turn I attempted to summon GoI.....so I altered the list above so that the tanker is a bit more resilient. Unfortunately it requires me to be THAT guy who's like "Yeah my smurfs are actually being played as Clan Raukaan Iron Hands because....."

I think most games he'll still be alive. With him Tanking its extremely difficult to hurt the Cents, so most opponents will just target other things until they can hit your Cents and bypass your Tank. You can actually save points and avoid the Shield Eternal for just a standars SS. At T6 he is damned resilient already and can't be doubled out. Only IDweapons which he can LOS away on the rare occasion they are coming his way. 

How are you getting him to T6?

I think that was a typo.

Eh - the perils chance isn't as bad as I thought it was at first. I figured it was a 2 WC power, looks like it's a 1. 4d6 puts you at roughly the same chance of success as LD 10 used to in 6th. That grants about a 14% chance of perils on double 6s, but you'd perils on... not sure if it's any successful doubles, or any doubles at all. Check the BRB on that.

Edit: Yeah - perils on any doubles. At 4d6 you have a pretty hefty shot at getting doubles. My crappy math says you'd be hovering around 50% perils every time you attempt to cast, but that's probably wrong. Too lazy to work out this easy problem

I'm not a math guy either. But the risk of losing a gravcent to Gate fail has always been real. I dunno, I'll wait for wiser, more mathematically inclined people to weigh in on the risk side of it.