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Has anyone noticed any changes in the fluff from what was in the 5th edition codex? Draigo still carves a name into Mortarion's heart but there's no mention of the GK killing SoB for extra purity powers in the Bloodtide Returns entry.

They just mind wiped anyone who has knowledge about the bloodtide. It happened and theres no changing it.

That aside, I am glad thats gone from the books. For all the hate GKs got (mary sue, matt ward etc...) I really didnt mind except for the whole Khornate Knight thing.

djz05 wrote:the whole Khornate Knight thing

Heavens forbid that an Imperial warrior would actually do something like "the ends justify the means".

I mean, it's not like this is how the Imperium works in general, or anything.

 Lynata wrote:
Heavens forbid that an Imperial warrior would actually do something like "the ends justify the means".

I mean, it's not like this is how the Imperium works in general, or anything.

Sounds like you're reading some Peacehammer 40k from another dimension.

 Lynata wrote:

djz05 wrote:the whole Khornate Knight thing

Heavens forbid that an Imperial warrior would actually do something like "the ends justify the means".

I mean, it's not like this is how the Imperium works in general, or anything.

Maybe if there was some precedence, something it could be related to, it would be better. I mean, when I read 40K books, a lot of the times they mention things that I've never heard of and they don't really try to explain it, but that's okay because I can make a satisfying guess. But when the purest of the pure need extra pure blood to protect their purity, it seems a bit, uh, unnecessary. It's like bolting sheet metal to a tank.

When I read of Grey Knight killing witnesses, I just think "hey, it's grim dark and they're playing it up". When they bath in the blood of their allies, something is wrong.

 Lotet wrote:

 Lynata wrote:

djz05 wrote:the whole Khornate Knight thing

Heavens forbid that an Imperial warrior would actually do something like "the ends justify the means".

I mean, it's not like this is how the Imperium works in general, or anything.

Maybe if there was some precedence, something it could be related to, it would be better. I mean, when I read 40K books, a lot of the times they mention things that I've never heard of and they don't really try to explain it, but that's okay because I can make a satisfying guess. But when the purest of the pure need extra pure blood to protect their purity, it seems a bit, uh, unnecessary. It's like bolting sheet metal to a tank.

When I read of Grey Knight killing witnesses, I just think "hey, it's grim dark and they're playing it up". When they bath in the blood of their allies, something is wrong.

There is precedent for bolting sheet metal to a tanl; it gives it extra protection. Not much but it does. In the Horus Heresy the Mk V armour had sheets of plasteel and other lesser materials bonded onto the ceramite and adamantium to reinforce the armour vs Boltgun rounds. Plasteel isn't proof against bolters but it certainly slows them down enough to survive the shots.

The fluff you refer to is heavily exaggerated. The GK don't "bathe" in it. Its not like them lie in a puddle making blood angels (no joke intended). They use it to make a talisman of purity and annoint their armour. This could be as simple as mixing with some holy oil or blessing the blood or an actual talisman, and marking their armour with a sigil or hand wave. Stuff like that has been done for thousands of years in real life.
And what's this business about "Khornate Knights?" Because they use blood? So? Why does that make them Khornate?

http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Khornate_Knights

Blame 1d4chan but The reference just stuck and is easier to reference

My issue with that whole thing is why kill the sisters to use their blood for extra purity protection when:

A: Fluff says GK is the purest of the pure without anyone succumbing to chaos ever. SoB had an instance of sisters going chaos.
B: If all they needed was some blood to annoint talismans of purity, did they really need to kill ALL of the survivors? Why not just use a portion of their blood like from a knife cut? Does it have to be necessarily 1 human body's worth of blood = 1 talisman? There's no fluff I could find that says the GK uses blood sacrifices to annoint their armour in the first place.

A more sensible situation would be the GK killing the sisters just because they saw the whole bloodtide. It would still be grimdark, but nothing unusual at all. They've tried it with the first war of armageddon by attempting to euthanize/mind warp/kill the survivors of the war, and would have completed it if it werent for the Space Wolves.

djz05 wrote:
http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Khornate_Knights

Blame 1d4chan but The reference just stuck and is easier to reference

My issue with that whole thing is why kill the sisters to use their blood for extra purity protection when:

A: Fluff says GK is the purest of the pure without anyone succumbing to chaos ever. SoB had an instance of sisters going chaos.
B: If all they needed was some blood to annoint talismans of purity, did they really need to kill ALL of the survivors? Why not just use a portion of their blood like from a knife cut? Does it have to be necessarily 1 human body's worth of blood = 1 talisman? There's no fluff I could find that says the GK uses blood sacrifices to annoint their armour in the first place.

A more sensible situation would be the GK killing the sisters just because they saw the whole bloodtide. It would still be grimdark, but nothing unusual at all. They've tried it with the first war of armageddon by attempting to euthanize/mind warp/kill the survivors of the war, and would have completed it if it werent for the Space Wolves.

The fluff doesn't say that. It says that none have ever fallen. Not that they can't, but that they haven't.
This does both at once. They make sure there are no witnesses and get the blood they need. As for that fluff? You're reading it. Its the first instance but that doesn't make it wrong. If you recall what i said I said that in real life history, blood of an innocent has been associated with protection against the unholy in many religions for hundreds of years. This also ties into the killing of the SOB. If they had willingly gave up their blood and only a small bit it might not have worked. It is logical to assume that in order for it to work they needed the split blood of innocents.

Wouldn't the GKs own blood inside them work in a way?

 n0t_u wrote:
Wouldn't the GKs own blood inside them work in a way?

Yes, but that'd weaken them a bit because they use their own blood, draining their own body of it.

 thenoobbomb wrote:

 n0t_u wrote:
Wouldn't the GKs own blood inside them work in a way?

Yes, but that'd weaken them a bit because they use their own blood, draining their own body of it.

Then they should have just cut some blood out, eaten their daily nutrients and let their Space marine physiology top off their blood again.

 Lotet wrote:

 thenoobbomb wrote:

 n0t_u wrote:
Wouldn't the GKs own blood inside them work in a way?

Yes, but that'd weaken them a bit because they use their own blood, draining their own body of it.

Then they should have just cut some blood out, eaten their daily nutrients and let their Space marine physiology top off their blood again.

Seeing as they might've needed litres of blood, that'd make it a tad harder.

 thenoobbomb wrote:

 Lotet wrote:

 thenoobbomb wrote:

 n0t_u wrote:
Wouldn't the GKs own blood inside them work in a way?

Yes, but that'd weaken them a bit because they use their own blood, draining their own body of it.

Then they should have just cut some blood out, eaten their daily nutrients and let their Space marine physiology top off their blood again.

Seeing as they might've needed litres of blood, that'd make it a tad harder.

A few litres for each Knight? Couldn't they just pour 100-200ml into a paint tray and dab it onto their brothers?

 Lotet wrote:

 Lynata wrote:

djz05 wrote:the whole Khornate Knight thing

Heavens forbid that an Imperial warrior would actually do something like "the ends justify the means".

I mean, it's not like this is how the Imperium works in general, or anything.

Maybe if there was some precedence, something it could be related to, it would be better. I mean, when I read 40K books, a lot of the times they mention things that I've never heard of and they don't really try to explain it, but that's okay because I can make a satisfying guess. But when the purest of the pure need extra pure blood to protect their purity, it seems a bit, uh, unnecessary. It's like bolting sheet metal to a tank.

When I read of Grey Knight killing witnesses, I just think "hey, it's grim dark and they're playing it up". When they bath in the blood of their allies, something is wrong.

The GK have always, always, ALWAYS used the blackest of magics and the darkest of sorceries to do what they do and be what they are. These are not Boy Scouts in power armor. No, these are all, each and every one, potent psykers with mastery of the Immaterium, steeped in the ancient lores of the Daemon, in all its many guises, armed with the tools of sorcery, warfare, and faith, to combat the Darkness Conceptual.

They maintain purity through these actions. If you want to apply a bit of Christian mythology to it, it is the blood of the innocent that washes away sins.

n0t_u wrote:Wouldn't the GKs own blood inside them work in a way?

What might make some fans uncomfortable is that, perhaps, the GKs are less pure than the Sisters, and thus need the blood of the latter as paraphernalia.

Think about it. Grey Knights are all psykers, which is potential weakness #1 - that which makes them stronger simultaneously makes them a more tempting target, as their souls "burn brighter" and the doorway to the Warp works both ways. The Grey Knights are also burdened by the memories of their past, for unlike the Battle Sisters, they are no "blank slates" indoctrinated from birth, but teenagers recruited in a similar way to any other Space Marine Chapter in the Imperium, just with even more tests designed to sift out those deemed too weak in mind to join the ranks of the Knights. And lastly, the Grey Knights are compromised by their very own actions in service to the Ordo Malleus, as it stands to reason that the GKs are involved in quite a few massacres committed on loyal Imperial troops.

In contrast, the Sororitas are indeed "more innocent" (and the original source did say "blood of the innocent"), simply because they don't know any better.

Just to illustrate, I think this excerpt from a short story by Ben Counter explained the differences in thinking between a Marine and a Sister nicely:
"What curiously small creatures you are to present such a thorn in my side." The words roared and rumbled through the air, thick with dark amusement. "What little bundles of ignorant flesh. I am Parmenides, called the Vile, chosen Prince of Nurgle. I am the virus which the Plague God sends to infect your mortal worlds. I am the festering in your wounded empire. Do creatures as insignificant as yourselves have names too, I wonder?"
"Sergeant Castus of the Ultramarines, Second Company", the Marine replied in a defiant voice, as if he were trying to impress the daemon prince.
The horrific gaze turned to Aescarion, questioning.
"I would not give you my name, though it cost my soul", the Battle Sister snarled, and she gripped her axe tighter.
"Such a shame", Parmenides replied. "But the girl I can understand. Her mind is most infertile. What has she ever questioned? They teach her and she believes."

tl;dr: Marines are "too independent", and this extends to the Grey Knights. Whilst a potential boon in ordinary combat, it would also make it potentially more difficult to resist Chaos, as any bit of doubt in one's mind further weakens the "morale shield" of one's soul.
The way the Grey Knights are dealing with this is simple: Knowledge of the enemy's weapons, and fighting fire with fire. By using their arcane understanding of sorcery, they manage to eliminate their innate weaknesses entirely. Most of the time, it's sufficient to use various wards and sigils or whatever. Sometimes, more drastic measures have to be taken. Such as a blood sacrifice.

Grimdark.

Much of this obviously depends on interpretation, but all in all, I think this makes a whole lot more sense. Because frankly I don't see why the GKs should be better than the Primarchs otherwise.
I won't deny that I'm biased though - both because this makes the Sisters' involvement in the massacre something to actually be proud of as an SoB player (reinforcing the "purity bonus" of the army), and because I like to find possible explanations for alleged contradictions in GW's material (call it a fun mental exercise), as I like consistency.

The Grey Knights are also burdened by the memories of their past, for unlike the Battle Sisters, they are no "blank slates" indoctrinated from birth,

actually step one of creating a grey knight is to mind wipe them. they are indeed a blank slate

BrianDavion wrote:

The Grey Knights are also burdened by the memories of their past, for unlike the Battle Sisters, they are no "blank slates" indoctrinated from birth,

actually step one of creating a grey knight is to mind wipe them. they are indeed a blank slate

They still have memories of the past, just inaccessible. SOB are raised from birth or orphanage to embrace the Emperor. They have literally never known different. GK are recruited from Black Ships and the end of a firing squad's muzzles and everything else. They have known different at one point.

As shown in numerous sources, mind-wiping is rarely 100% effective (unless it turns them into a mindless vegetable). The fact remains, however, that the GK have a past, either as psychic humans before being selected for the Chapter, or as trainees before taking to the field as a fully-fledged Grey Knight. The indoctrination of Space Marines, of any Chapter, while considerable, is not to the same extent as the Sisters.

The Sisters, literally, know no differently.

BrianDavion wrote:actually step one of creating a grey knight is to mind wipe them. they are indeed a blank slate

Is this from the new Codex? Because I couldn't find anything like that in previous GW books. On the contrary, the 5E 'dex mentioned that they recruit from feral worlds specifically because the barbarians there have already developed a "mental toughness" as part of their lifestyle.
Needless to say, IF they were mindwiped, this mental toughness would be erased together with any other bits and pieces of their personality and memories, so ...

 Lynata wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:actually step one of creating a grey knight is to mind wipe them. they are indeed a blank slate

Is this from the new Codex? Because I couldn't find anything like that in previous GW books. On the contrary, the 5E 'dex mentioned that they recruit from feral worlds specifically because the barbarians there have already developed a "mental toughness" as part of their lifestyle.
Needless to say, IF they were mindwiped, this mental toughness would be erased together with any other bits and pieces of their personality and memories, so ...

It is part of the recent Emperors Gift novel - not sure if its in the Codex?

 Lynata wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:actually step one of creating a grey knight is to mind wipe them. they are indeed a blank slate

Is this from the new Codex? Because I couldn't find anything like that in previous GW books. On the contrary, the 5E 'dex mentioned that they recruit from feral worlds specifically because the barbarians there have already developed a "mental toughness" as part of their lifestyle.
Needless to say, IF they were mindwiped, this mental toughness would be erased together with any other bits and pieces of their personality and memories, so ...

5th Ed Codex. The other Space Marines certainly recruit from Deathworlds. GK recruit very differently.

They recruit by sending out old and crippled Gk. They have no longer the ability to fight but can perform administrative roles such as recruitment. They can get aboard Black Ships and recruit from their, recruit from other Chapter's pool of aspirants (some such as the Silver Skulls even set aside potentials for the GK and notify Chapter 666 of them) and even from rogue psyker children wandering the streets of a Hive. The recruiters do an initial screening to see if the potential has enough talent and control to be considered to become a Space Marine, and then a GK. If they were recruiting for another Chapter mention that the aspirant is/is not suitable for space marine gene-seed while they are in there.

They then bring them back to the Chapter where the Librarians properly test their mental and spiritual fortitude. To the limit.
The few dozen that pass, if that, then get a mindwipe to lock off their memories but they still have the same mental and psychic toughness. They are given a new name from the GK name book, each name linked to a specific Daemon's True Name. They are indoctrinated into GK culture and then put through their paces as Neophytes. They are put through many trials, tested on their physical prowess as all Space Marines are by the Brotherhood Champions, their tactical acumen by the Captains, their leadership capabilities by the Grand Masters, their intellect and psychic strength by the Librarians, their courage by the Paladins and given a thorough biological examination by the Apothecaries and examined as a potential Apothecary, tested on their technological affinity by Techmarines. They are taught to drive and plot each and every one of the Chapter's Vehicles, trained in all weaponry, from Swords, Halberds and Falchions to Hammers and Staves, to Stormbolters, Psycannons, Psilincers and Incinerators. They are trained to fight in both Power Armour and Terminator Armour, using Personal Teleporters and the very very best are then given a chance to try Dreadknight piloting, but there is no margin of error and the chances are they will only pilot one if no other pilots are available.They are set upon one last trial after all of that. If they survive, which according to the Codex, only 1 in a million in a million do, then and only then are they called a Grey Knight.

Thing is, I just read that paragraph, and it doesn't mention mindwipes. The only thing that could refer to it would be the "psycho-surgery" - but again, if they'd wipe their personalities and memories, it wouldn't make sense that the GKs are looking specifically for recruits whose minds are already toughened.

My mistake, there is no mindwipe. They are however, broken down and names removed until training is complete. Says so in the grey box on page 6 of the 5th ed Codex.

That's a rather different thing, though. Apart from the name-change, breaking someone down and rebuilding them into what you desire them to be is a fundamental part of all military training.

 Deadshot wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

The Grey Knights are also burdened by the memories of their past, for unlike the Battle Sisters, they are no "blank slates" indoctrinated from birth,

actually step one of creating a grey knight is to mind wipe them. they are indeed a blank slate

They still have memories of the past, just inaccessible. SOB are raised from birth or orphanage to embrace the Emperor. They have literally never known different. GK are recruited from Black Ships and the end of a firing squad's muzzles and everything else. They have known different at one point.

Just to interject: all Sisters are orphans of Imperial Servants (at least ones found free of taint because those kids who aren't found to be free of the taint of chaos are likely tossed into a large bonfire after being shot just to make sure). They're drawn from the Schola much like Storm Troopers and Commissars are. They're just chosen for being exceptionally faithful to the Emperor (and of course female), and that Faith is reinforced to the point that they'll push through the most lethal wounds to fight in his name. For Sisters there is only one kind of belief: zealous belief.

So not always from birth, but always an orphan.

 Psienesis wrote:
That's a rather different thing, though. Apart from the name-change, breaking someone down and rebuilding them into what you desire them to be is a fundamental part of all military training.

he missed an important part of that passage though. the Passage reads
"..In any case, once a Grey Knights Identity has been broken down and rebuilt during training, he is unlikely to remember his past"

that is suggestive that if they're not mind wiped they're at least subjected to some pretty heavy brainwashing

Is anyone in any of these elite forces of the Imperium not subject to heavy brainwashing?

Pretty sure the =I= has places on street-corners throughout the Imperium where, for an extra $10 at the pump, you can go through the automated brainwash-and-indoctrination machine they have off to the side there.

 Psienesis wrote:
Is anyone in any of these elite forces of the Imperium not subject to heavy brainwashing?

Pretty sure the =I= has places on street-corners throughout the Imperium where, for an extra $10 at the pump, you can go through the automated brainwash-and-indoctrination machine they have off to the side there.

Nah, The =I= doesn't have time for that. Besides, the Ecclesiarchy does a great job inspiring blind zealotry and faith in the Emperor wherever it goes.

BrianDavion wrote:"..In any case, once a Grey Knights Identity has been broken down and rebuilt during training, he is unlikely to remember his past"

Deadshot wrote:the grey box on page 6 of the 5th ed Codex

Thanks, this is indeed something I've missed

That said ... "unlikely". Personally, I could easily imagine the GKs committing to blood rituals to protect themselves if there's a risk, no matter how small, because they can't afford to take it. Maybe it wouldn't even have been necessary to sacrifice the Sisters, but they can't know it beforehand. What matters is that they are not invulnerable, so they have to take precautions. The wards and sigils are one step (already hinting at their minds and bodies not being enough by themselves), but sometimes, when faced with extraordinarily dangerous incursions, you just have to make sure.

ClockworkZion wrote:So not always from birth, but always an orphan.

Nah, it does indeed say "from infancy" in codex fluff (online proof here on GW's website).
Perhaps that is one of the major differences between them and Commissars or STs. And a reason for why they find it difficult to replace their casualties, and are slow to expand their numbers.

I noticed a number of Black Libary novel authors not sticking to this, though. So it depends on where you look.

 Lynata wrote:

ClockworkZion wrote:So not always from birth, but always an orphan.

Nah, it does indeed say "from infancy" in codex fluff (online proof here on GW's website).
Perhaps that is one of the major differences between them and Commissars or STs. And a reason for why they find it difficult to replace their casualties, and are slow to expand their numbers.

I noticed a number of Black Libary novel authors not sticking to this, though. So it depends on where you look.

I think the problem is more that GW keeps making VERY small changes to how Sisters are chosen. Every codex tweaks it just a little and the changes are completely unneeded. They just need to pick one and stick with it. At this rate I half expect the next codex to say they're left as infants on the steps of Ecclesiarchal churches and screened/raised and then chosen from there and sent off for training.