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I am doing a speech on why wargamers are stereotypically classed as nerds and is that stigma true. any advice/ arguments for me to use?? This is being used in my english Qualification so i will need good strong arguments both for and against the wargamer 'nerds' and should they be classed as such.

Myself, I am an avid D&D, Wh40K, LoTR SBG and Dropzone Commander player

Yes we are nerds, the real question is why would you consider that a stigma in any way?

1) What stance do you wish to take? (Yes/No).

2) How are you defining "Nerd" (is it any different from "Geek").

3) Do you have any other speech ideas? I cannot think of any reason not to call wargamers "Nerds" (Unless they are actually "Geeks"), and you said you needed both sides.

Plenty of wargames used by various militaries, both for training and even mission rehearsals. Heck, FT Hood used to have a 'SimCenter' with a HUGE 3d terrain board of NTC which was used with micro-armor for training purposes. (They also had other terrain sets available).

Troll post?

It sounds like you want us to do your homework for you.
It also sounds like the subject you've picked is asking us to explain to you why we're dorks.
And you have decided that's a social stigma.

WolfLordThunderfist wrote:
Any advice / arguments for me to use??

My advice - abandon your argument. Wargamers are not stereotypically classed as nerds, any more than Brits are stereotypically cast as Dr. Who fanatics. Wargamers cover all colors, professions, races, and creeds.

Neckbeards are stereotypically classed as nerds.
Pimple-faced acne kids are stereotypically classes as nerds.
Teenage guys with long ponytails.
Kids wearing braces and coke-bottle glasses.

Wargaming has zilch to do with it. If you want something useful for your english qualification, try this:

Why social-profiling associates certain physical appearances to a "nerd-pool," and is that profiling accurate?

-People associate clean-cut, physically fit people with athletes, not nerds.
-People associate neckbeards with nerds, not athletes.
-People associate bifocal wearing, receding hairline, trenchcoat-donned middle age men with pedophiles.

Stereotypes are how the human brain categorizes and stores interactions, visual input, and memories. A human being cannot stop stereotyping, or profiling. Our brains are designed to do so to make logical sense of the world around us.

-A tall, muscular, clean-cut guy wearing a varsity football jacket says, "I play with little plastic man barbies." The reaction of people will be to chuckle because they don't believe him, and think he's being funny.
-A short, skinny, pale kid with a ponytail says, "I play football." The reaction of people will be to chuckle because they don't believe him, and think he's being funny.

Physical and racial stereotypes are your subject matter. You can argue that the way people stereotype is wrong, and that they should be more cognizant of the world around them, but wargaming has zilch to do with it.

What is the definition of a "nerd"?

 Easy E wrote:
What is the definition of a "nerd"?

Someone who plays war games.

 Easy E wrote:
What is the definition of a "nerd"?

Not Even Remotely Dorky.

Thanks to Wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nerd

"Nerd (adjective: nerdy) is a descriptive term, often used pejoratively, indicating that a person is overly intellectual, obsessive, or socially impaired. They may spend inordinate amounts of time on unpopular, obscure, or non-mainstream activities, which are generally either highly technical or relating to topics of fiction or fantasy, to the exclusion of more mainstream activities.[1][2][3] Additionally, many nerds are described as being shy, quirky, and unattractive,[4] and may have difficulty participating in, or even following, sports. Though originally derogatory, "Nerd" is a stereotypical term, but as with other pejoratives, it has been reclaimed and redefined by some as a term of pride and group identity."

Guess we follow the checklist:
Overly intellectual: Wargames tend to be strategy based so some thought is needed, so sure, it works.
Obsessive: The arguments in the forums, painting all those miniatures... yep the description works.
Socially impaired: Gaming does have a certain stigma to it which can cause some social impairment in itself... sure a half mark here.
Inordinate time on unpopular, obscure, or non-mainstream...: OUCH, that whole sentence is a wee bit too close to home. Full marks and bonus points.
Shy, quirky and unattractive...: Thank goodness no comment on smell... oops, "unattractive". Middling here, many groups can have some of these traits.

OP, good luck with getting some "factual" data on this.
A very carefully prepared questionnaire is the only way to get this topic the least bit interesting on an academic level.
The military gamers who do war games on a professional level may have a bone to pick with this.

Yep, time I will not get back.
That one line though was worth finding and trying to forget, truth can be painful.

We're all nerds now.

I am 6' 185 pounds, muscular, athletic, military veteran (special forces), I like to shoot guns and build race cars in my spare time. I have also been into MTG and tabletop war gaming for most of my life. In the past week I've had 2 girls who were absolutely shocked to learn that I play stuff like 40k. They basically said "wow, you don't look like you would be into that stuff. It's hot that you have a nerdy side". Not every war gamer, or even the majority fit the stereotypical "nerd" profile of overweight neckbeard basement dwellers with no social skills. I forget where, but I recently read a study that showed 40-50% of war gamers are active or retired military. It's not a nerd hobby any more than collecting firearms is a white, conservative male hobby. There are also some extremely attractive women that play 40k, along with a surprising number of celebrities who would never be seen as a "nerd" by people who didn't know their hobbies.

Does the term "nerd" even hold any value anymore? Considering modern media is almost entirely dominated by what was once considered nerdy, it's all pretty common place these days.

You could argue that there are still shows like Big Bang Theory that go out of their way to ridicule the 'nerd' subset, but really, that show tends to poke more fun at autistic people than anything else (for the record, it's a horrible show, which is a shame, since Jim Parsons is such a fantastic actor).

Those who lack in social skills will always be picked and poked at, but that's because of a lack of social skills, regardless of interests.

Toofast wrote:
I am 6' 185 pounds, muscular, athletic, military veteran (special forces), I like to shoot guns and build race cars in my spare time. I have also been into MTG and tabletop war gaming for most of my life. In the past week I've had 2 girls who were absolutely shocked to learn that I play stuff like 40k. They basically said "wow, you don't look like you would be into that stuff. It's hot that you have a nerdy side". Not every war gamer, or even the majority fit the stereotypical "nerd" profile of overweight neckbeard basement dwellers with no social skills. I forget where, but I recently read a study that showed 40-50% of war gamers are active or retired military. It's not a nerd hobby any more than collecting firearms is a white, conservative male hobby. There are also some extremely attractive women that play 40k, along with a surprising number of celebrities who would never be seen as a "nerd" by people who didn't know their hobbies.

Thing is, for every one of you, there is 1000's of us who are your opposites. :p

It comes down to stereo types, and it's mostly true. Yes there is the exceptions. We may not be Revenge of the Nerds, type anymore but we are still nerds and geeks.

Toofast wrote:
I am 6' 185 pounds, muscular, athletic, military veteran (special forces), I like to shoot guns and build race cars in my spare time. I have also been into MTG and tabletop war gaming for most of my life. In the past week I've had 2 girls who were absolutely shocked to learn that I play stuff like 40k. They basically said "wow, you don't look like you would be into that stuff. It's hot that you have a nerdy side". Not every war gamer, or even the majority fit the stereotypical "nerd" profile of overweight neckbeard basement dwellers with no social skills. I forget where, but I recently read a study that showed 40-50% of war gamers are active or retired military. It's not a nerd hobby any more than collecting firearms is a white, conservative male hobby. There are also some extremely attractive women that play 40k, along with a surprising number of celebrities who would never be seen as a "nerd" by people who didn't know their hobbies.

I actually got into 40k because of one of my buddies who was in the army. He got into 40k during his deployment into Iraq, and most of his buddies overseas played to pass the time. A lot of my club doesn't fit the stereotypical nerd archetype. Plus, being nerdy is in nowadays.

I think it's all in how you handle yourself. If you look put together (not even fit, but groomed and look like you've showered in the last day or so) and aren't socially inept, no one really cares that you're into playing plastic dudesmen. Every woman I've ever been with has been AT WORST indifferent, and at best, interested haha. If you're a "dweller," it's not the wargaming that's hurting people's perception of you.

40-50% of wargamers active or retired military? I'd be incredibly dubious about numbers like that.

 WolfLordThunderfist wrote:
I am doing a speech on why wargamers are stereotypically classed as nerds...

Are they?

... and is that stigma true.

Why is being classed as a nerd a stigma?

any advice/ arguments for me to use??

I would recommend starting with determining whether or not your argument actually has any basis.

I'm so nerdy I loled at Crazy Carnifex's sig.

Toofast wrote:
They basically said "wow, you don't look like you would be into that stuff. It's hot that you have a nerdy side".

What Davor said. I'll bet she didn't think it was as hot as being 6', muscular, and athletic.



I think 'nerd' has at least begun to be appropriated by the nerdy, and to some extent trendsetters*. Getting back to Davor's post again, we might've moved on since Revenge of the Nerds, but I think the speech at the end is still a good 'un.

*Though I might be just a wee bit more miffed by that than by the IMO dying stigmata of 'nerd'. If you want to be geek chic, go deeper than a superficial look, get a few of the hobbies and weird looks too.

I'm in my mid thirties, lean, well built, run half marathons for fun and am married to a beautiful woman, have an amazing job which earns me well north of $100k per year in US terms and have a life which I love, and which toy soldiers play an important part of.

Strangely most of my gaming club are in a similar position, while the 'cool' kids at school who tormented us mercilessly about being nerds are, judging by facebook at least, stuck in dead end jobs with no escape in site.

If this is what being a nerd means, then hey I'm down with that!

I would not call my self a nerd either. Did 10 years in the US army Airborne Infantry. Work at a prison as a guard, not the job I would consider a nerd doing. I will admit that I do enjoy a nerd hobby but would never consider myself as a typical nerd.

Behold the sad truth of nerd-denial.

All gamers are nerds?

I'm pretty sure this guy could kick most critics across the room...

 insaniak wrote:

... and is that stigma true.

Why is being classed as a nerd a stigma?

For those who are stuck or were raised in the 80's. Anyone see the movies Revenge of the Nerds. That is what a lot of people think of, when they think "nerd" in the 80's.

Now Nerds are Big Bang Theory. Now here is a difference. They are nerds, because they are smart. If you are like them but don't have the "smarts" you are a geek then. Sadly in Nerdom there was classifications back then, and even Nerds have their own social cliq you have to adapt to, in order to be accepted back then. Now I believe it has changed somewhat, like how all people's opinions change.

Sadly I wasn't good looking enough to hang with the Jocks, to social awkward to hang with the cool kids, not smart enough to be with the Nerds, so what is left? Geek. :(

Before only Nerds played with computers. Now playing with a computer or console is socially acceptable now. In the 80's it wasn't. Same thing is going on now with "Wargaming", but really playing with toy soldiers. Before it was Dungeons and Dragons. Only Nerds and Geeks played with them. In time, people saw how computers helped in every day life. People saw how you can have fun on consoles, because that was like going to the Arcade and not spending quarters all the time. (anyone here remember the Arcades? LOL Anyone not know what an Arcade is?) So people saw how playing games on consoles was having fun, and then started to realize that the gaming experience can be better on the computers. So now computer/console gaming is socially acceptable now.

So now the "wargaming" is in the "80's" where computer/console gaming was back then.

Will it catch on? No I don't think so. Why? Because if GW is suppose to be the biggest market share and the games they are making IS NOT FUN for most people Wargaming will never take off.

=====================================================


As a side note, this is why I think GW is happy where only having a select 2000-5000 customers world wide. They "niche market" is to Geeks and Nerds who they know will keep buying their product. They don't even try to expand on the untapped market like say Bethesda has done with The Elder Scrolls. Before that game was just for Geeks and Nerds who played on PC's first then on Consoles. Bethesda (or was it Zenimax the owners of Bethesda?) wanted to make more money. So they changed how their game was in Oblivion and then changed it again in Skyrim to get more of a market share and new customers. It was successful. Yes there were complaints but when you are selling over 10 million, 20 million units, you are doing something correct.

GW is not even attempting this. They are quite content selling their products to Geek and Nerds. They don't even do research on what people want because they know their 5000 or so customers will always be there. Yes I said 5000. Yes I know people are leaving in droves, the sales are not there. But that was when GW had 25 000 customers (give or take) but no matter how many leave, GW is still making a profit and is perfectly content where they are. Why? Because we are Geeks and Nerds and love our "plastic crack". GW doesn't think any other way. Their mind set is stuck in the 80's it seems and they think the Geeks and Nerds of the 80's are still the same in the 00's.

Have you not seen the many, many, many console and PC games released under the Warhammer / Warhammer 40K license? GW has been trying to reach a wider market for quite some time.

If the OP wants to continue with his original line of thinking, a British documentary series, Myth Hunters, flat out said that Himmler would have been a war-gaming nerd. I believe it was in episode 7, Himmler and the Holy Grail. It was released in 2012.

How's that for a negative portrayal?

BairdEC wrote:
If the OP wants to continue with his original line of thinking, a British documentary series, Myth Hunters, flat out said that Himmler would have been a war-gaming nerd. I believe it was in episode 7, Himmler and the Holy Grail. It was released in 2012.

How's that for a negative portrayal?

Not only that, but it doesn't even make sense...it's not as if wargames weren't contemporaneous with the Nazis.

That said, I do find it creepy when people want to paint their IG to look like the SS, or whatever...but it's not as if I'd use them to judge the whole community.

 Azazelx wrote:
40-50% of wargamers active or retired military? I'd be incredibly dubious about numbers like that.

Would have to go back to read the article - but it was an article largely about GW, and largely about the US market...where 40-50% is active/prior service military. Honestly, sounds about right. Probably 95% of those who I have played with were (granted, a good bit of that time was while I was active myself). Lots of people get into gaming while overseas - and it is encouraged for cadet officers and still used in PME like the War College (not 40K type wargames - but those with a greater level of tactical or strategic depth).



To the core question...

Are wargamers stereotyped as Nerds? Yes. Are a lot of wargamers Nerds? Yes - most stereotypes have some basis in reality. Are all wargamers Nerds? No. As a subject for an academic work - probably not much meat in it. Though you could make a case for the stereotype angle and work it out on the origins of gaming as well as case studies which break the mold.

There seems to be a distinct position that stereotypes are a bad thing. There is a strong argument that stereotypes are a good thing (the human race would not have survived long as we had were it not for stereotyping things with big teeth as dangerous for example). That can be the meat of a solid paper/speech/debate topic (falling on either side of the coin I guess...).

As a side note, this is why I think GW is happy where only having a select 2000-5000 customers world wide.

Off by a factor of...many. Haven't calculated it recently - but it was in the 100,000 active customer range a few years back. Now they are likely down in the 90,000 active customer range.

Tabletop wargaming has a bad reputation because you shove plastic miniatures around. And because of...a certain group of people that would stand out in any crowd.

I am a wargamer but I would never, ever tell anyone I work with unless those people are very close to me. It would weaken my position if the rumor of me playing with little plastic soldiers was to go around.

 Sean_OBrien wrote:
Are wargamers stereotyped as Nerds? Yes.

By whom?

From my experience, most people don't know enough about wargaming or those who engage in it to stereotype gamers as anything. The 'gamers are nerds' tag, along with the 'wargaming is a bit weird' tag tend to be applied far more by gamers than by anyone else.




And outside of high school, who is going around stereotyping people based on their hobbies in the first place?

 Sigvatr wrote:
Tabletop wargaming has a bad reputation because you shove plastic miniatures around. And because of...a certain group of people that would stand out in any crowd.

I am a wargamer but I would never, ever tell anyone I work with unless those people are very close to me. It would weaken my position if the rumor of me playing with little plastic soldiers was to go around.

I doubt that very seriously.

I make no effort to hide the fact that I play tabletop games and paint models from the people I work with. Hell, I've brought models in to work to show people on more than one occasion. How does a hobby "weaken" your position at work? I don't know what you do for a living, but I'm a construction worker and I've run multimillion dollar jobs and had more than two dozen men working for me and never once felt the need to hide anything "nerdy" that I enjoy.

The fact that I paint toy soldiers and have Lord of the Rings and Star Wars tattoos doesn't make me less capable to do my job.

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
Tabletop wargaming has a bad reputation because you shove plastic miniatures around. And because of...a certain group of people that would stand out in any crowd.

I am a wargamer but I would never, ever tell anyone I work with unless those people are very close to me. It would weaken my position if the rumor of me playing with little plastic soldiers was to go around.

I doubt that very seriously. .

Likewise. I've never hidden my gaming from anyone. A few people haven't understood what it was about. A few haven't understood why it would be a fun thing to do. By and large, though, people appreciate the artistic side of it if nothing else.

I've encountered far more negative stigma about gaming from insecure gamers than from everyone else.