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Hello everyone,

I am looking at getting myself and my six year old into Warmahordes. He'll probably just play a game or two with me every week but I intend on being able to actually play at a FLGS every now and then.

My dilemma I'm running in to is I cannot find that army for me. Aesthetically, Menoth and Everblight look great but I am obsessed with survivability. So much so that in 40k my army was 20+ Dark Angels Terminators with Thunder Hammers and Stormshields with a Belial. I don't care much about mobility or dishing or massive damage (although it never hurts) but I literally want an army I can slog across a board and not really have to worry about them being taken down.

Doesn't seem to exist in this game as far as I can find. But, I'm also a new player just googling for information. So, does this type of army exist?

Menoth- Arguably best heavy troops in warmachine, mass of bodies/ warjacks style of tankiness
Khador- Impossible to hit light infantry, heavily armored shock troops, BIG SCARY JACKS(mainly infantry faction though)
Trollbloods- best heavy infantry in hordes best tanking warbeasts in the game, warbeasts can regenerate for LULZ.
Circle- They can run stone and wood warbeasts that make people cry at their amazing armor. A four point beast(5 average for lights) Can get up to armor 24 under eBaldur(average armor 16 for lights)

Don't rule out the rhul (sorry...)

Dem dwarves build their jacks sturdy , if slow...

 stalkerzero wrote:
Hello everyone,

I am looking at getting myself and my six year old into Warmahordes. He'll probably just play a game or two with me every week but I intend on being able to actually play at a FLGS every now and then.

My dilemma I'm running in to is I cannot find that army for me. Aesthetically, Menoth and Everblight look great but I am obsessed with survivability. So much so that in 40k my army was 20+ Dark Angels Terminators with Thunder Hammers and Stormshields with a Belial. I don't care much about mobility or dishing or massive damage (although it never hurts) but I literally want an army I can slog across a board and not really have to worry about them being taken down.

Doesn't seem to exist in this game as far as I can find. But, I'm also a new player just googling for information. So, does this type of army exist?

'Tank' factions as you describe don't really exist here, sorry. There are 'hard' factions, and most factions have access to 'hard' builds, but ultimately, warmachine is built on the premise that everything can be taken down. The attacking power in this game is higher than most defendive powers. The idea of 2+ inv? safe deathstars really has no place here. For what it's worth, menoth are particularly obnoxious.

That said, there are plenty wags of slogging across the board and not worrying about bring taken down. Thing is, it's warmachine, not 40k. Think differently. Change your perception.

Use of Spells that buff defence.
High armour that helps mitigate received damage.
Abilities that let you ignore ranged attacks altogether, like stealth, or passage.
Use of cover and spells that perform the same thing.

Ultimately though, this is a game where things die. If there are more than a handful of models on the table at the end, you're doing it wrong.

Deadnight wrote:

*snip a bunch of really good information*

Ultimately though, this is a game where things die.

Very important part of the game. Your favorite character is very unlikely to live. Or, in a long game, anything for that matter.

FoWPlayerDeathOfUS.TDs wrote:

Trollbloods- best heavy infantry in hordes

I'm going to go ahead and disagree with you and agree with pretty much everyone on the PP boards.

Gatormen posse are the best heavy infantry in the game. ARM 16(18 when engaged), extra SPD when charging living models, Fearless, 2 attacks(1 with Reach), with the option for increased DEF, Pathfinder, or re-rolling misses against living models and easy access to Tough.

I've yet to find a Trollblood unit I'd prefer over them if most of their buffs were Friendly rather than Friendly Faction.

 Platuan4th wrote:

FoWPlayerDeathOfUS.TDs wrote:

Trollbloods- best heavy infantry in hordes

I'm going to go ahead and disagree with you and agree with pretty much everyone on the PP boards.

Gatormen posse are the best heavy infantry in the game. ARM 16(18 when engaged), extra SPD when charging living models, Fearless, 2 attacks(1 with Reach), with the option for increased DEF, Pathfinder, or re-rolling misses against living models and easy access to Tough.

I've yet to find a Trollblood unit I'd prefer over them if most of their buffs were Friendly rather than Friendly Faction.

Not to mention they now have access to Blessed (ignore spell DEF/ARM effects) with Jaga Jaga, Fury (+3 to damage rolls, -1 DEF) with Rask, and endless recursion with Maelock.

Blindwater may not do everything right, but they do heavy infantry very, very well.

Oops- always forget to include mercs and minions!

As has been said, no faction is tanky.

Cyriss, however are very good st mitigating damage and brining guys back to life.

Sim-Life wrote:
As has been said, no faction is tanky.

Pretty much. I will agree, though, that as a faction on the whole, Trolls are the closest to being the "tanky one", but playing The Brick™ gets old real fast.

Gatorman posses with Skorne Task masters are just fantastic.

Also, I'd like to point out that you do not want to get into circle thinking you're tough by any stretch of imagination. You get in, strike hard, and if they're still standing you get out of there. You try to hamfist your way through other armies with circle and you'll get stomped.

FoWPlayerDeathOfUS.TDs wrote:
Menoth- Arguably best heavy troops in warmachine, mass of bodies/ warjacks style of tankiness
Khador- Impossible to hit light infantry, heavily armored shock troops, BIG SCARY JACKS(mainly infantry faction though)
Trollbloods- best heavy infantry in hordes best tanking warbeasts in the game, warbeasts can regenerate for LULZ.
Circle- They can run stone and wood warbeasts that make people cry at their amazing armor. A four point beast(5 average for lights) Can get up to armor 24 under eBaldur(average armor 16 for lights)

You brought in two factions here which are anything but tanky. Khador can do it, but their heaviest infantry and warjacks will always be a minority of the faction. As for Circle, it's essentially one of the most glass cannony factions in the game. Nearly always when people say tanking they mean taking it on the chin and shrugging it off.

The fantastic thing about Warmahordes when coming from 40K is that you'll never run into a unit that you can't take down unless you've horribly skewed yourself. In 40K you usually run into situations where it's always unlikely to kill a model X and you have no recourse to change this - it's essentially a game that forces you to play skews while Warmahordes will usually punish you for playing skewed lists.

 Mahtamori wrote:

You brought in two factions here which are anything but tanky. Khador can do it, but their heaviest infantry and warjacks will always be a minority of the faction. As for Circle, it's essentially one of the most glass cannony factions in the game. Nearly always when people say tanking they mean taking it on the chin and shrugging it off.
.

I disagree.

Firstly. Khador heavy infantry is top tier, and very solid. The stock of iron fangs, and especially black dragon iron fangs has gone up considerably in the last year, the latter especially so with butcher 3. For many people, they're more popular than the older go-to choices of high def kayazy and winter guard. Potential Arm22, immunity to stationary and knockdown, shield march (from the if kovnik) and precision strike meAn they're worth their weight in gold a lot of the time.

Men o war need support but whilst niche, and not often seen can be very effective game pieces with the right build. Irusk2 runs them extremely well. They'll never win a game, but they're a great anchor around which the rest of the list works. If only they had desperate pace...

And don't discount uhlans or man o war drakhuns. Charge of the horse lords is a thing. And those drakhuns are as solid as anything.

With regard to their jacks, though khador are primarily a 1-2jack faction, those clam jacks (arm25) are brilliant scenario pieces and great at clearing infantry. They see a lot of play in steamroller.

Secondly with circle, whilst arguably they are primarily a (very effective) glass cannon/alphastrike/hit and run faction, they have some surprisingly durable builds. Skin walkers with an arm buff come to mind as an incredibly obnoxious tarpit(arm20 + 8 wounds with inviolable resolve, for example). Ravagers are ok. But Both shine with epic morvahna bringing them all back a second time. The cur I'd wolds too, are nothing to,scoff at. They are very bricky, and even more so when run by baldur and his ability to heal them. The nature of fury means these builds are extremely effective at soaking damage.

I have no doubts whatsoever that circle and khador have a lot of options that mean they can take it on the chin and keep swinging.

I think there's a slight discrepancy in what I meant and what you read. With heaviest I do mean Man-o-Wars and not their medium based infantry (and with Iron Fang I've only had limited experience so far, as it turns out a unit of Battle Mages under Rahn's feat is fairly good at disassembling them).

It's less a matter of "can this faction build an army list containing extremely durable troops" and more a question of "is this common and stereotypical for the faction?"
And with cherry picking the toughest and best lists I wouldn't stick Circle or Khador out there. If you got a question like "I like tanky and I like Khador" then I'd suggest specific lists within Khador.

 Mahtamori wrote:
I think there's a slight discrepancy in what I meant and what you read. With heaviest I do mean Man-o-Wars and not their medium based infantry (and with Iron Fang I've only had limited experience so far, as it turns out a unit of Battle Mages under Rahn's feat is fairly good at disassembling them).

It's less a matter of "can this faction build an army list containing extremely durable troops" and more a question of "is this common and stereotypical for the faction?"
And with cherry picking the toughest and best lists I wouldn't stick Circle or Khador out there. If you got a question like "I like tanky and I like Khador" then I'd suggest specific lists within Khador.

Everything has counters. Even then, I'd argue in your case, even with boosted pow10s thanks to the feat. against arm22 its coming up short quite a bit. (You need 13s.) And that's with no other defensive tech (cover, concealment, iron flesh etc).I faced down an epic lyllith army the other day (she utterly murders infantry) and it could barely scratch them, outside of massed cra's. And to be correct you (I'm sure it's a typo) mow are the medium bases, iron fangs are small. Still, arm22 is pretty heavy. And iron fangs are solid heavy infantry.

And with respect, I'm not 'cherry picking' anything. You claimed that khador and circle are anything but tanky. I'm disagreeing, and explaining why with reference to our unit choices. Nothing niche here.

Like I said, with regard to khador - iron fangs are currently extremely popular, and turn up in a lot of lists. Double black dragon is a staple with butcher 3, who is every khadorans favourite caster. Fact is, a lot of the options I listed are far from niche. Iron fangs, devestators et al. - They're 'common And syereotypical' by any definition and see a good deal of play across the board, and synergise well with pretty much every one of our casters, whilst offering very solid offensive tech against pretty much every other faction. Khador is not defined by 'spam the high defense hijinks' anymore.

Similarly, skinwalkers are hugely popular circle infantry choices and make it into a lot of lists - especially with the love epic morvahna gives them. They're fantastic at holding zones in steamroller. Second to none, in faction. Their ua turns them up to 11 in a lot of ways (regen trick, extra attack et ). And whilst never a number 1, baldur has no real bad match ups, and is always a solid well rounded choice, well regarded, and always quietly popular and never out of favour. He is a fairly common drop against most factions. His wold theme list gets played quite a bit. Again, everything here are 'common and stereotypical' options.

Look at Convergence of Cyriss. You want to run a bunch of heavy jacks? There you go. My army's mostly jacks with support. Also, they have tough as nails 8 hit point infantry that can be brought back to life by another unit. They're machine worshiping, Lovecraftian cultists, what's not to love?

Amazed that no one has mentioned Skorne...

If you played Deathwing then you can play Fist of Halaak (Unlimited and cheaper "terminator" models) and swamp the enemy with 30+ heavy infantry in 50 points games.

http://battlecollege.wikispaces.com/mkiiXerxis
http://battlecollege.wikispaces.com/mkiiCataphractArcuarii
http://battlecollege.wikispaces.com/mkiiCataphractCetrati
http://battlecollege.wikispaces.com/Cataphract+Incindiarii

That said, it's a very very $$$ army to play, but not to worry as some other Skorne casters have a great spell that gives Defenders Ward (+2DEF/+2ARM). Cast that on a unit of Cetratii in Shield Wall and they're DEF 14/ ARM22. Then add other softer elements that can hide behind them. Have a Krea close by and they're up to DEF16/ ARM24 vs. shooting.

http://battlecollege.wikispaces.com/mkiiBasiliskKrea

With PMakeda, Tyrant Commander (and may need Aptimus Marketh) you can have a Cetrati unit scoot 12" up the table in Shield wall and then get warded. That's a very fast and very solid anvil to grab the centre early and hopefully hold it.
http://battlecollege.wikispaces.com/mkiiMakeda
http://battlecollege.wikispaces.com/mkiiTyrantCommander
http://battlecollege.wikispaces.com/Aptimus+Marketh

Hope that gives you some good info. I think that Skorne are the closest you're going to get to a Deathwing style army.

If the $$$ cost puts you off, Skorne also run beast heavy very well. They have Paingivers who can make the beasts extra hitty, heal them or strip off fury to stop them frenzying.
http://battlecollege.wikispaces.com/mkiiPaingivers

They also field some of the hardest beasts in Hordes/ WM.
http://battlecollege.wikispaces.com/Tiberion
http://battlecollege.wikispaces.com/mkiititan+sentry

With Xerxis and a Krea (So not in Fist of Halaak tier) you can get either of these guys up to ARM25 (ARM 27 vs. shooting) on feat turn. That's about as tanky as you get in WMH.

Khador has a rep for being tanky, but the Man O Wars are overcosted and the jacks are not supported that well.

That said, I do really like one of their jacks. And there's been an erratta so you can keep them closed up and still do cool stuff with them.
http://battlecollege.wikispaces.com/Demolisher

Gaz

Deadnight wrote:

 Mahtamori wrote:
I think there's a slight discrepancy in what I meant and what you read. With heaviest I do mean Man-o-Wars and not their medium based infantry (and with Iron Fang I've only had limited experience so far, as it turns out a unit of Battle Mages under Rahn's feat is fairly good at disassembling them).

It's less a matter of "can this faction build an army list containing extremely durable troops" and more a question of "is this common and stereotypical for the faction?"
And with cherry picking the toughest and best lists I wouldn't stick Circle or Khador out there. If you got a question like "I like tanky and I like Khador" then I'd suggest specific lists within Khador.

Everything has counters. Even then, I'd argue in your case, even with boosted pow10s thanks to the feat. against arm22 its coming up short quite a bit. (You need 13s.) And that's with no other defensive tech (cover, concealment, iron flesh etc).I faced down an epic lyllith army the other day (she utterly murders infantry) and it could barely scratch them, outside of massed cra's. And to be correct you (I'm sure it's a typo) mow are the medium bases, iron fangs are small. Still, arm22 is pretty heavy. And iron fangs are solid heavy infantry.

And with respect, I'm not 'cherry picking' anything. You claimed that khador and circle are anything but tanky. I'm disagreeing, and explaining why with reference to our unit choices. Nothing niche here.

Like I said, with regard to khador - iron fangs are currently extremely popular, and turn up in a lot of lists. Double black dragon is a staple with butcher 3, who is every khadorans favourite caster. Fact is, a lot of the options I listed are far from niche. Iron fangs, devestators et al. - They're 'common And syereotypical' by any definition and see a good deal of play across the board, and synergise well with pretty much every one of our casters, whilst offering very solid offensive tech against pretty much every other faction. Khador is not defined by 'spam the high defense hijinks' anymore.

Similarly, skinwalkers are hugely popular circle infantry choices and make it into a lot of lists - especially with the love epic morvahna gives them. They're fantastic at holding zones in steamroller. Second to none, in faction. Their ua turns them up to 11 in a lot of ways (regen trick, extra attack et ). And whilst never a number 1, baldur has no real bad match ups, and is always a solid well rounded choice, well regarded, and always quietly popular and never out of favour. He is a fairly common drop against most factions. His wold theme list gets played quite a bit. Again, everything here are 'common and stereotypical' options.

Yes, the base size was a mistake, less typo and more inexperience with Khador diversity. What I do still react on is that under those criteria is that it still feels like you are trying to apply a label to a faction as a whole based on a smaller subset of lists? Do you feel that those examples are typical for what you can expect from those factions? Or are those lists specific, i.e. examples of what the faction can do, but not what the faction usually do best?

I also wrote a longer reply initially, but deleted in favour of less wall-like text. My experience with Iron Fang so far was... Pushed and pulled them apart leaving Shield Wall useless and left about 2 still alive, then Force Hammered a 'jack into Sorsha and charge her with a Mage Hunter Assassin, landing 20+ damage on her. I felt bad for wasting so much time killing Iron Fangs.

 Mahtamori wrote:

Yes, the base size was a mistake, less typo and more inexperience with Khador diversity. What I do still react on is that under those criteria is that it still feels like you are trying to apply a label to a faction as a whole based on a smaller subset of lists? Do you feel that those examples are typical for what you can expect from those factions? Or are those lists specific, i.e. examples of what the faction can do, but not what the faction usually do best?

I also wrote a longer reply initially, but deleted in favour of less wall-like text. My experience with Iron Fang so far was... Pushed and pulled them apart leaving Shield Wall useless and left about 2 still alive, then Force Hammered a 'jack into Sorsha and charge her with a Mage Hunter Assassin, landing 20+ damage on her. I felt bad for wasting so much time killing Iron Fangs.

Because you are doing the same, and trying to define khador by one of it's other 'subset of lists'.

Because on the whole, khador has a lot of high armour options that make it into a lot more than 'a small subset' of lists. Secondly, regarding the comment about 'what factions run best', don't be fooled into thinking factions are easily defined by one thing. Just because khador do defense buffs rather than arm buffs, don't make the mistake of thinking they're all about the former instead of the latter. Their armour is naturally high, meaning they're naturally more capable of risking things on the chin and hitting back harder. 'Specific lists' might reinforce this greatly, but on the whole, khador is naturally a tough faction. And as mentioned, khador does heavy infantry very, very well.

With respect, I also think you're being a bit disingenuous and short sighted here, if I'm being honest. Not everything about a faction needs to be about one thing in order for it to qualify as a 'thing' faction. Does khador have high armour units? Yes. Does khador have low armour units? Yes, it does. Does that mean khador is a High arm, or a low arm faction? Well, it's both. It can be either. Does this mean high arm factions are a 'smaller subset of lists' for khador, or are low arm/high def a 'smaller subset of lists'. Or is it truer to say that khador can do both well, Or go somewhere in between? They're all khador. They're all what khador are about. Don't make the mistake of thinking factions are defined by one thing and that anything else is not indicative of them. The factions are simply too broad in abilities for that to be true on any level.

You originally described khador (and circle too) as 'anything but tanky', and yet, a lot of popular, and excellent tanky units, and tanky attritional builds that are available to them both, that in itself puts a lie to the statement. Furthermore, these builds are not just theory. They see table time. In fact, they're becoming more and more common. Circle are a hit and run faction, except when they are not. Same is true for khador. They're a def spamming faction only until the point when they're not, and they do a lot of other things besides,

Iron fangs are a staple. Their star has been rising since colossals. It's rare they don't make at least one of a players lists. Fact is, they work well with pretty much every one of our casters. They're consistently useful, and visible. High arm jacks are incredibly useful in scenario play. The drakhuns is an always popular choice. Uhlans have been becoming more and more popular too. They never seem to gain the spotlight, but heavy cavalry with arm17 pow16 lances with a 13" threat range is very useful. I've seen first hand how nasty a cavalry charge can be, with all those impact attacks. And Yes. Black dragons, butcher3 and the if kovnik have shaken up the khador meta in a big way, and gave khador a lot of ways to run heavy infantry well. Fact is, since collossals, the game has also leaned more towards high arm as a thing, and high def, khadors traditional staple is a lot less effective. There is a lot more high def, low arm hate, and auto hitting effects, as well as greater upkeep, and spell hate out there these days. 'Naturally hard' is what khador is, and that doesn't go away when the other guy casts bestial or purification.There is a reason that 'spam the winter guard and kayazy' is not really 'a thing' anymore. And it hasn't been 'the answer' for a long time now either. Now don't get me wrong. They're still good. They're still very, very useful. But they're not the single, all-defining aspect of the faction any more. Khador is simply more balanced these days.

Khador and Trolls(specific lists) have the highest overall base armor values and tough things. But stuff is still going to die, horribly, and in large numbers.

This is a game where 80-90% causalities in a game are par for the course. And if one side didn't get massacred, they probably massacred their opponent.

And while base armor is the highest, as Khador lack armor buffs other factions can actually beat or exceed them.


In this game, you survive by having meat shields absorb enemy charges and you then counter punch with your reserve forces. If a heavy charges another heavy it will either kill it or beat it within a few hit boxes of death. Nothing takes a charge, suffers nothing for it, and then counter punches back.

Generally, if stuff charges other stuff, the stuff that got charged is going to die. The game favors offense over defense. The best analog to a tanky army would be one which has a bunch of light infantry in front of its heavy hitters who are there to prevent the enemy from charging the heavy hitters till they can charge the enemy in return. Menoth is one of these factions. Light/medium infantry(elite, average, and fodder) who run interference for the slower jacks or heavy infantry to let them get into charge range safely against opponents who will be faster than you.

The Skorne "Fist" list of PXerxis can be very tanky, similar to the Trolls Miserable Meat Mountain. A great deal of medium based, heavily armed weapon masters with a good array of shield walls and buffs.