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Something which has piqued my interest is the inspiration of Veteran Sergeant's 31 mm Space Marines coming from the early Space Marines of Rogue Trader and 2nd edition. From what I can tell, these Space Marines were a bit different to the ones we have today: less about pomp and heraldry, they were rougher and more brutal, with personal inscriptions on their stuff like "Kill" on their shoulder pads.

I was wondering where I can find some good images and information on the Space Marines of the early Rogue Trader days. They sound much grittier and realistic than what we have now.

Yeah, the character of the game has changed quite a bit over the years. It used to have more of a cyber-punk feel (think Judge Dredd) and there was much more humour and silliness. I would recommend picking up the Rogue Trader rulebook if you can find it anywhere. It's so much better than the modern BRB. Like all of 40k (including units, points, campaigns) crammed into one book.

There are also white dwarf compendiums, which contain a lot of the best WD articles and updates for RT. And books like Realms of Chaos, which was one of the best (though maybe not for marines).

Marines were more or less as they are now by the time you get to 2nd edition. The models have become a bit more gothic and cluttered in their style, but you probably want to focus on RT era stuff if you want to see them looking different.

Early Space Marines were not Knights-In-Space, but condemned criminals juiced up on combat drugs and aggression enhancers.

Surprisingly, very little of the Rogue Trader fluff has survived intact in current-day 40K. That being said, many of the classic bits of fluff have their origins in Rogue Trader, and its very interesting to see how the fluff has evolved.

Yip there are some really cool stuff in the original rule book. The pic of the marines sitting round smoking and looking like a bunch of gang members makes me wonder what happened the game I fell in love with years ago. Don't get me wrong I still love the game it has lost that edge but it's gained alot too.

Basically, the whole cyberpunk thing kind of faded into the background, and a space-gothic theme for 40K appealed to the studio moreso than Mad Max in Spaaaace.

The space-gothic aesthetic also set it apart from a number of other cyberpunk/post-apocalypse-set games that were coming out in the late 80s/early 90s, and served as brand-identifiers, far more than yet another set of "'roided out criminals are Humanity's last hope" stories.

Rogue Trader was a magical book, filled with all sorts of silly stuff. You should be able to find a .pdf copy online if you do some searching. Paper copies of it are tough to find these days, unless you're willing to pay bunches of money or buy someone's awful used copy that's barely readable.

The punk space marines are interesting, I also liked are the mutation tables and the alien races.

Carnivorous Sand Clams remain one of my favorite things to spring on unsuspecting characters in any RPG.

Oh, those and Bog Octopi, from WHFRP.

 Mysterious Pants wrote:
Rogue Trader was a magical book, filled with all sorts of silly stuff. You should be able to find a .pdf copy online if you do some searching. Paper copies of it are tough to find these days, unless you're willing to pay bunches of money or buy someone's awful used copy that's barely readable.

The punk space marines are interesting, I also liked are the mutation tables and the alien races.

The Carnivorous Sand Clam has higher weapon skill than a Space Marine Captain LOL!

 ClassicCarraway wrote:


The Carnivorous Sand Clam has higher weapon skill than a Space Marine Captain LOL!

Stats were toned down a lot in 3rd. Back in RT/2nd, the numbers were a bit higher across the board.

Somewhere there is a fun little humor piece about a modern Ultramarine talking to an old school Crimson Fist. I read it on old newsgroups decades ago. Used to have a copy on my work computer 2 jobs ago, but since lost in the sands of time. My search-fu has been unable to find a copy. If anyone here also remembers it and has a copy, please share.

 Nevelon wrote:

 ClassicCarraway wrote:


The Carnivorous Sand Clam has higher weapon skill than a Space Marine Captain LOL!

Stats were toned down a lot in 3rd. Back in RT/2nd, the numbers were a bit higher across the board.

Somewhere there is a fun little humor piece about a modern Ultramarine talking to an old school Crimson Fist. I read it on old newsgroups decades ago. Used to have a copy on my work computer 2 jobs ago, but since lost in the sands of time. My search-fu has been unable to find a copy. If anyone here also remembers it and has a copy, please share.

That is true, I had completely forgotten about that. Didn't marine captains have like a 9 WS back in RT and 2nd edition days?

 ClassicCarraway wrote:

That is true, I had completely forgotten about that. Didn't marine captains have like a 9 WS back in RT and 2nd edition days?

I thought it was that bad, but a quick trip to the shelf shows me that it wasn’t that far out of line. In the 40k Compendium with the army list, the highest BS/WS we see are for the hero/major hero level terminator characters at 7s. I recall Mephiston having the same stat line as a vampire lord from fantasy in the 2nd ed BA/DA codex, so there might be higher numbers out there.

A marine captain was WS7, some of the special characters like Ragnar, Calgar, Abaddon, Mephiston were WS:8. I think Kharn was the only Human with WS:9, along with some greater daemons and larger nids. I think the Avatar and Bloodthirster were the only units to have WS:10. Although codex Chaos had some daemon prince examples such as Doombreed who IIRC had WS:12.

WS was way more important back then though because CC was decided by WS+D6, versus your opponent's WS+D6, and the difference was how many hits you landed. Initiative was only used in the event of a draw, and even then it only meant 1 hit, so it was quite unimportant. Obviously that got quite flipped around.

Hey, thanks for the mention, though the link is broken to my blog above. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/437416.page

To be fair, Rogue Trader was definitely not "more realistic". In a lot of ways, the setting was even sillier than today. Though, with freeze rays and wolf chariots, 6th/7th is giving it a run for its money. At this point, Space Dwarves on motorized tricycles are comparatively serious.

Like was mentioned above, the Space Marines of the old days were just a lot less "heroic" and a lot more "ruthless space sociopaths". That was the feeling I am shooting for. Severed heads, scribbling stuff on their armor, teeth, and rhino horns. Those sorts of images are what inspired me.

Of course, the idea behind Space Marines has also changed. The "recruited criminals" thing actually gets misrepresented a lot because it's in the original Rogue Trader book. But in reality, Rick Priestley's "Origines of the Legiones Astartes" which established the idea of "recruited kids turned into modified super soldiers" was published in White Dwarf about 6 months later. So the idea of Space Marines as hive scum and feral warriors whacked out on combat drugs was a concept that was retconned almost immediately. But at the same time, the "canon" wasn't something that anybody cared about back then. So yes, they were, but also, no, they weren't.

40K has kinda swerved around throughout time. So, oddly enough, "modern" 40K is both darker, and less dark, than Rogue Trader. Just depends on how you qualify that designation and what part of the setting you're talking about. Certainly the overall tone of modern 40K is a bit more "serious", but the setting has also gotten a little bit larger than life in a lot of ways. Characters more likable and heroic. Though it's fair to say that really, what I'm building is "Veteran Sergeant's 40K", which is an amalgamation of the things I like about 40K, and selectively forgetting all the stupid stuff I don't like. I'll be honest. It's way a better universe than what you're getting from Games Workshop.

I totally encourage you to look up the old Rogue Trader books. They're a bit of a trip. Especially if you don't remember the old days of 40K.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

Of course, the idea behind Space Marines has also changed. The "recruited criminals" thing actually gets misrepresented a lot because it's in the original Rogue Trader book. But in reality, Rick Priestley's "Origines of the Legiones Astartes" which established the idea of "recruited kids turned into modified super soldiers" was published in White Dwarf about 6 months later. So the idea of Space Marines as hive scum and feral warriors whacked out on combat drugs was a concept that was retconned almost immediately. But at the same time, the "canon" wasn't something that anybody cared about back then. So yes, they were, but also, no, they weren't.

That was't even retconned, the exact description in the Rogue Trader rulebook was: "Young recruits are subject to many hours of intensive training and indoctrination, leading to physical and mental changes. Their bodies are strengthened through bio-chem, and their resolved hardened by psycho-surgery. A special black plastic carapace is merged with their natural flesh, forming a sort of identity tag as well as a permanent protection."

The Origins of the Legiones Astartes article was an expansion and explanation of that little bundle of words rather than a replacement, the greatest retcon was changing the black carapace from BEING plastic to "It looks like a film of black plastic when it's growing in the tanks" (which was the same wording used in the 3rd edition IA article), and even that doesn't necessarily count as its on the same level as the common soundbite of "a chapter being ten companies of a hundred marines" when most entries on scout companies say they have no formal size.

Yeah, but "young" is a pretty broad definition, and the implication in Rogue Trader was definitely teenagers, not 9-10 year olds, lol. Recruiting "whole hive gangs", "warrior castes", etc. The original Space Marine by Ian Watson ran with that same theme.

There was a definite shift from recruiting criminals and killers, then modifying them and psycho-conditioning them, to the essentially building an entirely new transhuman individual. The references to hive scume and feral planets, etc were also removed, so it's not just an "expansion and explanation". It was an entire conceptual reworking.

When I said expansion and explanation I meant the specific paragraph that I quoted as the Origins of the Legiones Astartes article had the same scope, the article included no mention of recruiting ferals or gangs but that's because it completely omitted the issue of recruits origins just as the quoted paragraph did. They may have subtly shifted away from the 'entire gangs' but they didn't ditch gangs entirely, as you say Ian Watson's Space Marine ran with it and that was published 5-6 years later, with the Imperial Fists recruiting from Necromunda being reaffirmed in their 3rd edition Index Astartes article. Likewise you still have young feral warriors being recruited.

The fluff in the rulebook may have been vague and there may be subtle discrepancies with later fluff, but there's no explicit statements that are contradicted ie: Night Lords wear black armour and worship Khorne vs Night Lords wear blue and despise all forms of chaos worship.

PS: I'd prefer not to get into a great discussion of the likes of african child soldiers or child gangs in South American slums, but the notion of entire gangs of hive scum is not is not incompatible with the ages for implantation - it can begin as low as 10, but can also start as late as 12.

Rogue Trader-era Marines were basically the Marines from Starcraft.

Um, no. Rogue Trader came long before Starcraft.

And?

I suggest reading Space Marine and the Inquisition War Trilogy by Ian Watson, IMO head and shoulders above any of the offerings from current BL authors. Space Marines were certainly a lot more interesting back in the day, with elements of sado-masochism and psychosis and individual personalities. Loyalist marines today are boring, and seemingly sit in their cells praying, working out and eating balanced meals before reluctantly going to war. Maybe that's why you hardly ever see people paint the names of their marines on the base anymore?

The comic 2000 AD was also huge around that time, and had a big influence on early 40k (e.g. Arbites are pretty much rip-offs ofJudge Dredd). Early 40k also felt far less heroic, and had a much more dystopian feel - the Horus Heresy didn't even feature in Rogue Trader, so the Emperor was much less about heroic sacrifice and more parasite, and the Imperium was hopelessly inefficient and incompetent (although elements of this has survived through to the current fluff).

I have to say I was pretty disappointed when I came back to 40k after a long hiatus and found it to be very sterile and GRIMDARK! It seemed like GW had lost their sense of humour, and was appealing to a younger crowd who wanted to take their toy soldiers seriously goddammit! I miss the humour of those days, when poking fun at the game was a reminder that it was really only a game of toy soldiers and should!'t be taken too seriously. This is why I'm a big fan of Loganclaus and his chariot - it's much more tongue in cheek than Grimdark, and a throwback to the good old days.

I remember from RT the was a picture of two Space Marines arresting a hive ganger for doing graffiti. And this guy has written something like "marines are pigs".

One of the biggest differences in early RT is that there is almost no mention of the Emperor or the primarchs. I think Lion El'Jonson gets a mention in the book, but it just says that he 'founded' the chapter, it doesn't even mention if he was a marine.

There used to be a lot of pictures of marines interacting with people, or fighting up close. That's why it is really weird now when people say Marines are "9-foot tall". In RT they always looked about 5'7", but they were still badass

 tyrannosaurus wrote:
The comic 2000 AD was also huge around that time, and had a big influence on early 40k (e.g. Arbites are pretty much rip-offs ofJudge Dredd).

Yeah, I never really played the Judge Dredd game, but I know GW used to sell the miniatures. I wonder if their license expiring might actually have been what kicked them to make a sci-fi game in the first place. If you look at some of the very first marine models, they are also quite Judge-like. I'm pretty sure the big shoulder pads is a remnant of that.

It was a combination of 2000AD changing publishing hands, as well as rights expiring.

40k definitely borrows from the same sources as Judge Dredd - but it also borrows from Dune, Starship Troopers, Foundation, and a bunch of others (and "deathworlds" aren't their idea, either. Harry Harrison did a trilogy of books with that name in the early mid 70s.

GW DID produce figures for the JD rpg, but they also did D&D figures back then as well (Even if Ral Partha had the "official" line by the mid 90s) and miniatures for Strontium Dog and Rogue Trooper (other characters from 2000AD.

The souther trooper from Rogue Trooper even made it into the 40k line in RT (as a merc, I think).

 Smacks wrote:

One of the biggest differences in early RT is that there is almost no mention of the Emperor or the primarchs. I think Lion El'Jonson gets a mention in the book, but it just says that he 'founded' the chapter, it doesn't even mention if he was a marine.

Er, the concept of Primarch's didn't appear til a few years later but the Emperor was certainly mentioned aplenty, possibly moreso since in then fluff he did still occasionally issue edicts, not to mention back then the Adeptus Terra were usually referred to as 'the priesthood' rather than by name, owing to the fact they were all Adepts of the God-Emperor (the Space Marines weren't, which is why they were called the Legiones Astartes instead of Adeptus Astartes)

Johnson was mentioned, but with the more subtle spelling of Lyyn Elgonsen. Leman Russ was also named as founder and commander of the Space Wolves. (again with a more subtle joke: He was stated to be Imperial Commander Lucan, you'd have to read the description of Imperial Commanders to find that this title is interchangeable with Lord.. whereas these days GW would have named him Leman Russ, Lord Lucanhurhur)

Is it me, or was the artwork much more gruesome and gory back then?. Heck, even the RT cover had a bloody ork head held up high.

Yes, but, also, Heavy Metal magazine was more popular then. Not sure the current crop of artists are even aware it exists.

I've just been looking over the Rogue Trader rulebook, and here's an image that certainly has me interested. A Space Marine Captain in camouflage!

Yeah, though the dude on the left apparently thought it was a blue planet before deploying.

He's got the tiger stripes, though, so it breaks up his profile at least.

Good initiative, poor judgement.

Marines were also T3 with a 4+ save back then.

As for the Primarchs thing, the Horus Heresy, and all that entails, was invented for Space Marine (the second Epic system) so they could have an excuse to have the box come with only marine miniatures. The Horus Heresy was the present day setting of that game, not 10 thousand years later.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

As for the Primarchs thing, the Horus Heresy, and all that entails, was invented for Space Marine (the second Epic system) so they could have an excuse to have the box come with only marine miniatures.

Not quite, the Primarchs were added by Space Marine but the Heresy therein was otherwise mostly the same as in Adeptus Titanicus and Realms of Chaos: Slaves to Darkness. The First Interlegionary War had received some mention in the first Ultramarines article, and the Horus Heresy may have been namedropped before as well, but it Adeptus Titanicus was the game they needed the civil war for, Space Marine merely continued the trend.