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I have lately been seeing that alot of people don't really like, or should I say hate, the Ultramarines.
Why? I think they're cool, not too overused, and they're the Space marines!
If we have any Ultramarines haters, please answer my question!

Ultramarines are vanilla. They are also described as so generically good and perfect that to some it seems boring. It's the same reason why some people don't like Superman. He's like the original superhero, who can do everything. Although lately they have given him flaws and toned that down a bit.

I'm not a hater, I think they can be cool, but that's my take on it.

People don't look deep enough, and assume that because they are the paragons of the codex astartes, they are therefore the 'best'. What a lot of people don't realise is that this is as much a curse as a blessing, as if they encounter something not part of that doctrine, they are out of their depth. For example, in the Heresy they took a beating at Calth as they simply did not know how to fight other Marines.

The y are also a monument to the failure of the Imperium. In same the system as a whole is almost the antithesis of what the Emperor wanted, the codex has become a dogmatic doctrine. When Gulliman wrote it he wanted it to be a guideline, not a religion, and would despair at what it has become.

Also, welcome to Dakka!

Space Marine Codex, 5th Edition wrote:"Chapters [not descended from Guilliman's geneseed] are disciples who owe their genetic inheritance to another Primarch, but follow the Codex Astartes as keenly as their divergent heritage allows. While primarily composed of successor Chapters, this group also includes several Chapters of the First Founding - notably the Imperial Fists, White Scars and the Raven Guard. These chapters can never be Ultramarines, for their gene-seed is not that of Roboute Guilliman. Nevertheless, they will ever aspire to the standards and teachings of the great Primarch.

[Chapters who do not emulate the Ultramarines] are aberrants; chapters who, through quirk of gene-seed, mutation or stubbornness, eschew the Codex Astartes in favor of other structural and combat doctrines. Some, such as the Blood Angels and their successors, strive to be worthy of Guilliman's legacy, but their recalcitrant gene-seed drives them ever further from it. Others, such as the Space Wolves and the Black Templars, remain stubbornly independent, looking to their own founder's ways of war and caring little of how they fare in the eyes of others. These aberrant Chapters were always few in number and their presence diminishes with each passing decade, for their gene-seed is no longer the source of fresh Chapters."

This. This is why.

First, Welcome to Dakka.

I’ve not actually seen a lot of Ultramarine hate lately. It was bad for a bit, but has tapered off as far as I can tell. It was mostly the internet hate echo chamber doing its thing. I’m sure if you go looking for it, you can still find it. But in my day to day web browsing and talking, I don’t see any left.

As for why, there are a few seeds thrown around that grew into the hate fest that was. The over-the-top fluff, which not unique to the UMs, didn’t help. The biggest thing I think was the quote from Matt Ward (author of the SM codex and hate target himself) that every marine wished they could be an Ultramarine, even those from different chapters and primarchs. That’s good troll bait right there, and spawned a lot of rage. Plus the whole goodie-goodie poster boy thing; always fun to hate on the mainstream. It’s so edgy.

People tend to forget that UMs are not flawless. Pride, hubris, and arrogance might not be as flashy as being half vampire/werwolf/traitor/robot, but it is a flaw, and we have it in spades.

Ultramarines are cool!

I hate all space marines because I find them VERY bland and GW seems to love them the most. 160~ Space Muhreen items and only 36 Dark Eldar and 38 'Nid? Give the xenos some love! That and that they are the "protectors".
Pretty much I don't like them because I find pretty much all Space marine chapters overused and I personally find their fluff boring, I prefer the chaotic evil and insane adventures of people like Orks, Dark Eldar and 'Nids

Never has my avatar been more appropriate

They're the favourites of the favourite army.

From what I've seen, most hate towards the Ultramarines comes from the people that read the novels and take it to ridiculous extremes as if what is written by people like Gav Thrope, Aaron Dembski-Bowden and William King are scripture in a bible. All authors who retroactively rewrite canon whenever it suits them... If a book says the Ultramarines are goodie goodie and it takes a big strong Wolf to get the job done right, some people are going to say that as if it were fact. That's just the nature of enjoying a topic that has many versions and more ways to enjoy it. There's bound to be some friction in the fanbase.

Wait...
Someone named Matthew asking about Ultramarines hate and defending them? Doesn't anyone find this suspicious?

A lot of Ultramarines hatred is thanks to Matthew Ward and his 5th editon Codex: Space Marines (also known as Codex: Ultramarines). It is supposed to be about all Space Marines, but instead it reads like some silly Ultramarines fanfiction.
Read the 1d4chan pages on Ultramarines and Matt Ward, and you will understand.

Oh, and the other characters too. This is from D4Chan, so worth taking with a pinch of salt.

Papa Smurf, the current Chapter Master of the Ultramarines. His accomplishments include being thoroughly ripped apart by the Swarmlord (by that we mean all his limbs, a large portion of his body and his eye), single handedly holding off an Ork Waaagh! for 9 days all by himself and killing a Daemon Prince with only a squad of Terminators by stabbing him with a warp-touched dagger An Anathame shard named "The Shard of Erebus". However, his crowning moment is his defeat of an Eldar Avatar of Khaine in 1 vs 1, hand-to-hand combat, which is typically killed by the same effort it takes to kill a Khornate Bloodthirster - never mind that the thing is made of molten metal and over three times his size. He also had a rematch with the Swarmlord and won.

Then we move onto Cato Sicarius...

He's one of the many fluff-based complaints against Matt Ward, due to rather unbelievable feats such as using a company armed only with combat knives to hold off 10,000 orks, or somehow repelling one million Tau army with only thousand marines, which is even more unbelievable. You know, when you get outnumbered 1000 to 1, no matter how superhuman your soldiers are, they have no chances, even against grots, not to mention tough as nails angry warmonger barbarians or high-tech space communists with an unholy amount of firepower.

I've written a few long-form explanations of this phenomena (as observed by a guy who's followed 40K for way, way too long (think I started in 1992, ouch).

But the end of it is that 20 years ago, the original creators of 40K decided that the Ultramarines were "the greatest of all Space Marine chapters" and people were upset that their favorite color of Space Marines didn't get chosen.

Ultramarines hate didn't start with Mat Ward and the 5th Edition codex. That was just the latest in a long line of griping neckbeards looking for a reason to grumble about not liking blue Space Marines, and that red or gray or yellow or something should have been chosen instead. Way back in 2nd Edition, the Ultramarines were just considered "boring" because Codex: Ultramarines (what became Codex: Space Marines in later editions) was the "generic" codex, and it lacked a lot of the more unique (and often overpowered) units that other codex armies like Blood Angels or Space Wolves had. Thus the term "vanilla" was born.

The reality is that huge swathes of fluff from the Mat Ward Codex (and the 4th Edition one too) were basically copy/paste jobs from the previous Codex: Ultramarines. Rick Priestley wrote most of those books' content in the early 90s. Mat Ward simply made slight changes to it, and put a slight Ultramarines twist on the language. Which is fair, since Codex: Space Marines was basically the Ultramarines' book from 2nd-5th Edition (all the paint guides are Ultramarines, for example).

The other thing is the "Left Out Chapters" fans get angsty about not getting their own books. In 1991, Games Workshop decided on a "Big Four" (their own words). Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves and Ultramarines, and for some reason, the only chapter nobody has ever forgiven are the Ultramarines. You'll see people rant and rave about how the Ultramarines get all the attention in Codex: Space Marines, but will never be able to explain how that's bad, but it's okay that Blood Angels, Dark Angels, and Space Wolves (and previously, the Black Templars) got their own books.

So yeah, it kinda all boils down to "Haters gonna hate", lol.

 ChazSexington wrote:
Oh, and the other characters too. This is from D4Chan, so worth taking with a pinch of salt.

Papa Smurf, the current Chapter Master of the Ultramarines. His accomplishments include being thoroughly ripped apart by the Swarmlord (by that we mean all his limbs, a large portion of his body and his eye), single handedly holding off an Ork Waaagh! for 9 days all by himself and killing a Daemon Prince with only a squad of Terminators by stabbing him with a warp-touched dagger An Anathame shard named "The Shard of Erebus". However, his crowning moment is his defeat of an Eldar Avatar of Khaine in 1 vs 1, hand-to-hand combat, which is typically killed by the same effort it takes to kill a Khornate Bloodthirster - never mind that the thing is made of molten metal and over three times his size. He also had a rematch with the Swarmlord and won.

Then we move onto Cato Sicarius...

He's one of the many fluff-based complaints against Matt Ward, due to rather unbelievable feats such as using a company armed only with combat knives to hold off 10,000 orks, or somehow repelling one million Tau army with only thousand marines, which is even more unbelievable. You know, when you get outnumbered 1000 to 1, no matter how superhuman your soldiers are, they have no chances, even against grots, not to mention tough as nails angry warmonger barbarians or high-tech space communists with an unholy amount of firepower.

Why do you quote from something that's nearly the equivalent to encylapedia dramatica?

Matthew wrote:
I have lately been seeing that alot of people don't really like, or should I say hate, the Ultramarines.
Why? I think they're cool, not too overused, and they're the Space marines!
If we have any Ultramarines haters, please answer my question!

Ultramarines were heavily overused in 4th and especially 5th edition, when they were in starter set and as said, quite fanboyish Codex: Space Marines. Though in fairness, in that book only fluff was fanboyish, rules weren't anywhere so OTT.

It's not so bad anymore, when Dark Angels are the new poster boys.

 Paradigm wrote:
People don't look deep enough, and assume that because they are the paragons of the codex astartes, they are therefore the 'best'. What a lot of people don't realise is that this is as much a curse as a blessing, as if they encounter something not part of that doctrine, they are out of their depth. For example, in the Heresy they took a beating at Calth as they simply did not know how to fight other Marines.

The y are also a monument to the failure of the Imperium. In same the system as a whole is almost the antithesis of what the Emperor wanted, the codex has become a dogmatic doctrine. When Gulliman wrote it he wanted it to be a guideline, not a religion, and would despair at what it has become.

Also, welcome to Dakka!

The problem is that, at least in the 41st millenium, the Ultramarines are defined as the most flexible force able to adapt to anything with a battle doctrine that cover every possible situation.

 Paradigm wrote:
People don't look deep enough, and assume that because they are the paragons of the codex astartes, they are therefore the 'best'. What a lot of people don't realise is that this is as much a curse as a blessing, as if they encounter something not part of that doctrine, they are out of their depth. For example, in the Heresy they took a beating at Calth as they simply did not know how to fight other Marines.

The y are also a monument to the failure of the Imperium. In same the system as a whole is almost the antithesis of what the Emperor wanted, the codex has become a dogmatic doctrine. When Gulliman wrote it he wanted it to be a guideline, not a religion, and would despair at what it has become.

This is actually about 100% incorrect, so I would suggest disregarding it.

Calth happened before the publishing of the Codex. However, even if it hadn't been, it would have been irrelevant. The Ultramarines took a beating at Calth because they had no reason to suspect a treacherous sneak attack from fellow Space Marines. But anyone who has read Know No Fear and the older IA:WB article knows that the Ultramarines, once they recovered from the initial shock, pasted the Word Bearers.

The Tyranids also didn't appear in the Codex, and yet the Ultramarines basically were the principal effort in stopping two entire Hive Fleets so far.


The Codex Astartes get woefully misrepresented by fans, and it's not entirely their fault because some of these ideas are spread by goofballs who don't know what they're doing like Graham McNeill, lol. The original references to the Codex Astartes as being restrictive talk about the organizational and recruiting directives being strict. As in 10 companies of 100 guys, with a guideline for how to recruit and when to perform implantations, etc. When the original fluff talks about the tactics and strategy portion of the codex, the language talks about it being thousands of pages with advice on how to fight wars on basically any terrain, any environment, and against any kind of enemy. It's not some kind of idiotic "If A, then B" instruction manual for dummies like it occasionally gets written to be by people who don't know what they're talking about.

Case in point, in 2nd Edition, army commanders had a Strategy Rating, from 1-6. Only two characters had a 6. The Dark Angels Chapter Master, and Calgar, CM of the UM. Calgar was defined as one of the greatest tacticians in the Imperium. I mean, if the Ultramarines were hardcore followers of the Codex, but following the Codex was a bad thing, and yet the Ultramarines Chapter Master is one of the greatest tacticians alive, imagine how bad everyone else must be.

You know, it's kind of odd. I came in, painted a few Ultramarines, kind of dropped them for other armies before coming back. They aren't my favorite SM chapter. I like Lamentors, Raptors, Storm Giants, Salamanders, and Black Templar more, but I'd actually like a SM army and wouldn't pass by the chance to have one.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

 Paradigm wrote:
People don't look deep enough, and assume that because they are the paragons of the codex astartes, they are therefore the 'best'. What a lot of people don't realise is that this is as much a curse as a blessing, as if they encounter something not part of that doctrine, they are out of their depth. For example, in the Heresy they took a beating at Calth as they simply did not know how to fight other Marines.

The y are also a monument to the failure of the Imperium. In same the system as a whole is almost the antithesis of what the Emperor wanted, the codex has become a dogmatic doctrine. When Gulliman wrote it he wanted it to be a guideline, not a religion, and would despair at what it has become.

This is actually about 100% incorrect, so I would suggest disregarding it.

Calth happened before the publishing of the Codex. However, even if it hadn't been, it would have been irrelevant. The Ultramarines took a beating at Calth because they had no reason to suspect a treacherous sneak attack from fellow Space Marines. But anyone who has read Know No Fear and the older IA:WB article knows that the Ultramarines, once they recovered from the initial shock, pasted the Word Bearers.

The Tyranids also didn't appear in the Codex, and yet the Ultramarines basically were the principal effort in stopping two entire Hive Fleets so far.


The Codex Astartes get woefully misrepresented by fans, and it's not entirely their fault because some of these ideas are spread by goofballs who don't know what they're doing like Graham McNeill, lol. The original references to the Codex Astartes as being restrictive talk about the organizational and recruiting directives being strict. As in 10 companies of 100 guys, with a guideline for how to recruit and when to perform implantations, etc. When the original fluff talks about the tactics and strategy portion of the codex, the language talks about it being thousands of pages with advice on how to fight wars on basically any terrain, any environment, and against any kind of enemy. It's not some kind of idiotic "If A, then B" instruction manual for dummies like it occasionally gets written to be by people who don't know what they're talking about.

Case in point, in 2nd Edition, army commanders had a Strategy Rating, from 1-6. Only two characters had a 6. The Dark Angels Chapter Master, and Calgar, CM of the UM. Calgar was defined as one of the greatest tacticians in the Imperium. I mean, if the Ultramarines were hardcore followers of the Codex, but following the Codex was a bad thing, and yet the Ultramarines Chapter Master is one of the greatest tacticians alive, imagine how bad everyone else must be.

Yeah, pretty much this. Frankly, the fact that the Ultramarines weren't killed by one hell of a backstab from supposedly allied forces is a testament to their strength. They were in the middle of packing up to go to war, and the Word Bearers had everything perfectly set up to do massive damage from the start. The Ultramarines started with their Primarch space-defenestrated, their orbital weapons grid seized, their entire C&C network destroyed, their fleet powered down, their companies isolated, and facing two enemies they'd never previously engaged in combat (Marines and daemons). They still found the victory.

 ChazSexington wrote:

Space Marine Codex, 5th Edition wrote:"Chapters [not descended from Guilliman's geneseed] are disciples who owe their genetic inheritance to another Primarch, but follow the Codex Astartes as keenly as their divergent heritage allows. While primarily composed of successor Chapters, this group also includes several Chapters of the First Founding - notably the Imperial Fists, White Scars and the Raven Guard. These chapters can never be Ultramarines, for their gene-seed is not that of Roboute Guilliman. Nevertheless, they will ever aspire to the standards and teachings of the great Primarch.

[Chapters who do not emulate the Ultramarines] are aberrants; chapters who, through quirk of gene-seed, mutation or stubbornness, eschew the Codex Astartes in favor of other structural and combat doctrines. Some, such as the Blood Angels and their successors, strive to be worthy of Guilliman's legacy, but their recalcitrant gene-seed drives them ever further from it. Others, such as the Space Wolves and the Black Templars, remain stubbornly independent, looking to their own founder's ways of war and caring little of how they fare in the eyes of others. These aberrant Chapters were always few in number and their presence diminishes with each passing decade, for their gene-seed is no longer the source of fresh Chapters."

This. This is why.

Is that seriously written in the codex?

Umm, yeah, no wonder people hate Ultras

Back in 2nd edition I remember people calling them smurfs a lot, but I always just assumed it was due to the comical nature of having a bright blue army as the poster boys for 40k, I never really read in to it. Never had a lot of interest in the Ultras so I didn't really get in to their fluff.

To make it short.. Over the top fluff and they are the poster boys for Space Marines.

They have been toned a lot, which is helping their public relations.

What I dislike most about the Ultramarines is that their name is bad pun, which makes it difficult to take them seriously. Then you watch the Ultramarines movie, and it's so painfully crap on so many levels...

 Smacks wrote:
What I dislike most about the Ultramarines is that their name is bad pun, which makes it difficult to take them seriously. Then you watch the Ultramarines movie, and it's so painfully crap on so many levels...

Oh man that movie was awful. So much voice acting talent for such an awful script, not even getting into the massively outdated CGI.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Smacks wrote:
What I dislike most about the Ultramarines is that their name is bad pun, which makes it difficult to take them seriously. Then you watch the Ultramarines movie, and it's so painfully crap on so many levels...

Oh man that movie was awful. So much voice acting talent for such an awful script, not even getting into the massively outdated CGI.

What about the astartes-pattern walking excercises that filled up most of it?

I think the less remembered about the movie the better

Just like the swarm-attacking Chaos Space Marine hordes...

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:


Why do you quote from something that's nearly the equivalent to encylapedia dramatica?

Because there's nothing factually incorrect about it?

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
*SNIP*

I partially agree with this; I used to play Sons of Medusa back in the late 90's and people didn't exactly like the Ultramarines then, because as you've stated, they were pretty bland. However, the hate has grown by leaps and bound ever since, much thanks to Matt Ward. The whole spiritual liege thing was OTT though - ask the Space Wolves, Minotaurs, Black Templars or loads of other Chapters exactly whether they consider the Codex Astartes sacrosanct and Rawbutt their spiritual liege.

There's a reason why the Black Templars need so many Marines.

They can't get the job done with less.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:


Why do you quote from something that's nearly the equivalent to encylapedia dramatica?

From the warhammer 40k wiki

These achievements include: leading the breaching assault on the Tyranid Hive Ship Behemoth Primus, single-handedly holding the gate against an Ork horde for a night and a day at the Siege of Zalathrax, defeating an Eldar Avatar of Khaine in single combat, thus leading to the rout of Eldar forces at the Battle for Orar's Sepulchre in 888.M41, and recapturing the star fort Indomitable from the daemonic hordes of M'kar the Reborn, who he then supposedly cast back into the Warp with the help of the Inquisition.

When he came face-to-face with the Swarmlord, he was on the verge of death, yet still would not yield. Locked in a mortal duel, they fought like mythic gods, and though Calgar struck with his last ounce of strength, he was laid low by the monster's blades.

Marneus Calgar, having narrowly escaped death at the hands of the Swarmlord during their confrontation on Macragge, faces the reincarnation of the same beast on the blood-soaked fields. This time, however, Calgar triumphs, slaying the beast with his bare hands.

In one of his most notable feats, in 797.M41, during the defence of the hive city of Zalathras, Marneus Calgar held the gates alone against an entire Ork horde for a night and a day.

Heavy weapons fire seemed only to anger the creature, and the Ultramarines' battle line buckled beneath its onslaught, so Calgar issued a challenge himself. The fiery god bellowed with fury, its first blow missing the Ultramarines' Chapter Master by a hair's breadth. The second tore plates from Calgar's armour. A third bit deep into his shoulder, driving the Chapter Master to one knee. But the fourth slammed into the armoured palm of Calgar's left hand. Rising up, Calgar struck with all his strength, bringing his other gauntlet around in a mighty arc that punched clean through the molten ichor of the Avatar's torso. With the fall of their war god, the Eldar lost all heart and retreated.

Calgar defeated M'kar in single combat, but M'kar's hatred of the Imperium and Ultramar was so strong that it was not possible to banish him to the Warp, even with the help of the Inquisition.

Because there's nothing factually incorrect about it?

Edit - Realised he held off an Ork Waaaaagh for 24 hours, not 9 days, my bad.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
*SNIP*

I partially agree with this; I used to play Sons of Medusa back in the late 90's and people didn't exactly like the Ultramarines then, because as you've stated, they were pretty bland. However, the hate has grown by leaps and bound ever since, much thanks to Matt Ward. The whole spiritual liege thing was OTT though - ask the Space Wolves, Minotaurs, Black Templars or loads of other Chapters exactly whether they consider the Codex Astartes sacrosanct and Rawbutt their spiritual liege.

I just really hate blue.

Honestly I have no other reason for disliking the Ultramarines

 Vaktathi wrote:
I think the less remembered about the movie the better

Just like the swarm-attacking Chaos Space Marine hordes...

I watched it slightly drunk with my friend, and we got some pretty decent running jokes out of it. My favorite being: "A [insert anything] is like a double edged sword" in Terence Stamp's voice.