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I am making a hypothetical list for future reference. I don't have a lot of stuff on here, but I am trying to plan what I want to buy, since this point value is more on the order of what my FLGS runs, apparently. So here goes. Also, I can't really decide on what to do with the combi-weapons for the Sternguards. Suggestions?

Chapter Tactics - Sentinels of Terra

HQ
Pedro Kantor - 185pts
Sternguard Veterans (5x combi weapons) - 170pts
Drop Pod - 35 pts

Captain - Relic Blade, Storm Bolter, Artificer Armor - 140pts
Command Squad (Apothecary, 4x Combi-Plasma) - 155pts
Razorback - 55pts

Troops
Tactical Squad (Combi-Melta, Meltagun) - Rhino - 195 pts

Tactical Squad (Combi-Plasma, Plasmagun) - Rhino - 200 pts

Scout Squad (5x Bolters) - Land Speeder Storm - 100 pts

Fast Attack
Assault Squad (Power Fist, Veteran Sergeant) - 120 pts

Heavy Support
Devastator Squad (2x ML, 2x Lascannons) - 140 pts

Total
1495 pts

If that’s your only pod, c-melta. Not sure I’d bother with Kantor, as that’s a suicide drop, and they are not going to live to score. IMHO you would be better served with a full pod of vets, rather then a half squad and a HQ. Still, Kantor is a tough old bugger, he might be worth it.

Stormbolters are iconic, but not worth the point. In general, I think a combi of some sort would serve you better. Besides that, your captain is a good, low cost, jack-of-all-trades guy. His command squad is fine.

I’d like to se a MM and HB in your tac squads, but that’s my Ultramarine telling me the codex requires both the special and the heavy in a 10 man squad. YMMV.

Love the scouts.

I worry about your assault sarge being challenged out and killed before striking. I would only give a 1W model an unwieldy weapon if he had a character attached to his squad. I’d also like to see a pair of flamers in the squad.

Devs are fine.

You have no AA fire. It might be worth swapping two rhinos for more pods.

Overall, a reasonable everyday list. Looks like it would be fun to play.

 Nevelon wrote:
If that’s your only pod, c-melta. Not sure I’d bother with Kantor, as that’s a suicide drop, and they are not going to live to score. IMHO you would be better served with a full pod of vets, rather then a half squad and a HQ. Still, Kantor is a tough old bugger, he might be worth it.

Stormbolters are iconic, but not worth the point. In general, I think a combi of some sort would serve you better. Besides that, your captain is a good, low cost, jack-of-all-trades guy. His command squad is fine.

I’d like to se a MM and HB in your tac squads, but that’s my Ultramarine telling me the codex requires both the special and the heavy in a 10 man squad. YMMV.

Love the scouts.

I worry about your assault sarge being challenged out and killed before striking. I would only give a 1W model an unwieldy weapon if he had a character attached to his squad. I’d also like to see a pair of flamers in the squad.

Devs are fine.

You have no AA fire. It might be worth swapping two rhinos for more pods.

Overall, a reasonable everyday list. Looks like it would be fun to play.

Yeah, the inclusion of the Captain and the Command Squad was kind of a way of seeing if that would be a good idea. They are largely a holdover from my 750 pt and 1000 pt lists. However, they look like 300+ points that could be spent elsewhere. I think increasing the Sternguards to two teams of 9 or 10 would be better served. I really like that Apothecary, though, since he makes the Plasma less harmful. I will definitely field Combi Melta instead of Plasma for Sternguards. I would just keep Kantor as an HQ. I might add a Librarian instead of the Captain, and put him in the second pod. I will have to run the numbers, but I think moving stuff around to get a Stormtalon would help mitigate the AA issue as well. I will post a revised list soon.

The more I think about this, the more I think I might actually run this points level with *GASP* something other than Pedro Kantor. My captain and command squad are fairly durable since the Apothecary makes wounding a little difficult. I dunno, could be a colossal mistake. But I went through all the trouble of kitbashing together four combi-plasmas (and burned through my plasma pistol supply in the process), and I want to use them.

Here is what I have been thinking.

HQ -
Captain (Storm Bolter, Relic Blade, Artificer Armor) - 140 pts
Command Squad (Apothecary, 4x Combi Plasma) - 155 pts
Razorback - 55 pts
Total 350 pts

Troops
Tactical Squad (Combi Melta, Meltagun, Rhino) - 195 pts
Tactical Squad (Combi Plasma, Plasmagun, Rhino) - 200 pts
Scout Squad (Landspeeder Storm) - 100 pts

Fast Attack
Assault Squad (Vet Sergeant, Power Maul, Flamersx2) - 120 pts
Storm Talon (TLLC) - 140 pts

Heavy Support
Dev Squad (2xML, 2xLC) - 140 pts

This leaves me with 255 pts. What could I get for 255 pts that would be any good. Like you said, a 5-man Sternguard Squad is probably a suicide squad. I could drop the Assault Squad to generate points, which could give me enough to make a 10-man Sternguard squad with combi weapons (I love combi since it allows me to keep the CRBD from Sentinels of Terra) and a drop pod. Otherwise, 255 pts could get me another Dev Squad and possibly a tank of some sort, such as a Dakka Predator. Can't really squeeze another Dev Squad and another Storm Talon.

EDIT: I could afford another Dev Squad and a Librarian(ML 2 with the Bones of Osrak). That would be 255 pts on the dot.

The list you have is very well balanced. Nice blend of firepower for taking down any targets. So what to add depends a lot on who you expect to see across the table. What’s big at your FLGS? I might suggest some minor tweaks, like using full plasma guns rather then combis on your command squad, and taking the skyhammers on the talon, but what you have should work.

The librarian would let you be more active in the psychic phase, which is probably something you could use. These days, with LoW and other super heavies out there, a good answer to “what to add to a balanced list” is usually “More AV fire” So pick a flavor that works for you and run with it.

I had a crazy thought. I am getting a Contemptor Mortis with Kheres Assault Cannons and Cyclone Missile Launcher.

If I put him in instead of the Storm Talon, I end up with the following.

HQ -
Captain (Storm Bolter, Relic Blade, Artificer Armor) - 140 pts
Command Squad (Apothecary, 4x Combi Plasma) - 155 pts
Razorback - 55 pts
Total 350 pts

Librarian (ML 2, Bones of Osrak) - 115 pts

Troops
Tactical Squad (Combi Melta, Meltagun, Rhino) - 195 pts
Tactical Squad (Combi Plasma, Plasmagun, Rhino) - 200 pts
Scout Squad (Landspeeder Storm) - 100 pts

Elite:
Contemptor Mortis Dreadnought (Kheres Assault Cannon x2, Cyclone Missile Launcher) - 215 pts

Fast Attack
Assault Squad (Vet Sergeant, Power Maul, Flamersx2) - 120 pts

Heavy Support
Dev Squad (2xML, 2xLC) - 140 pts

This leaves me with 75 pts. What could or should I spend it on? If I turn the Command Squad Razorback into a Rhino, I could afford a Dakka Predator. Otherwise, I have 75 pts with not much to spend it on. Thoughts?

****************************************************************************************************************************************************

I also came up with a different list too. This one is the more traditional(ish) Crimson Fists list with Pedro Kantor and some Sternguards.

HQ
Pedro Kantor - 185 pts

Troops
Tactical Squad (Combi Melta, Meltagun, Rhino) - 195 pts
Tactical Squad (Combi Plasma, Plasmagun, Rhino) - 200 pts
Scout Squad (Landspeeder Storm) - 100 pts

Elite
Sternguards (5x Combi Plasma, 4x Combi Melta, Drop Pod) - 333 pts
Contemptor Mortis Dreadnought (Kheresx2, CML) - 215

Fast Attack
Assault Squad (Vet Sergeant with Power Mault, 2x Flamers) - 120

Heavy Support
Devastator Squad (2xML, 2xLC) - 140pts

1488/1500

Pedro would ride with the Sternguards in the Drop Pod. Would this be a suicide drop? Should I shave off points and get another group of Sternguards out there?

For the first list, a TML/HB speeder is a nice little chunk of mobile firepower for 75 points.

On the second list:
Unless you are at 10 men to combat squad, I’d not mix combis that heavily. And you never need to do a suicide drop. You can always land on a flank and try to pick off an outlying unit. Of course, there are times you will want to do the crazy drop, so keep that in mind. Suicide drops are usually 5 guys all with c-meltas. Full squads you tend to be more conservative with or support more, so they live an extra turn or so.

 Nevelon wrote:
For the first list, a TML/HB speeder is a nice little chunk of mobile firepower for 75 points.

On the second list:
Unless you are at 10 men to combat squad, I’d not mix combis that heavily. And you never need to do a suicide drop. You can always land on a flank and try to pick off an outlying unit. Of course, there are times you will want to do the crazy drop, so keep that in mind. Suicide drops are usually 5 guys all with c-meltas. Full squads you tend to be more conservative with or support more, so they live an extra turn or so.

You know, I completely forgot the Land Speeder even exists. I will pick one of those up, should cap that list.

The second list is repurposing the Command Squad Veterans from the first list as Sternguards, hence the large amount of Combi-Plasma in the list. I think I am going to change it to 5x combi melta and 4x combi plasma. I would like to put Pedro in the same drop pod, but it kinda makes it unworkable. I will have to figure something else out. I wish there was a single man drop pod that cost next to nothing. I suppose once the c.melta marines fire off their one shot, they could use their special ammo to mimic the c.plasma marines. I dunno.

If you are looking for a way to drop pod characters, assault squads are your friends. Swap the JPs for a pod, points stay the same. And like most characters, they like to be in CC. I’ve done it with Cassius, and it worked well for me. Assault squads also get all their toys at 5 man, so it’s not like you loose anything by not going for the full 10 man squad.

 Nevelon wrote:
If you are looking for a way to drop pod characters, assault squads are your friends. Swap the JPs for a pod, points stay the same. And like most characters, they like to be in CC. I’ve done it with Cassius, and it worked well for me. Assault squads also get all their toys at 5 man, so it’s not like you loose anything by not going for the full 10 man squad.

Are you suggesting put Pedro in a pod with an Assault squad minus their jump packs? The only benefit I am seeing is that they don't cost nearly as many points. How do Sternguards not get the same phenomenon. You can equip them any way you want, regardless of how many you have. Still, the more I look at it, the more I think I should have kitbashed C.Meltas, not C.Plasmas.

The plus of using assault marines is that you get the pod, 5 guys as backup, and a few toys for ~100 points. The starting cost of a bunch of sternguard in a pod is significantly higher.

My post was in response to "I wish there was a single man drop pod that cost next to nothing.” Assault marines in a pod is a close as you are going to get in a pure C:SM army. If you wanted to ally in Space Wolves you can just rent a pod from them, but then you either need to go unbound, or take a HQ/troop tax to get them as allies.

 Nevelon wrote:
The plus of using assault marines is that you get the pod, 5 guys as backup, and a few toys for ~100 points. The starting cost of a bunch of sternguard in a pod is significantly higher.

My post was in response to "I wish there was a single man drop pod that cost next to nothing.” Assault marines in a pod is a close as you are going to get in a pure C:SM army. If you wanted to ally in Space Wolves you can just rent a pod from them, but then you either need to go unbound, or take a HQ/troop tax to get them as allies.

Oh, I get it. That certainly would work. Sternguards would go in their own pod as a full squad, Pedro would drop with some Assault Marines. I may have to investigate that.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:
The plus of using assault marines is that you get the pod, 5 guys as backup, and a few toys for ~100 points. The starting cost of a bunch of sternguard in a pod is significantly higher.

My post was in response to "I wish there was a single man drop pod that cost next to nothing.” Assault marines in a pod is a close as you are going to get in a pure C:SM army. If you wanted to ally in Space Wolves you can just rent a pod from them, but then you either need to go unbound, or take a HQ/troop tax to get them as allies.

Oh, I get it. That certainly would work. Sternguards would go in their own pod as a full squad, Pedro would drop with some Assault Marines. I may have to investigate that.

I am seeing an interesting use with Sicuras.

Whoops, points miscalculation on List #1, without the Landspeeder, I have 65 points, not 75 points. I am sure I could shave off some somewhere. Probably should just turn the Razorback into a Rhino.

Edit: Points count for the dread is off too. They increase the base price from 155 to 175. So there goes the Land Speeder. Dang.

So here is what I have with the corrected points values. I think I am just going to put the Pedro List on the back burner.

HQ -
Captain (Storm Bolter, Relic Blade, Artificer Armor) - 140 pts
Command Squad (Apothecary, 4x Combi Plasma) - 155 pts
Razorback - 55 pts
Total 350 pts

Librarian (ML 2, Bones of Osrak) - 115 pts

Troops
Tactical Squad (Combi Melta, Meltagun, Rhino) - 195 pts
Tactical Squad (Combi Plasma, Plasmagun, Rhino) - 200 pts
Scout Squad (Landspeeder Storm) - 100 pts

Elite:
Contemptor Mortis Dreadnought (Kheres Assault Cannon x2, Cyclone Missile Launcher) - 235 pts

Fast Attack
Assault Squad (Vet Sergeant, Power Maul, Flamersx2) - 120 pts

Heavy Support
Dev Squad (2xML, 2xLC) - 140 pts

Total Points - 1455/1500.

I have no idea of what to do with that extra 45 points. I am looking at artifacts. Burning blade might work for the Captain. I don't know what the general consensus on that item is though.

If the command squad is gonna be shooty rather than punchy, maybe drop the relic blade and storm bolter and give him "primarch's wrath" instead? Is actually not bad for the points. That leaves you 55pts left over, which is enough for another scout squad (can never have too many) or basic land speeder for late game ObSec + meltabombs for your assault serg.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
also - "No one puts Pedro in the corner!"


Automatically Appended Next Post:
also also - are Bones of Osrak a chapter Relic? If so you can only have one relic per army, so Primarch's wrath (or anything else from relic list) would be out...

 Iapedus wrote:
If the command squad is gonna be shooty rather than punchy, maybe drop the relic blade and storm bolter and give him "primarch's wrath" instead? Is actually not bad for the points. That leaves you 55pts left over, which is enough for another scout squad (can never have too many) or basic land speeder for late game ObSec + meltabombs for your assault serg.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
also - "No one puts Pedro in the corner!"


Automatically Appended Next Post:
also also - are Bones of Osrak a chapter Relic? If so you can only have one relic per army, so Primarch's wrath (or anything else from relic list) would be out...

Yeah, the Bones of Osrak are a Sentinels of Terra relic, so yeah, no more relics. Poo. I have decided, fluffwise, this will be the Crimson Fists' Third Company (only battle company without a named Captain, as far as I can tell). Pedro is really cool, I just really lack the models to make him shine.

I decided to take another look at my 1500 pt Pedro list. I think the other list is pretty well set at this point. Here is what I've got. I've decided to do a full 10-man squad of Combi-Melta Sternguard in one drop pod, and put a 5-man Combi-Plasma Sterguard squad with Pedro in another pod. To generate the points necessary for this, I have to drop the Assault Marines and one of my troop choices, so I don't know how good of an idea that is. Since Pedro makes Sternguard scoring, I guess I can be okay with it. Had enough points left for a Landspeeder w/TML.

HQ
Pedro Kantor - 185 pts

Troops
Tactical Squad (Combi Melta, Meltagun, Rhino) - 195 pts
Scout Squad (Landspeeder Storm) - 100 pts

Elite
Sternguards (5x Combi Plasma, Drop Pod) - 205 pts - Pedro drops with these guys.
Sternguards (10x Combi Melta, Drop Pod) - 365 pts
Contemptor Mortis Dreadnought (Kheresx2, CML) - 235

Fast Attack
Landspeeder w/ TML - 75 pts

Heavy Support
Devastator Squad (2xML, 2xLC) - 140pts

1500/1500

The same advice for the previous list pretty much applies to this - you need to decide whether you want a punchy captain & unit or shooty, and I would argue that Pedro is not the best of shooty captains out there. Also, pretty much all units are scoring in 7th, including your sternguard - I think that special rule only applies if CF are your allied attachment or something.

If you decide to stick with him in a shooty unit, I think you are sinking way too many points into your sternguards. 10x Combimelta is insane, 3x is more than enough per squad. You can be more specialized and save points for elsewhere if you specifically decide what it is you want each squad to do, and then hone them to their task. I would maybe do the following (roles in italic)

HQ
Pedro Kantor - 185pts
Librarian 65pts
Command Squad (4x PG, DP) - 195pts - Pedro Attached, MEQ/Light AT

Troops
TAC (Combimelta, Meltagun, Rhino) - 195pts - ObSec
Scout Squad (LSS, HF) - 100pts - late game ObSec/Assault

Elite
Sternguards (6x Combimelta, DP) - 325pts - AT, combat squaded into 3x combimelta each
Contemptor Mortis Dreadnought (Kheresx2, CML) - 215 - AA

Fast Attack
Landspeeder w/ 2 x MM - 80 pts - late game ObSec/AV

Heavy Support
Devastator Squad (2xML, 2xLC) - 140pts - pummel everything into dust, Libby attached for buffs

1500/1500

The libby allows you to have the command squad (cheaper than sternies and can take special weapons) while he will also give you a bit of psychic (every little helps).

I keep screwing up the points value for the Contemptor. 235 not 215. I like the idea of putting the Librarian with the Devs, what buffs would be good? The fact that they don't get Divination is irritating. I suppose I could chop the Storm Bolter off the Captain and give him a better weapon(for the other list). As for Pedro, would using an Honor Guard be good choice to go with him?

I have thought about using a Vanguard Squad without jump packs as well.

Just wanted to add that I really like 5 bolter scouts in a LSS as Crimson Fists..

I use two units at the moment (with a combi melta on each sgt)

 Brometheus wrote:
Just wanted to add that I really like 5 bolter scouts in a LSS as Crimson Fists..

I use two units at the moment (with a combi melta on each sgt)

I got the idea from these very boards, so I won't take credit for being clever.

Since the Sternguard boxes only come with two of each Combi weapon, I am probably going to either have to kitbash some more together, locate some on eBay, or reduce the number in my squad drastically. Two boxes of Sternguards (my Combi Plasmas squad is already made from a Command Squad and some kitbashed Boltgun/Plasma Pistol combinations) would only get me four Combi-Meltas.

Again, more spitballing, but I kinda want to know what you guys think about if I were to run some Assault Terminators in an army. I love the appearance of Termies, and the TH/SS build is pretty potent. I would Deep Strike them next to something that I want to die and go from there. Problem is, I would have to take the Libby and the Assault Squad out to fit them. I don't know how bad that is. Here is that list. I don't think I can make the Pedro List work with them, though. I am back-burnering that list for now, since I don't have any Sternguards, Drop Pods, and Pedro is only just getting here today.

HQ -
Captain (Storm Bolter, Relic Blade, Artificer Armor) - 140 pts
Command Squad (Apothecary, 4x Combi Plasma) - 155 pts
Razorback - 55 pts
Total 350 pts

Troops
Tactical Squad (Combi Melta, Meltagun, Rhino) - 195 pts
Tactical Squad (Combi Plasma, Plasmagun, Rhino) - 200 pts
Scout Squad (Landspeeder Storm) - 100 pts

Elite:
Contemptor Mortis Dreadnought (Kheres Assault Cannon x2, Cyclone Missile Launcher) - 235 pts
Assault Terminator Squad (TH/SS x5) - 225 pts

Heavy Support
Dev Squad (2xML, 2xLC) - 140 pts

Total Points - 1445/1500