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I've recently been looking into starting (come from 40k) and it looks really cool. I just don't know where to start and don't want to get any models I don't end up using. I really like the look of Gatormen, but don't know if since they are only a small part of the minions faction they lack diversity. I also can't really discern a difference between many of the Warmachine factions because most of them just have different colored war jacks and its hard to get a feel for them by the pictures. What is a recommended starting place? Are Gatormen a legit army or would they have to mix with other Minions? Are there any armies a beginner should avoid? Thanks for the help and guidance on my start.

Gators would be army to avoid as a beginner...

The problem with Gators is that as a minion army, there are only a very small amount of models and no starter box...

As far as buying things you won't use, each army only has a TINY amount of things that are rarely used.

As far as the differences between armies, while I am sure someone will go more indepth here is a good idea...

Khador - Big, slow and tough... tends not to use many jacks
Menoth - Above Average... Everything because of great buffs, Great Denial... Slightly below average without buffs
Cygnar - focuses on shooting, jacks are considered below average which is most of their lists have become just Stormwall which is really OP
Cryx - High damage, High speed, Low health basically glass cannons. Can use lots of jacks, but their infantry are really good so not often seen
Scyrah - probably the least played compared to the other 4. Jacks are naturally above average, but tend to be very slightly more expensive or more rules heavy.

Gators being minions can be used by other Hordes armies

In particular Skorne is known for heavily "employing" Gators into their army ranks. Especially since they have really strong support for minions.

Gators are a legit force, but you are correct in that they lack variety. But not as bad as pigs.

Minions and Mercenaries, by PPs own words, are NOT factions. They're half-factions basically. They don't get the same releases or support as full factions do. But they're perfectly viable.


I would not recommend starting with Mercs or Minions as your first faction. But if you like Gatormen, I would suggest Skorne. Skorne has some great support for taking Minions in their normal lists. They even have a Theme force dedicated to running Minions alongside Skorne troops(one of the only theme forces which does this)

After that, you can easily use some of the same stuff to start Gators by themselves.


To start Skorne, you'll want to get the Battle Box(this is true for every faction)

This contains a fully legal 11 point army which you can use to get some beginner games in and learn the rules.

After that, you'll want to purchase a unit of PGBH, an Agonizer, and a Bronzeback.

At this point, you can start adding real infantry. Gators are minions, but Skorne run them better than pure Gator lists actually. A unit of Posse and a Paingiver Taskmaster is what you need to make them shine.

If you still want to run Gators, you might check out Rasheth as your next warlock. Specifically his theme force(which can be viewed in Warroom)


You'll want to also get the Warroom app. While each model comes with its own card, and all rules needed to play it, Warroom is an invaluable replacement. The app is free and each factions complete deck of digital card is roughly $7-8 each. you also get any cards which are released in the future for that faction too.

Warroom is both a card reference app, as well as a list building and damage tracker app. You can build lists, including theme lists, store them, and even use the app to track damage during a battle.

Its also the only place you can get ALL the rules for every model in one place. Otherwise you'll have to buy several hundred dollars worth of individual books and lug them around. You'll also need to have individual plastic card sleeves to track damage.



As for telling the difference between Warmachine factions, they have very distinct aesthetics.

Khador jacks are big and heavy. They tend to only ever run 1 at a time. Khador is an infantry faction.

Menoth is a buff/synergy faction We also have a lot of denial(I play menoth and Skorne). Armor is above average. Speed is below average. Damage output is well above average. Jacks are basically durable, slow, and hit like the fist of our angry god.

Cygnar is the swiss army knife faction. They do a little bit of everything with a slight focus on shooting. Jacks are average durability and speed, above average attack abilities.

Cryx is an infantry faction. Jacks are fast. Lights are basically just arc nodes with legs. Heavies are fragile and hit hard, but are rarely seen because BANES!

Retribution is another combined arms faction like Cygnar. Jacks are above average armor, but have very low damage(health). They have good damage output.


On to Hordes.

Circle: Glass cannon is what circle is. Wolf beasts are fast and hit hard, but are very squishy. Infantry are hard to hit, fast, hit hard, but again are relatively squishy. Lots of movement and teleportation shenanigans.

Trolls: Trolls are brick walls, that hit just as hard. Beasts are both durable, can be fast, and hit very very hard. They're just expensive. Infantry are durable. Some are hard hitting too.

Legion: Fast, only moderately durable, and beasts hit pretty hard. Special things is their beasts basically all ignoring rough terrain and most line of sight blocking abilities. Infantry are largely support orientated.

Skorne: Beasts can be made fast, durable, and kill whatever they touch. Also have good all around infantry.

 Waaagh 18 wrote:
I've recently been looking into starting (come from 40k) and it looks really cool. I just don't know where to start and don't want to get any models I don't end up using. I really like the look of Gatormen, but don't know if since they are only a small part of the minions faction they lack diversity.t.

first up, welcome to the iron kingdoms. don't forget the complimentary goggles, and wrastler plushie

Regarding gatormen - first up, they're cool. But probably not the best place to start. Mercenaries and Minions are better described as a collection of sub factions, rather than fully fledged factions. Gators, Piggies, Dwarves, Pirates, Llaelese resistance, Cephalyx and Mafia crimelords are all in this category, im afraid. minions/mercs will get support as a whole, but not every contract/pact gets support with every release. Consequently, as sub-factions, whilst cool, and whilst they give PP the creative space to design a lot of cool little "minor players", and certainly add colour to the world, no contract/pact will ever have the same support as any of the "main" warmachine, or hordes factions. THis will translate into tabletop options. Whilst main factions can boast dozens of casters/jacks/units/solos, mercs and minions will always be less. Dont get me wrong - you can still build armies with them, and you can still win, and have fun, but you wont have the same breadth of options and variety in a contract/pact as you will have in a main faction.

Right, now where to start, and not wanting to buy models you wont use. to the former, i'd recommend (a) rulebook (Warmachine: Prime, or Hordes: Primal, depending on what direction you want to take), and which will have the rules and fluff that should help you decide where to go, and (b) the starter pack for your faction. the Forces of (faction) is always a good shout for more in depth fluff, and a more complete roster (though i'd recommend War Room on your tablet for this as well) of your faction, but isnt strictly necessary. Regarding not using models, thankfully in this game, very few things are unplayable. everything can be built into an effective game winning strategy. Now, best way to do it is to start small (battlebox) and build up slowly - joining a journeyman league is a great way to start. Dont worry about not using certain models right away etc., as was said, everything can be built into a game winning strategy.

 Waaagh 18 wrote:
I I also can't really discern a difference between many of the Warmachine factions because most of them just have different colored war jacks and its hard to get a feel for them by the pictures.

If i said to you that i wanted to play 40k, but all those Space Marines looked the same, and couldnt tell them apart, i'm sure you'd laugh at me. But think about it. Aside from wearing dresses or pelts, they're pretty much all the same anyway - its all power armour. Now, saying they're "just different coloured warjacks" is equally silly. how about you go beyond just the aesthetics, and for what its worth, every factions jack "look" is quite distinct. Khador's are rough and functional, cygnars are extremely finely crafted (5 digit hands etc), Menoth jacks look like walking altars with all the prayers inlaid into the armour slabs, and cryxian jacks have the "feral animal", or "feral evil chicken" look. then there is the retribution "Protoss" look, and the COnvergence lovecraftian robot theme. And dont think the game stops with the warjacks either. each factions infantry is quite distinctive as well, if you look as the crusading knight theme of menoth, to the "pre-modern" look of cygnar to the retributions "sci fi elves" look that is uniquely advanced and stylish in the settting.

In any case, a picture is just a picture. You get a feel from them by reading their fluff.

trust me, the factions are quite aesthetically different, and it would take a lot longer to go into the differences.properly.

 Waaagh 18 wrote:
What is a recommended starting place? Are Gatormen a legit army or would they have to mix with other Minions? Are there any armies a beginner should avoid? Thanks for the help and guidance on my start.

Right, now where to start, and not wanting to buy models you wont use. to the former, i'd recommend (a) rulebook (Warmachine: Prime, or Hordes: Primal, depending on what direction you want to take), and which will have the rules and fluff that should help you decide where to go, and (b) the starter pack for your faction. the Forces of (faction) is always a good shout for more in depth fluff, and a more complete roster (though i'd recommend War Room on your tablet for this as well) of your faction, but isnt strictly necessary.

regarding the query of beginner armies, there is no such thing in this game. Warmachine is gaming on Hard mode. Its playing starcraft against Koreans. it has a steep learning curve, and frankly, youre doing it wrong if you win any of your first dozen games. you will lose at first. you will probably lose a lot, regardless of factions. And thats OK. Its kind of like the badge of honour of this game - we've all been there. your first few games will be losses until the dots start to connect, and then slowly you'll start to "get it". And then all of a sudden, the pieces will all fall into place and you will win your first game. thing is, you wont win because you took a netlist. you will win because you will have earned it.

 Grey Templar wrote:

Retribution is another combined arms faction like Cygnar. Jacks are above average armor, but have very low damage(health). They have good damage output.

Its a total misconception that Scyrah jacks have low hp
In Light Jacks, the toughest Light Jack is from Menoth
Scyrah Shield Jacks have 26~28 hp and the shields can be regenerated
Menoth jacks have 26 hp
Cygnar have 24~26 hp

In Heavy Jacks
Scyrah Jacks have 32 hp
Menoth sits at 32~34
Cygnar at 30
Khador obviously at 34~36

edit forgot Cryx
Lights are like 18~20
Heavy are like 28

I wouldn't claim shields as regenable on anything besides the Pheonix since its 1 focus for only D3 shields to regen.

I also don't count shields as being full on damage boxes.

Covergence is a jack heavy faction of cultist living robots.

So is it possible to play with proxies for the first game or is it impossible to get stats without the models...

The stat cards can all be seen on the Warroom app.

 Waaagh 18 wrote:
So is it possible to play with proxies for the first game or is it impossible to get stats without the models...

Heh. Good news! Privateer press have the quick start rules available as a freely downloadable pdf.

http://privateerpress.com/files/WarmachineMKII%20Quick%20Start%20Rules%20Front.pdf
http://privateerpress.com/files/Hordes%20MkII%20DemoRules-WEB.pdf

You have the stats here for all the various starter packs that are purchaseable as well as the rules for the battlebox games - they're a 'diet' version of the full game, and essentially just focus on the core battlegroup features (focus/fury, spells, feats, some power attacks, movement and attacks) with other aspects of the full game removed (units, all power attacks etc)

So, theoretically, you could download/print this off and use some appropriate stand ins to see if it's a game you fancy. Personally, if someone wanted to have a go, and had a dreadnought or two as 'warjacks' and a space marine as a proxy caster, I'd be ok with playing against it for a game or two, to get the rules done, or to see if it's something you like. That said, WMH is a very precise game, and things like base sizes (different between 40k and WMH) are different, and could have an effect. So as a first run - sure, go for it, (even though there will be sone minor issues) and there wont be many to refuse you, or hold it against you for a first game, but in the long run, it's probably better to invest in the proper starter.

Hope that helps!

 Grey Templar wrote:
I wouldn't claim shields as regenable on anything besides the Pheonix since its 1 focus for only D3 shields to regen.

I also don't count shields as being full on damage boxes.

This first bit I can definitely agree on (except you forgot Imperatus and the Aspis, who both regen the shields automatically), the only time you use the D3 regen ability is if you manage to kill your target with focus to spare, the second bit doesn't really make sense though. Shields are damage boxes, same as anything else - a Ret jack with DEF 12 ARM 18 with 10 on the shield and 22 in the body is requires exactly the same amount of effort to kill as a DEF12 ARM18 jack with 32 boxes from any other faction. The main advantage of the shield is that it make you more resistant to system loss.

But yeah either way simply looking at the number of boxes a jack has does not tell you how hard it is to kill - Ret jacks all have fairly low ARM, particularly compared to Khador jacks, and even a single point of ARM can make a huge difference to how hard something is to kill.

I really like the look of Khador jacks. The slab like appearance just looks so cool. I am also a fan of their Man O war suits. Is it possible to have an army of them without very many winter guard, or can you only have a small amount of jacks and suits?

Man'o'wars are a trap. Just like the jacks.

Only caster who can sort of make them work is eIrusk. And even then its basically choosing to polish a turd when you could polish solid gold with inset diamonds.

So the jacks and man o war units aren't viable?

Templar is overly negative
Man-o-War are not bad actually

A few lists that are becoming more common is Bastion spam, Troll Warder spam, Xerxis Fist...

Those are all the heavy infantry for their respective armies, and let me tell you

Man-o-War have better stats than most of those guys~!

Winterguard death star was really popular like 1~2 years ago, because of how few armies had access to strong aoe's. So the high def of winterguard made them almost unkillable since they were unhittable... Well new releases brought a ton of new stuff to counter that.

So let me tell you something, becareful of people following the meta! The metabreakers are always right around the corner!

Also, this game is REALLY well balanced. What people constantly whine about being garbage, pro players often take to tourneys just to prove people wrong.

So I can be Man O War, Iron Pikeman (I think that what they're called), and Jack heavy and still win...

 Waaagh 18 wrote:
So I can be Man O War, Iron Pikeman (I think that what they're called), and Jack heavy and still win...

Yes, if you build your list to make it work.

Obviously this is becoming advance strategies but...

You need to carefully read and understand what your caster can do. This involves seeing his spells and abilities.
Then you need to carefully see what solo's and mercs and such that you can bring and know what they can do, and how they can combo things.
Next you need to understand what you want to bring
and you need to understand what you will likely face

Finally you need to take it all together, and make a coherent list

So while no, you cannot easily win if you randomly spam without thinking... Important Note - "Easily win", because technically it is possible to win with anything, the key is to maximize your chances...

but yes
You can bring manowar, iron pikeman, and couple of jacks and do really well

Regarding Man-O'-Wars:

Somebody once told me this regarding Warmachine, nothing is better than anything else, but some things are more niche than others. What that means is basically that EVERYTHING can be good, but some things are good in more situations than others. For example, in Cygnar the defender is almost always a good choice. Its got a decent long range gun, meaning that it can put some hurt on heavy targets, and it doesn't require a lot of focus to be effective, so you can take it without worrying about it being a drain on your warcaster (or potentially even jack marshal it). The cyclone is typically less effective. It needs a bit more focus to be useful, and its guns have a much lower damage output. However, it has a special ability which allows it to place two 3" AoEs that autohit any enemies that enter it on their turn, making it ideal for zone control and against high-def, low arm targets. Likewise, in Cryx Mechanithralls are typically seen as a third rate unit, with either Bane Thralls or Sytaxis Raiders being generally preferred over either of them. However, the warcaster Lich Lord Terminus has a ton of synergy with Mechanithralls, since he has abilities which give nearby friendly undead "Tough" (Sytaxis are living, and Bane Thralls have access to tough already) as well as another ability which allows nearby undead to take any hits that would come Terminus's way.

Man-o-Wars are a bit similar. They are tough and hard-hitting, but unfortunately exist in a faction where there are plenty of other tough and hard hitting things. Thus, they need something that synergizes well with their unique elements of their kit to either play up their strengths or negate their weaknesses. I'm not a Khador player, but I have seen both Demo. Corps. and Shock Troppers used as a 'second wave' unit that serves to clean up after Iron Fangs or Winter Guard to some success with one of the Butchers and I think Irusk2, but these are fairly niche scenarios. More often than not something else is a better fit for what you have (either being less synergy reliant, or having better synergy with the rest of your army), but when your list needs Man-O-Wars, they are amazing.


As a general note regarding running 'Jack heavy:

A trap that many new players fall into is trying to run too many warjacks. They are big and cool looking. But each warjack that you want to run realistically has two costs, a point cost and a focus cost. The point cost is obvious, but the focus cost is less so. Each turn in order to be at its most efficient a warjack requires a certain amount of focus. The exact amount varies depending on both the warjack and the current state of the board (sometimes you just want 1 focus to run, sometimes you want to load up on the full 3 to charge then buy/boost attacks), but in general each warjack wants a specific amount of focus each turn. You can choose not to feed them the focus they want, but in that case they aren't really pulling their own weight and you would have been better off using your list points to bring an infantry unit that didn't drain focus. Additionally, your warjacks aren't the only thing that consume focus. Typically your warcaster wants to be casting spells, paying upkeeps, and spending focus on additional attacks or boosts. They may also want to camp some of that focus to make your warcaster tougher and more resilient to assassination. So with so many things you want your focus to be doing, when you consider that your average warcaster has 6 focus to play around with, you start to see that you don't really have that much to spread around.

Now, there are warcasters and factions that tend to run more jacks better than others, they typically have some way of cheating the focus limit. The Convergence of Cyriss has an innate ability to 'recycle' focus, drastically increasing the amount that your warcaster can share around. The Protectorate has a character 'jack that doesn't need focus, as well as extremely powerful warjack support spells and units that allows the faction to get more out of their jacks without spending focus (mainly through the Choir and Vassals). Specific warcasters that run a lot of Jacks well tend to have battlegroup wide upkeep spells letting them buff all their jacks at once (such as the synergy spell, notably on Vyros2). Focus is still a limiting factor, but there are ways to cheat the system and make it go farther.

Now, regarding why Khador typically runs very few warjacks (1-2 instead of 2-3) is a combination of factors. The first is that their warcasters typically want to be allocating very little focus to their warjacks. They tend to be "greedy", either wanting to use all of their focus to cast spells or to buy attacks (notably on the Butchers). Its also worth noting that Khador, much more than any other faction, has a tendency to run their warcasters up front (due to their spell ranges, stats, and abilities) and thus most warcasters like or need to camp a fair amount of focus. Additionally, most warjacks in the faction are also greedy and want a lot of focus themselves. That, and the fact that Khador has some of the strongest infantry in the game, really pushes them as a faction to only use one or two warjacks (outside of specific niche builds, as there are always exceptions to the rules).

If I was going to make a list with multiple jacks, Man'o'war, and IFP, I'd go something like the following.

eIrusk
-Spriggan
-War Dog

Shocktroopers
Black Dragon Ironfang Pikeman with UA
min Winterguard Riflecorps
Ironfang Kovnik
Ironfang Kovnik

Kovnik Andrei Malakov(junior warcaster)
-Behemoth

That gets you 2 of the best Khador jacks, both with all the focus they want, the Black Dragon IFP, and Shocktroopers. Plus the stuff to make them work.

 Talamare wrote:

Cygnar - focuses on shooting, jacks are considered below average which is most of their lists have become just Stormwall which is really OP

Below average, yet OP?

And Cygnar has some great jacks. But the Stormwall is points and focus efficient. But it isn't the be-all, end-all of Warjacks.

Talamare wrote:

Khador - Big, slow and tough... tends not to use many jacks

to be fair, khador arent slow. they're jacks speed is akin to similar heavies in other factions such as cygnar, protectorate, rhulic jacks etc. back this up with a huge amount of speed buffs inherent in the faction, and rather than "khador are slow", its more a case of "khador jacks have a low speed stat, but that isnt the full story". their infantry is as fast as anyone elses as well, and so is their cavalry.

Waaagh 18 wrote:I really like the look of Khador jacks. The slab like appearance just looks so cool. I am also a fan of their Man O war suits. Is it possible to have an army of them without very many winter guard, or can you only have a small amount of jacks and suits?

First things first. "I want to have an army of only X" doesnt really work in this game. Unlike games like 40k, spam is not rewarded. Can you have an army of just jacks and men o war and win? Well, its a skew build. Can it win? Maybe, some of the time. But it would have severe match up issues and thats true of all skew builds. Now thats not the same as saying "Do men o war and jacks have a role to play in an army". In which case, the answer is yes.

Think of building a warmachine army, and you list in the context of "what questions can it ask of my opponents", and "what answers can it provide me to questions my opponents ask". Men O War are a great tarpit, and fantastic at jamming scenario zones, but they're so. their main issue. speed. they need help to get there. Its not that they're "bad", they're just "specialized". there are builds that make them work. Butcher has a theme force that gives a seed boost to them on their first turn, and epic Irusk makes great use out of them thanks to his tactical supremacy spell, and his martial discipline ability. A max sized squad of Men o War is invaluable to the epic Irusk brick builds. As a whole force, probably not. But definately as part of a greater whole. And thats what you have to look at in terms of all units. Can they fit into the list as part of a greater whole. Spam doesnt really work here.

Regarding Winter Guard - they're a very useful unit, but by no means are they auto-includes.

Regarding jacks - most khador casters like 1 jack, maybe two at a maximum. Some, like Vlad, Karchev, Butcher1 are more comfortable with greater numbers of jacks. THe fact we now have our junion warcaster Malakov gives us a great way to bring more heavy metal to the table as well. there is no reason why you have to feel constrained to the traditional "only one jack" approach - just be smart, and realistic about things.

Waaagh 18 wrote:So the jacks and man o war units aren't viable?

Nope, you've got it wrong. Jacks are viable. Men o War are viable. "All jacks", or "all Men o War" will have issues. Khador run few jacks as a general rule (and this is backed up by the fluff by the way), but are fully capable of running those few jacks rather well. men o war are a specialised unit. With the right support, they're great, but they wont pull their weight in every list.

Waaagh 18 wrote:So I can be Man O War, Iron Pikeman (I think that what they're called), and Jack heavy and still win...

Kinda. If you took eIrusk, and Malakov, you could conceivably run 2 to 3 jacks, along with Men o War and the Pikeys. Khador isnt a 'jack heavy' faction, but you're not crippling yourself running 2 or 3 jacks, if you build your list right.* But the Pikeys themselves are a great unit, very versatile, and there are very few casters they wont work well with.

*As mentioned, Jack heavy isnt really fluffy for Khador in the first place, despite what some people say. If you want Jack heavy as a general rule, the Convergence and Protectorate factions are probably better options for you.

If you want tough Khador infantry and still keep your speed up get the pikemen. You can double up on them by making one unit black dragons.

Two units and support is a durable and fast core to any list. Then add a jack and perhaps a unit of man o war.

But IMO a lot of new players like the look of man o wars. And the fluff for them sounds cool. But the rules they think they are getting are the ones the IFP actually do have.

You can make 2 units Black Dragons. The Black Dragon UA is FA2 for some reason.

true, but most khador players I know like to take one unit of IFP and one of BDIFP. They have slightly different abilities with their respective UAs and it gives them some flexibility.

But both routes are fine. I just find most newbies want to play man-o-wars because they look tough and cool and hard when what they are really looking for rules-wise are IFP.

Well thats odd, because I have yet to see a player running double IFP that was not running double Black Dragons. Only ever see the regular UA if running one unit.

Course its all Butcher 3 and eIrusk for casters I see running IFP.

I listened to everyone and got a starter box. Now I realize cinerators, Repenter and crusader are pretty bad so I basically spent $40 on kreoss1 and a vanquisher. I would suggest using the PP forums to see what casters are the best for your chosen faction and then picking a couple jacks and a unit that pair well with that caster. Everyone here will just tell you to get a battle box but if you do that you're guaranteed to end up with useless models.

Repenter and Crusader are actually not all that bad. They're a little niche, but there are plenty of lists and casters which make them very good.

Cinerators are a genuinely bad unit, but they're easy to convert into Bastions which are an amazing unit.

Repenters under Battle are Rat7 with a pow14 spray. That is VERY scary for basic Def13 infantry. Run it with pSeverius and it can be Rat8 pow15.

Crusaders become a point cheaper in a lot of tier lists, and even at base cost they're very cheap. You can often run crusaders and have a 2-1 advantage in terms of heavies. That means you can basically use them as bait. Run one of them into the middle and basically say to your opponent: Kill this guy with your heavy, and it dies to my other Crusader. OR leave it alone, and get charged by it on my next turn. Either way, you lose! In tiers where they become 5 points its just disgustingly good.

iKreoss also makes Crusaders good because Warpath gives them another 3" of threat.

Repenter and Crusader are really good

Crusader is literally 6 points for basically the 2nd strongest pow weapon in Menoth
Crusaders are insane beatsticks!

Repenter fits so well in so many lists too

Cinerator is the at worst the only "wasted" unit, and they aren't even that bad

And if you honestly do not want the crusader, when you buy your first heavy kit with the same body, you can use the extra bits to make either a Vanquisher or Templar out of it. Magnetizing it is even better. You get 3 jacks in one.