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In another thread I have "How do you start a company" for gaming. Now I am trying to think of scale. I understand why some games are in 10mm. It's great for large scale items like tanks and bigger to be fielded so you have sense of large scale or grand scale. Problem for that is smaller items like infantry troops are really tiny, and basically don't look nice, and is really hard to paint so they usually end up looking bad or just meh.

I love the detail that GW makes for their minis. Problem is now, for what started as a skirmish game is becoming a larger scale game like 10mm usually do. Problem with that is the vehicles like Tanks and larger, looses the large/grand scale of things. So I am trying to think now, how do you combine the two? Have the feeling of a large scale or long distance combat fitting in with infantry who have to hold all the objectives to claim victory points. For me, I would love for my infantry to look nice. You loose that in 10mm. So what if the Infantry were bigger and the tanks were slightly smaller? Is that acceptable? If so why? If not why? What do you like in your gaming experience?

VISUALLY: So when it comes to scale, what is important to you? Do miniatures have to be to scale from each other? Is it ok if infantry are bigger than they should be, but then you get the detail of how awesome looking they are compared to tanks/mechs/buildings?

GAMEPLAY:How about scale when it comes to combat? Does it matter if you have long range weaponry? Does it bother you that in some games, ranges are short and you say to yourself they should be longer?

How about both? How does game play come into how visually looking a miniature is? If you are saying each inch is 20 meters or one hex should the miniature be 50mm, 2", 3" or a certain height?

Basically what is scale for you?

Zvesda do 1/72 (~22mm) infantry and 15mm tanks in their WWII range, but personally I'm not so fond of that.

From the other topic, I guess your main beef with 10mm is the DZC infantry? Googling them, I don't think they're entirely bad. But then I generally like my small-scale sci-fi at 6mm.
That's the rub, though. You have to decide for yourself if you prefer an army made up of individual hyperdynamic 32-35mm heroes, or clash and manoeuvre of armoured forces. Do you want to cater for disgruntled ex-GWers still looking for a 40K style buzz, or are you looking to cast your net a bit wider? (Given the link, I could suggest trying both scales somewhere down the line, but you're already biting off a lot with one, at the mo)

As some in the other topic mentioned, have you thought about 15mm? It was popular in historical gaming way back, and it's seeing a resurgence in popularity - not just because of Flames of War, but also because it's seen as a decent compromise: obviously a cheaper option for metal minis (especially with skyrocketing tin prices a couple of years ago), more easily stored, and still allows a fair bit of detail and personality. (More than 6-10mm anyway) Not to mention more vehicles will fit on the tabletop...

Check out Khurasan Miniatures. Well, not directly at the mo, but see if you can google some of their products. It's one of the most acclaimed 15mm mini producers these days, with generally great quality. With the caveat, as also mentioned in the last topic, that the business doesn't make enough to be the owner's day job. (15mm's cheaper, but from the sound of things most of his punters want them dead cheap, and his margins are skin-thin)
Have google around for other 15mm producers too. Plenty of them, with vastly differing levels of quality. Look at the ones that produce vehicles too - the aforementioned Zvesda and Battlefront (FoW), and also the Plastic Soldier Company, Old Glory, Ground Zero Games, QRF Models, Micropanzer, Critical Mass Games, etc. etc.

GAMEPLAY:How about scale when it comes to combat? Does it matter if you have long range weaponry? Does it bother you that in some games, ranges are short and you say to yourself they should be longer?

How about both? How does game play come into how visually looking a miniature is? If you are saying each inch is 20 meters or one hex should the miniature be 50mm, 2", 3" or a certain height?

I can tolerate it to a point. I'd say 40K would be kinda alright in that. (About the only time I'd say 40K's aright for something) The extremes that turn me off are in the likes of Hordes of the Things, a fantasy battle game that's ostensibly any scale you like, but at 28mm your archers still fire 2" and your models are 2-6 per unit base. On the flipside is something like Black Powder, where regular infantry can potentially move 36" across the table in one movement. Our gaming club houseruled that, and sharpish...

Davor wrote:
VISUALLY: So when it comes to scale, what is important to you? Do miniatures have to be to scale from each other? Is it ok if infantry are bigger than they should be, but then you get the detail of how awesome looking they are compared to tanks/mechs/buildings?

This comes down to whether it's a miniatures game or a boardgame, for me. In a game like, say, Risk, scale isn't important. The 'miniatures' are just tokens.

In a miniatures game, though... Yes, having everything in the same scale is important.

GAMEPLAY:How about scale when it comes to combat? Does it matter if you have long range weaponry? Does it bother you that in some games, ranges are short and you say to yourself they should be longer?

The actual weapon ranges are less important than whether or not they are internally consistent and the system is fun to play.

Davor wrote:
In another thread I have "How do you start a company" for gaming. Now I am trying to think of scale. I understand why some games are in 10mm. It's great for large scale items like tanks and bigger to be fielded so you have sense of large scale or grand scale. Problem for that is smaller items like infantry troops are really tiny, and basically don't look nice, and is really hard to paint so they usually end up looking bad or just meh.

Really? I've finished these...


And am starting those. I don't find them to be too bad given the size.


And the fact that I've never painted 6mm or painted/rigged ships before these.

One one hand, smaller minis are, well... small. But the details are no smaller than the details of 28mm minis. On the other hand, you're not really supposed to do highlights and shadows, a simple brown wash usually does the trick.
All in all, it's actually easier to achieve a good result on smaller minis.

Davor wrote:
So I am trying to think now, how do you combine the two?

You use a smaller scale and good minis.

Davor wrote:
VISUALLY: So when it comes to scale, what is important to you? Do miniatures have to be to scale from each other?

Yes. Smaller planes/copters are acceptable, but all land minis should have consistent scales. If your APC is supposed to be able to transport 10 marines, it should have the proper size [cough]Rhino[/cough]

Davor wrote:
GAMEPLAY:How about scale when it comes to combat? Does it matter if you have long range weaponry? Does it bother you that in some games, ranges are short and you say to yourself they should be longer?

Shorter weapons ranges are widely used now, because realistic ranges are way too impractical, except maybe for Age of Sail games, where guns didn't have a huge range and scales are usually 1/1200 or 1/2400.
An Epic sized M16 should have a range of 160cm (63in). AM1 Abrams should have a range of 12m (40ft). Good luck.

Davor wrote:
Basically what is scale for you?

Scale dictates the size of the game.
Large numbers = Small scale
Small numbers = Large scale

I can deal with small numbers and small scale, especially if it allow the game to be played on a smaller board, but large numbers and large minis are a big no-no.

I would rather ranges didnt exist outside of special circumstance. Instead have modifiers for long range and other factors. Like moving, enemy range and weather will make things harder to hit along with skill and terrain.

As for scale I prefer 1/72 or 15mm etc. Smaller ones regardless of the game type.

Mostly I'm in agreement with LItcheur, In general I want my minis and vehicles to be the same scale. I'm ok with a bit of downsizing of aircraft, but not much.

As far as detail in smaller scales it doesn't bother me to lose some detail in order to play a game that is larger in scope.

As for which scale to play, it depends on the scope of the game. I've limited my self to 2 scales that I use for a variety of games. For 2 platoons per side or less I'll use 28m For Company level and above (unless I'm playing something goofy like 40k or warpath) I'll use 10mm.

As for ranges, I find this to actually somewhat independent of scale. I prefer that ranges or lack thereof (some of my games have infinite ranges or ranges bigger than the table) be dependent on the kind of game the author is creating. Is it focused on combined arms or is it a close-in skirmish game. Also, my relativism regarding range comes from the fact that I play mostly sci-fi and fantasy games, so I'm not comparing it to real situation.

Lastly, for the OP's situation, if you want smaller scale, but lots of detail, I'd recommend 15mm. There are alot of 15mm figs that are nearly as detailed as 28mm, and many of vehicle suppliers. Further, the price difference between 15mm and 10mm is not much, and often 15mm stuff is cheaper than premium 10mm lines like DZC. I don't game in 15mm, but it's one of the fastest growing scales, and is a great compromise between 28mm and smaller scales like 10 and 6.

Great work there Litcheur, awesome work there.

VISUALLY: I find for myself , I am a very strong advocate of True scale and all miniatures in that range should be scaled with each other as closely as possible. I find it detracts from a range and setting when someone who is supposed too tower over a human is in miniature form the same size as them . It also can give a great feel to your game and range when your opposing forces really feel just that more different from each other.

As many of the commenters have already added, yes vehicles and such things should be scaled realistically to their infantry counterparts as this again helps make the range and game visually appealing and keeps the goofy look away from your product and range .


GAMEPLAY: The game should always be as much as sensibly possible too scale with the miniature scale. The only reason GW has gotten away so far with their out of scale game is due to how many people still play their game. However the market is waking up and moving much more towards sensible scaled games, Deadzone , Infinity and such games are an ideal scale for 28mm and Dropzone Commander, Gruntz , full thrust are ideal for 15mm, 10mm and 6mm games. Game producers are moving towards the smaller scale games for many good reasons, their easy to fund a playable range and expand, they can avoid the much higher costs of doing larger scale games with larger scale minis which are very pricy to do.

Their are reasons Mantic and such companies are moving away from large scale 28mm wargames, they are not easy to set up and run in cost factor, the game scale does not work as has been proven time and time again and you rarely see these scale of games out side of GW for many good reasons. Also a big thing if not the biggest of all is to consider were the market is headed. Wargamers want games that don't take 2 hours too set up and take all day to play a game. Wargamers are moving towards games that are quicker both respects of set up time and game length, I have seen this personally everywhere and we only have to look at kickstarter to see what style of games are being produced.

Doing market research is a very useful thing to consider as well, get a good idea of the game setting you want to create , the game type and scale, will it have RPG or faction progression? what groups of gamers will it appeal most too? Collectors? alternative miniatures for other games?. Getting a goal idea of what niche you want to target is a critical thing to consider in your planning, however also maintain open options encase their is a big push for your game to move more into one area of the market than another depending on what you produce.

hope this helps some more with your structuring of your company and game system, best of luck!.

- Shawn.

Thank you Underfire Wargaming. You have brought up some good points. Made me think so more.

Weapon ranges are not a huge issue, don't look at how far the weapon can fire, look at how far away it can actually hit something in the heat of battle.

Micronaughts (ww2 navy) battleships can fire 40"+ in 1:2400 scale, but are not likely to hit until much closer.

As for actual model scale, well I use 1:2400 ships with 1:700 scale aircraft so I can actually see the aircraft.

Scale becomes a lot less of an issue if you have a sensible line of sight system, and a sensible way of measuring. e.g. treat the base as a 'zone of control', the model is in there somewhere so measure to and from any part of the base. Go that way and you can have armour and infantry in differing scales as they are now models so you can see what the toekns actually are - not used for line of sight

If you game is about big robots and tanks please make the scale smaller. I love dystopian wars and the smaller scale modles is what helps sells the "larger game"/army aspect.

I also love the facty smaller sized infinity style skirmish games has been using larger 35mm+ models, as they pack in more details. Witch makes them more fun to paint and look at since you have less modles.


So basically just use the proper scale models for your game.

 Lockark wrote:
If you game is about big robots and tanks please make the scale smaller. I love dystopian wars and the smaller scale modles is what helps sells the "larger game"/army aspect.

In General this is my opinion as well, however if you're truely insane, there's no reason you can't do a battletech-like game at 25mm. You just need a very large table!
http://chicagoskirmish.blogspot.com/2014/05/mech-attack-battle-report-from-little.html


25/28mm mech combat is one of my obesssions.

Storage container buildings = awesome.

 frozenwastes wrote:
Storage container buildings = awesome.

Thanks! It was a situation where we needed to fill a table with terrain fast and cheap, so I copied my friend's buildings (the smaller white ones in the background that are CD sized) but used larger DVD size crates from Dollar General and other places.

As relates to the OP's question, the game above raises some scale issues that they were asking about. Based on the cockpits and torso size many of the largest mech are mostly in the 23-25mm range, but when we bring infantry into the game, they are often in the 28-30mm range. Yet, it doesn't look off because the mech are big enough to fool the eye as long as you don't hold a figure right next to the mech's torso area. It's also a practical matter as scaling the mechs to 28 or 30mm would require the purchase of much more expensive models and the small increase in scale would actually take up considerably more storage space.

It's a compromise I'm willing to make for affordability, easier transport/storage and taking up less space on the table.

Pick a scale and stick with it for miniatures games. Work out what you want to do, and then make the game in a sale most appropriate for the genre/type. Mixing scales is a silly idea.

I think scale for compatibility might also be a consideration (especially for a fledgling company). Being compatible with other systems might help drive some of their business to you. Of course, this works both ways. Having your own unique scale means you have less competition for the customers you do have.

With regards to humans and vehicles: I actually think the scale of the battle should be the first and most important consideration. If you want to do 28mm then it should be a skirmish game. Don't even worry about tanks and flyers that much: they shouldn't be in it! However, If you want to do a larger scale strategy war-game with tank squadrons etc... then you should make it smaller, or more abstract.

GW try to do both, but they are in a unique situation, and it still isn't a good idea. The cost, space, and even the time playing and painting are all prohibitive at 28mm scale.

I just started getting into the game "Infinity". Infinity seems to be going from strength to strength at the moment. It just got its own board on Dakka (see how many infinity sigs you can count), and there is a new starter set out (today in fact). Infinity miniatures certainly aren't cheap, they're at least as pricy as GW. However, you only need about 7 to get started (if you have 10 and a big robot then you're really kicking it). That's how a 28mm game should be. It's a good size, a good price range, and it's not a big deal if you want to try out another faction. Honestly, if infinity was the same scale of battle as 40k then I would never even have considered it.

I always figured range on the table top was an exponential abstract, for example; in a 28mm GW game the first 6" could represent 50"/15m (a reasonably believable charge range). The next 6" could be four times that; 200"/60m (a fairly reasonable side arm range). 18" and 24" would be 800"/240m and 3200"/960m respectively.

You can play tunes with different multipliers to get the range drop-off working how you want, but to me it's the best way of rationalising how you can fit individual warrior combat on the same table top as heavy artillery and main battle tanks.

Obviously in smaller scales, like the ship examples used above, the miniature becomes more of a representative token of the area the unit is in, so linear ranges become more of an option.

The exponential abstract is an interesting concept, but seems like more of an attempt to fit a system to a game that really doesn't have one. I think it's an exercise in futility to try and apply real range and ground scale to 40k. The ranges and movement distances are based almost entirely on gameplay considerations, with no real basis in any sort of reality or even trying to match the fluff.

It's simply what's required when you have a game that puts nearly a company's worth of troops on a battlefield not much bigger than a soccer pitch and incorporates silliness like long range artillery shooting at things a couple hundred feet away. I don't fault 40k for this, it's just that it's one of the most extreme examples. Further, this phenomenon is not unique to 40k, many other games base their ground scale and shooting ranges on gameplay rather than "realism". My favorite fantasy game Song of Blades, has ranges and movement that are quite compressed and not necessarily in relation to each other.

However there are some games where a real attempt is made at some measure of accuracy or the compression is done equally for movement and shooting. Take Tomorrow's War for example, where all weapons can shoot all the way across the board. There is a bonus for being within an effective tactical distance, but there is no minimum because nearly all guns can shoot the length of a soccer field. Many other historical games take a very similar approach with a defined ground scale that is the measure for both range and movement.

I'm not a scale fanatic, the trick is to make everythign look lik eit belongs together. It's not necessarily about making everything match exactly, just look like it fits together.

Also, the scale you choose will dictate the size of the game. I.E playing large army games unsing 54MM scale models means bigger boards. Playing the same game at 6mm can be played in a smaller area.

What area does your target Demo have to play a game?

In all honesty Warhammer scale games are best suited to 1:300 scale figures.

If you wish to do larger models then do a smaller scale game with 20 models tops per side.