Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

After hearing so much about it, I figured I'd look into this game. I come from 40k, but I've only had the one opponent, so the game's worked well for me. I thought it might be nice to try something new, and I like the philosophy behind the Khador (May have misspelled that); heavy hitting heavy armour that sacrifices speed for raw smashing power. I was thinking the two player starter would be a good place to start, as it has the faction I'm interested in and another one to press a friend into trying with me

A few questions I have that I feel will be better answered by regular players than FAQs; is Khador ranged mostly in the form of big cannons, or do they sport some higher ROF guns too? I'd be interested in a shooty force of them if possible. When painting models, should I aim for the schemes already laid out, or am I free to use what colours I will without the community looking at me strange? Would I be better served with the shooty capabilities of another army? How balanced is shooting and assault/cc?

Thanks in advance for any answers, let's see if you can hold my interest!

EDIT; changed title from "Convince (Or Disuade) Me; Should I Pick Up WMH?" To reflect current situation

BladeSwinga wrote:
After hearing so much about it, I figured I'd look into this game. I come from 40k, but I've only had the one opponent, so the game's worked well for me. I thought it might be nice to try something new, and I like the philosophy behind the Khador (May have misspelled that); heavy hitting heavy armour that sacrifices speed for raw smashing power. I was thinking the two player starter would be a good place to start, as it has the faction I'm interested in and another one to press a friend into trying with me

Hey there, and welcome to the iron kingdoms! Don't forget the complimentary goggles and behemoth plushie!

Before you start, can I disabuse you of a notion? Khador isn't a faction of armour. Nor is it slow. Khador is an infantry faction. The materials for its jacks are in remote and inaccessible regions, hence low lumbers, but they make them big and sturdy to compensate. They make up for their lack of numbers with a solid backbone of excellent infantry options though. And yes, they like raw power. In khador, the word for bigger is the same as that for better, and there is no such thing as 'excessive' force. Secondly, though their speed stars on their jacks are low, they're not lower than other comparably heavy jacks, plus khador has a lot if ways to speed them up.

The two player starter is great value. The rulebook is handy. That said - the men o war heavy infantry are a specialist breed and are not seen in 'generalist' lists. They're too slow and lack attack volume without the right support. Most folks prefer iron fangs or winter guard for example,

.

BladeSwinga wrote:


A few questions I have that I feel will be better answered by regular players than FAQs; is Khador ranged mostly in the form of big cannons, or do they sport some higher ROF guns too? I'd be interested in a shooty force of them if possible. When painting models, should I aim for the schemes already laid out, or am I free to use what colours I will without the community looking at me strange? Would I be better served with the shooty capabilities of another army? How balanced is shooting and assault/cc

Thanks in advance for any answers, let's see if you can hold my interest!

(1) khador have solid riflemen and elite sniper units. They're basic infantry have short range blunderbusses. Beyond that, they're like the guard in 40k. Big crude blast weapons that crater the ground. Mortars, bombards, and other low accuracy but high splash damage weapons. High rof really isn't a thing here in this game. It's a nineteenth-century-esque setting. Trains, telegraphs and single shot breech loading rifles are a mainstay. Khador have the grolar incoming, which is a jack with a potential 5-shot machine gun, but again, low accuracy.

But for what it's worth, khador are a combined arms faction. Excellent melee, and solid shooting.

(2)whatever you want. So long as you're during the right pp models, they can be pink with blue spots and be game legal.

(3) you can't gunline in this game. Generally speaking, shooting ranges max out at about 14'. You can't just hang back and ping away all day. As such all shooty won't work. You need to get in there and engage. With objectives, you need to contest zones, melee tarpits are essential for board control and damage output (heavy hits are generally melee based). Don't get me wrong - shooting is solid, and is necessary, and will win games, but your games won't revolve around it. There are no tau here.

From a less experience perspective, I can tell you that my buddy and I, both avid 40k players, picked up just the boxed set for WMH and had an absolute blast with just that. It really brings a fresh perspective to wargaming if you haven't set foot outside GW, and for a very reasonable price. It's fantastic.

Yeah its amazing how often people get caught out by Khador, they get drawn in by the 'slow, heavily armoured but hit like a truck' concept that their jacks have but then find that they are largely an infantry faction. That isn't to say that this concept isn't true, its just that you can't support that many slow jacks effectively and their infantry is great.

a) In general weapons with ROF 2+ are rare and Khador are probably on the lower end of the spectrum for these types of weapons. They do however have plenty of blasts and sprays + good buffs for these types of weapons, so you can definitely build them as a shooty army.

b) Yeah you can paint them however you want. The only place Warmachine differs from 40k is that people are much stricter on using the correct models in a tournament setting. Mostly this applies in the case where there are several different versions of a character i.e there are 3 different versions of Eiryss (a merc character) who all have different abilities so you need to use the correct one whereas in 40k people won't really care if you use Calgar as a SM Chapter Master with a Power Fist.

c) I disagree with Deadknight - you can definitely gunline in this game, the big difference is that unlike 40k this game is balanced so a gunline isn't just going to shoot everything off the table and win. As he mentioned a big part of this is that shooting ranges are much shorter, a really powerful shooting unit might have 12" range, but a unit with SPD6 (slighly above average) or SPD5 with reach can run to engage them - you wouldn't be attacking him but you can shut down the shooting pretty easily. But yeah short answer is that the game is incredibly balanced between shooting and melee, having played 40k for 12+ years I continue to be amazed at how well balanced this game is in comparision.

As far as shooty armies go, almost every faction can be built with an emphasis on ranged but some factions have more shooting options and generally do it better:
Cryx - mostly melee, has limited ways to build if they want to go shooty but still very effective
Cygnar - one of the most ranged heavy factions, generally considered the most shooty Warmachine faction
Khador - mix of both melee and ranged - sits in between Cygnar and Cryx imo
Retribution - mix of both, has units which can outshoot anyone but its a case of quality of quantity
Menoth - mostly melee, some ranged options
Circle - mostly melee
Legion - mix of both, but probably the most shooty of the Hordes factions, they use their beasts for their shooting moreso than Warmachine (which uses ranged infantry)
Skorne - almost entirely melee
Trolls - mix of both, they can get all sorts of buffs to make seemingly terrible shooting units actually useful

You can own the entirety of all the rules for the game (armies, that is) for $60 and receive free updates for the length of the game to include any new model or army additions.

Think about that one.

 TheKbob wrote:
You can own the entirety of all the rules for the game (armies, that is) for $60 and receive free updates for the length of the game to include any new model or army additions.

Think about that one.

And if you are playing with a regular gaming group then you can easily split this between you, all the rules you need are on the cards which come with the models and you very rarely need to check the core rules after your first couple of games.

But, if you like modeling, be prepared to do little of it. Very few conversion opprotunities. If I wanted to make the War Arguses from butcher3 winter ones and use Butcher1 Alternate sculpt I cant, because despite any sane person knowing it is butcher3, it isnt legal.
And be prepared for anal players even in PUG.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
But, if you like modeling, be prepared to do little of it. Very few conversion opprotunities. If I wanted to make the War Arguses from butcher3 winter ones and use Butcher1 Alternate sculpt I cant, because despite any sane person knowing it is butcher3, it isnt legal.
And be prepared for anal players even in PUG.

This hasn't been my experience at all. For tournaments you'll need the proper model (and this is the same for 40k as well) but in some leagues and at you FLGS conversions should be as common as those with the skill to make them. I'm going to convert the pose of Kara Sloan and everybody is waiting for me to get off my duff and do it already.

Thanks for the input, it's always nice to know what you're getting into with a whole new game ($100 is still $100...). I've noted the lack of conversion/customization abilities with the largely metal line of models, and I've also better understood how the Khador work through my own research. What you've said here helped solidify all that.

Keeping in mind that I know NOTHING about the game mechanics wise, what would some decent shooty options to expand on the army in the two player starter? The decimator warjack appeals to me for this, and there's an infantry unit with rifles (not blunderbusses) that I haven't heard much about. The spriggan seems like something to consider, too. If I can't have volume of fire, I'll go for the biggest, noisiest boomsticks available! (Because gunpowder is a glorious thing hat ouht to be used in any setting that possesses it ) If I were to swap out the juggernaut with a decimator, what else would help with fleshing out a small 15pt list? (Common low points value from what I gather, like 500 in 40k?)

BladeSwinga wrote:
Thanks for the input, it's always nice to know what you're getting into with a whole new game ($100 is still $100...). I've noted the lack of conversion/customization abilities with the largely metal line of models, and I've also better understood how the Khador work through my own research. What you've said here helped solidify all that.

Keeping in mind that I know NOTHING about the game mechanics wise, what would some decent shooty options to expand on the army in the two player starter? The decimator warjack appeals to me for this, and there's an infantry unit with rifles (not blunderbusses) that I haven't heard much about. The spriggan seems like something to consider, too. If I can't have volume of fire, I'll go for the biggest, noisiest boomsticks available! (Because gunpowder is a glorious thing hat ouht to be used in any setting that possesses it ) If I were to swap out the juggernaut with a decimator, what else would help with fleshing out a small 15pt list? (Common low points value from what I gather, like 500 in 40k?)

I don't know much about Khador, but I've played them a few times and they can do some really neat things. If you like shooting and are willing to buy some non-battlebox options you might like Harkevich, his character warjack Black Ivan has a "14 range POW 14 blast attack that Harkevich can allow him to fire twice (once on the 'jack's turn and once on the caster's turn). He also works well with a Demolisher as it can stay armor 25 while shooting it's gun and advancing up the field. Additionally he can let his battlegroup move faster with Escort while gaining armor for himself.

I wouldn't go nuts. A starter box or a two player box split between you and a buddy will do. You can try out the mechanics of the game and decide if you like them before tailoring Khador or your chosen faction to suit your playstyle. Decide if you like the game first.

Zond wrote:
I wouldn't go nuts. A starter box or a two player box split between you and a buddy will do. You can try out the mechanics of the game and decide if you like them before tailoring Khador or your chosen faction to suit your playstyle. Decide if you like the game first.

This, even more than what I said, this. Find a group if you can, then find a Press Ganger (Warmachine/Hordes teacher and general game repressentative) to show you the ropes, if you're lucky you might find such a person/group at your local gaming shop, if not try searching the gaming ads for your area.

BladeSwinga wrote:
The decimator warjack appeals to me for this, and there's an infantry unit with rifles (not blunderbusses) that I haven't heard much about.<snip> If I were to swap out the juggernaut with a decimator, what else would help with fleshing out a small 15pt list? (Common low points value from what I gather, like 500 in 40k?)

http://battlecollege.wikispaces.com/mkiiWidowmakers
Are you talking about Widowmakers? Good snipers, have the ability to ping specific columns on War Jack and Beasts. Think of it as forcing specific non-lethal damage results on tanks. You still need to get sufficient damage in columns to access the system infrastructure to be able to ping, though. I wouldn't recommend getting Widowmakers as a first option, take them when fleshing out towards 35+pts.

http://battlecollege.wikispaces.com/mkiiWinterguard+Rifle+Corps
You may also be talking about Rifle Corps. I have insufficient experience with Khador to really do anything except mentioning that there must be a reason why I see them mentioned so seldom.

http://battlecollege.wikispaces.com/mkiiWinterguard
Winter Guard Infantry is where Khador's true shooting prowess lies. So to speak.
Khador can play a shooting game but it's typically a melee oriented faction. The factions typically noted as combined arms are Retribution and Cygnar and on the Horde side Legion. Most other factions CAN play ranged, but to them ranged is a side game to soften people up before axe is applied generously to face. Winter Guard Infantry combined with their Unit Attachment combined with Kovnik Josef Grigorovic (a solo) is a very nasty speed bump. On their own Winter Guard are competent and dangerous, imagine Imperial Guard armed with Psibolters. Their banner can make them able to use their bolters as flamers (each and every one of them). Their officer can give them the equivalent of 40k Stealth. And Josef can give them Feel No Pain. All the while the Winter Guard are still dirt cheap.
They actually qualify as either first or second place in the over all best value unit in Warmahordes. (The other extreme-value unit being Cryx' Satyxis Raiders)

Have I sold you the Winter Guard Infantry yet?

---

The starting box, unless we're talking about the 2-player box, gives you about 13 points I think it is and more or less the only two jacks you'll actually need for a while. Sorcha is an extremely competent caster (her feat is just dreadful for your opponent). The only problem with it is that it doesn't play so well on its own. If it's the two-player starter box you're going for, the other army is Cygnar, which will out-shoot you. Almost as badly as Tau vs Space Marines, but that's about as far as I can stretch that analogy before it breaks into uselessness. There's no turn 1 alpha strike unless you go out of your way to find the correct scenario for it and literally feed your opponent miniatures.
It sounds like you like the gameplay of Cygnar but prefer the aesthetics of Khador. I'd still go for Khador in that case since it's easier to appreciate a certain type of gameplay over changing what pleases your sense of aesthetics. After all, Cygnar don't use gunpowder for about half of their shooting, half of them a bunch of lightning tossing nannies who, by virtue of being human, deserve to die.

Word of warning. This game is NOT about giant steampunk robots & monsters. They exist but do not expect to field a force of them & win.

Most good lists run 1-3 jacks & a bunch of infantry. It's something I find new players get discouraged by, they see these cool robots & want to fight them but then realize they get swarmed by infantry.

See jacks as tanks, 1 or 2 to support infantry but they lack the volume of attacks to take down units.

You can definitely win with a list made up almost completely of Beasts or Jacks. I frequently see Legion and Circle running lists with nothing but Beasts and support solos, and Skorne can do it as well. The Warmachine factions tend not to do it as much, but the eVyros Griffon spam build is one of Rets strongest lists atm.

Make no mistake, Retribution is not a 'jack faction. That's one single caster with one single list. Menoth is the one to go to for playing with large amounts of 'jacks.

One faction that hasn't been mentioned is Convergence of Cyriss. They are a jack heavy faction. They're not ideal for a new person to learn, but I did it. They can also be fairly shooty as well with lots of template weapons and special rules. They're the newest faction and don't have a lot of stuff compared to some of the older factions and they won't be updated as often, but they're amazing, IMHO.

Even so, it's not just you it's your opponent. I'm just saying 1 caster & 3-5 jacks per side is NOT the usual game, but it seemed to be advertised like that.

I'm not saying it's bad I'm saying if you want to just play caster & beasts/jacks theres a game mode for it but it is far from the norm. There are people I know who quit when they realized that it wasn't monsters & machines pummeling each other but had a heavy reliance on infantry even when you play jack heavy your opponent may go infantry heavy & if thats not what you want don't buy into it.

I often catch flak for this but I do enjoy WM/H. I just want to warn people it's not what it may seem from the battleboxes & advertisements, the paint the wrong picture to some people, it happened to me.

 Canadian 5th wrote:

Zond wrote:
I wouldn't go nuts. A starter box or a two player box split between you and a buddy will do. You can try out the mechanics of the game and decide if you like them before tailoring Khador or your chosen faction to suit your playstyle. Decide if you like the game first.

This, even more than what I said, this. Find a group if you can, then find a Press Ganger (Warmachine/Hordes teacher and general game repressentative) to show you the ropes, if you're lucky you might find such a person/group at your local gaming shop, if not try searching the gaming ads for your area.

The nearest group that I know that plays is a good half hour drive, and being a student I can't do that myself yet. I'd be playing a frind for the most part, not even sure I'd be splitting the box instead of just loaning out the other half to play (have yet to approach my gaming friends about this). I haven't thrown money away yet on a system I may (not?) like.

I'm not going to quote everyone, as that kind of editing on a tablet is a nightmare, but I'll try to bring up all the points.

@Mahtamori - I believe it was the rifle corps I was looking at, I'll have to look more into them to see if they're worthwhile should I get that far into the game. The Winter Guard do seem to fit my idea/theme of noisy gunpowder fun! Would you know anything about the decimator?

@Shas'O Dorian - I'm now aware that the game won't be rock'em sock'em robots, but having some warjacks is better than none! The tank analogy works well here; especially for Khador, I feel

@A bunch of posters whose names I'm too lazy to go back and forth on a tablet that makes editing a - I think I'm pretty much sold on the Khador aesthetic, and will try to make shooty work with them (while retaining some smashy choppy goodness). While the other races/armies may be a stronger build based on shooting alone, I am not aiming (no pun intended) for WarmaHordes Tau.

So, the 2 player starter is where I should, well, start? Along with some "how to play" videos?

BladeSwinga wrote:

@Shas'O Dorian - I'm now aware that the game won't be rock'em sock'em robots, but having some warjacks is better than none! The tank analogy works well here; especially for Khador, I feel

Glad I could help, like I've said it's a fun game and SOME caster can run jack heavy (not 100% jacks) but heavier on the side of 3-5 instead of 1-3. Also with new journeyman warcasters it should be easier but Khador isn't too friendly on jack heavy.

Fluffwise this is because they lack the resources to manufacture cortexes in high numbers. Check out battle college for more info and for some great info on units.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
But, if you like modeling, be prepared to do little of it. Very few conversion opprotunities. If I wanted to make the War Arguses from butcher3 winter ones and use Butcher1 Alternate sculpt I cant, because despite any sane person knowing it is butcher3, it isnt legal.
And be prepared for anal players even in PUG.

Not true. There are more terms and conditions involved, but you can still be very creative.

http://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?192274-HMS-Griffon-Gun-Carraige-to-Airship-Conversion

This is hms griffin. It's a converted khadoran gun carriage. Here is what it's supposed to look like: http://privateerpress.com/warmachine/gallery/khador/battle-engines/gun-carriage

Bear in mind - that airship conversion is 100% legal for pp tournaments! and frankly Is bloody awesome.

I've gig my own conversions- amongst others, I have a female fenris. Game legal, as per the conversion rules too.

BladeSwinga wrote:
[
@Mahtamori - I believe it was the rifle corps I was looking at, I'll have to look more into them to see if they're worthwhile should I get that far into the game. The Winter Guard do seem to fit my idea/theme of noisy gunpowder fun! Would you know anything about the decimator?

Have no fear, the rifle korps are excellent. I personally prefer them to the winter guard infantry. They're not as popular as the winter guard, but because they're a different tool, but it's not because they're bad.

There are differences. Their defense can't be buffed as high as the winter guard infantry, thry lack numbers (10 v15squad size) and they lack the versatility and toolbox nature of the wgi (essentially, the wgi are useful for anything). Also they're more 'point removal' than 'mass clearance' winter guard infantry are the latter, and frankly, are brilliant at it.

Where the rifle korps shine is the ranged game. Kovnik joe also buffs them, and he makes them super accurate. Thry also have extremely high range. What I like about them is they're killing stuff on turn two whist the wgi are still running into position at this point. That 14" clearance is gold. Riflemen are frankly brilliant at clearing alpha strikes from long range. Theyre great at popping single wound infantry and the range thry perform at is a huge plus for them. They're also a lot friendlier in timed turns - those wgi sprays soak up a huge amount of your tine.

I like them. Joe and the riflemen, backed up by some iron fangs is an incredibly solid combination.

Widowmakers and Wintergaurd infantry are both common first buys after the battlebox.

And do not discount the blunderbusses. They look weak at first but the infantry are deadly with all the bells and whistles.

There is a reason WGI are some of the most popular infantry in Khador.

About the modeling, I'm getting ready to make a female Syntherion (COC) by using a Steel Soul Protector head and torso. Or possibly a unique caster to use against my brother from a short story I wrote. I'd be using a Clockwork angel body. (heavily modified of course.)

Any decision yet, OP?

Yes, I've bought the two player starter set and am in the process of building the models. I find it odd that the plastic the models are made from isn't compatible with plastic cement, making assembly take more time than for 40k models.

I am worried about some of the models (Man-o-war suits, 'jacks) breaking easily after being used a little, and prompts me to begin looking at pinning the models ( warcasters and the menoth infantry were slotted together, so I'm not worried about them and have them built). Anyone have any good guides or tips for pinning? (Anything pointing at a sig is useless to me as the tablet I view the forums from doesn't show them)

EDIT; Seems the tutorials are pretty easy to find. Still, any tips from seasoned pinners?

Pin vice + paper clip + something with a nice hard pointy tip to it.

Measure your pin vice bit to the paper clip to ensure same size.
Take pointy tool, like a thumb tack or thick needle, and put it exactly where you intend to pin, apply pressure.
Use indention to help you aim pin vice as you drill.
Remember not to drill too far, but deep enough.
Stick the paper clip in, cut off excess. Join the two parts, check for good fit.
Take clip wire out of one side. Superglue the hole and the clip a little, stick it in.
Super glue the bit of clip sticking out, shove the other piece on to it.
Allow to dry.


Wham bam

I use zap a gap super glue for my plastic and metal models. It practically fuses the plastic ones in my experience. Very tough bond. I can drop them off a table and they won't break.

The rules are far better written. You aren't left scratching your head and trying to negotiate a solution with your opponent.

WMH You Make Da Call: 0 threads that go on to a second page.

40k You Make Da Call: Cesspool of unresolved issues and arguments that go on for many pages until mercifully put down.

And please don't neglect the fluff. It's amazing. Check out some of the books and/or Iron Kingdoms RPG. It's well written and often follows the ebb and flow of real history, which I happen to really like. But there's also the epic fantasy in there as well.

 MWHistorian wrote:
And please don't neglect the fluff. It's amazing. Check out some of the books and/or Iron Kingdoms RPG. It's well written and often follows the ebb and flow of real history, which I happen to really like. But there's also the epic fantasy in there as well.

This is an excellent point. I purchased the World Guide for the RPG after seeing it recommended here and it was a great purchase. Very entertaining and engrossing so far.

 Necroshea wrote:
Pin vice + paper clip + something with a nice hard pointy tip to it.

Measure your pin vice bit to the paper clip to ensure same size.
Take pointy tool, like a thumb tack or thick needle, and put it exactly where you intend to pin, apply pressure.
Use indention to help you aim pin vice as you drill.
Remember not to drill too far, but deep enough.
Stick the paper clip in, cut off excess. Join the two parts, check for good fit.
Take clip wire out of one side. Superglue the hole and the clip a little, stick it in.
Super glue the bit of clip sticking out, shove the other piece on to it.
Allow to dry.


Wham bam

I'll keep the "Wham bam" part in mind in particular Going to look for the pin vice/drill bit I'll need. Would a hardware store have a pin vice, or is that more of a pure hobby item?

In one tutorial, they recommended using thin brass rod instead of paperclip. Is there any benefit to this, or is it mainly preference?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MWHistorian wrote:
And please don't neglect the fluff. It's amazing. Check out some of the books and/or Iron Kingdoms RPG. It's well written and often follows the ebb and flow of real history, which I happen to really like. But there's also the epic fantasy in there as well.

I had a decently long response here, but my bloody tablet farted out on me, and I have to start over again
If I like the game once I've played a few times, I'll likely get into the lore via the rule/faction books. The RPG is a little more far fetched, as I wouldn't have a large enough group to play at all, let alone a party larger than 2 or 3 + the GM. If any of you play using roll20/Skype/whatever, I'd be open to sitting in for a session or playing a bit, group permitting!