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Hi,

Recently, I began looking into some wargaming systems: GW's PP, Corvus Belli, Wyrd... And decided to take the plunge!

Now, I'm trying to decide on wich games to invest. The reason is I'll be the only one to buy, paint, teach and basically finance it for my group. So I was researching like a madmen about all the games and got to this conclusions:

Warmahordes: The fluff grew on me, the models are nice. And the rules seem to work fine. Also, I can play smaller games for a while.

Infinity: I don't like metal models, but they make some superb ones. Rules seem simple enough, and small size games and the ARO system give it a plus

Wyrd: Rules are ok, don't really like the models( not a horror fan), low model count is nice. Also, plastic.

40K or Warhammer Fantasy: Read some of the rules. Really hard to simply teach someone a game when every unit may have extra itens added that do extra magical stuff that's in other book

Lord of the rings: Dying...

So, although I find a massive horde of miniatures battling it out awesome, most probably I won't have the income to pay for it. Knowing that, I decided to settle at the "normal" size for each game.

How many points of each system seem to be the average? the best combination of money spent and options?

Also, can anyone talk about historical gaming? Hail Caesar, Bolt action and flames of war can quench my thirst for massive war at decent prices?

For massed battle fantasy games I recommend Kings of War - free rules and army lists, great fun. Mantic also makes fairly decent but incredibly cheap fantasy models so you can get giant armies without hurting your wallet. edit: Additionally the army lists don't require you to use Mantic models - so for instance if you want to do historicals it's really easy to use the same models in Kings of War. I have a Greek army for Hail Caesar and I also use it for Kings of War (and add in a Medusa and a Cyclops and the Talos for mythological fantasy fun!). I also have an Early Imperial Roman army from Warlord (all plastic) that also does double duty between Hail Caesar and Kings of War, since both systems use regiment/element basing (no individual casualty removal, just a large base x millimeters wide by x millimeters deep full of figures)

Warmahordes is great for skirmish gaming, you can grab a couple of the one-player battle boxes for good prices. Expanding past those can get pricey for the metal models (only a small percentage are plastic)

Bolt Action is also another winner, the D-Day Firefight starter set has the beginnings of a US and German force plus order dice and the full rulebook. You can get the 1000 point army boxes for a good price and have a full army.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Do you have a budget in mind? How many different army types you'd like to have represented for you and your group? A preferred style (fantasy, historical, sci fi, etc?)

Infinity you will need a lot of scenery. The more the better. I don't like metal models either, but I love theirs. Very in depth but once you get it down it flows like honey.

Warmachine is great because it has that over the top flair but without the hastle of arguing about balance issue. Just show up with the appropriate points and have fun. Quick and easy to learn.
Edit:
Frankly, this is a great problem to have. There have never been so many awesome games to choose from. If I had more time and money I'd be trying all of them.

Well normally I'd pitch Malifaux, but if that's not your thing I understand.

What I like about WarmaHordes is that it is easier to scale from small to large, which is good for you if your footing the purchases. Also in WarmaHordes the change out of your Warcaster radically effects the way your faction plays. So after a month, you try a new HQ unit and bam...different playstyle. Also very interesting units, huge variety of model styles. And tightly written rules.

Infinity is also a good second choice...if the metals aren't a dealbreaker - If they aren't then let it be known that they are very, very nice metals. For me, Infinity scratches that future war niche, I love their models and their skirmish sized games makes starting up pretty easy.

Time to disclaim that I've play neither game. At my FLGS's miniature nights we have reps from both companies running their respective leagues. I've sat in on full games on many occasions and have spent much more time speaking with them on their perspective systems.

Infinity has a starter box coming out any day now called Operation Icestorm and I've seen starter boxes for Warmahordes at my FLGS too.

I've got to echo Doug on the first two, both great for your needs, and I've heard good things about BA, but haven't played myself. Also, add Star Trek Attack Wing and Star Wars X-Wing into the mix. Both games are fantastic, and inexpensive to start up. Plus SW and ST!!

Keraun0s wrote:
Warmahordes: The fluff grew on me, the models are nice. And the rules seem to work fine. Also, I can play smaller games for a while.

Very competitive, people keep talking about "doing your homework". Uses few miniatures, but they are expensive as hell. Two standard-sized (@35pts) armies would probably cost more than half a thousand dollars.

Keraun0s wrote:
40K or Warhammer Fantasy: Read some of the rules. Really hard to simply teach someone a game when every unit may have extra itens added that do extra magical stuff that's in other book

WHFB is a nice game, but it's expensive as... wait, is there something worse than hell? Two standard-sized (@2500-2800 pts) armies cost more than one thousand dollars.
40k is slightly less expensive (@1500-2000 pts), but still way more expensive than Warmachine, and the ruleset is awful.

Keraun0s wrote:
Infinity: I don't like metal models, but they make some superb ones. Rules seem simple enough, and small size games and the ARO system give it a plus

Looks nice. Difficult to learn. Seems to work best with lots of scenery.

Keraun0s wrote:
Lord of the rings: Dying...

Nope. Dead.

Keraun0s wrote:
So, although I find a massive horde of miniatures battling it out awesome, most probably I won't have the income to pay for it. Knowing that, I decided to settle at the "normal" size for each game.

Kings of War (Mantic) works nicely for large games. The ruleset is quite streamlined, very efficient and pretty easy to learn.

Keraun0s wrote:
Also, can anyone talk about historical gaming? Hail Caesar, Bolt action and flames of war can quench my thirst for massive war at decent prices?

Historical wargaming works differently : the guy who sells the rules isn't the guy who's selling you the minis. And there's no copyrights.

That's why historicals tend to be very inexpensive. Especially if you choose smaller scales like 15mm, 6mm. Or 1/72.

A nice 1500pts 1/72 Bolt Action force would cost you something like 30-40$. You'd get a pretty large force (standard size +50%), with something like 90 infantrymen and two tanks. However, Bolt Action is more like 40k, it's a skirmish game, not really a mass-battle game.

Hail Caesar works really well for mass-battle games, it's pretty similar to Warmaster. And since 1 base = 1 unit, you can easily use smaller scales like 6/15mm to field HORDES of miniatures without spending too much: Baccus 6mm sells large armies (standard-size +50%) for around 80$ each (shipping incl.). That's less than what you'd pay for one 40k unit of 10 Flash Gitz.

Keraun0s wrote:
Hi,
Recently, I began looking into some wargaming systems: GW's PP, Corvus Belli, Wyrd... And decided to take the plunge!
Now, I'm trying to decide on wich games to invest. The reason is I'll be the only one to buy, paint, teach and basically finance it for my group. So I was researching like a madmen about all the games and got to this conclusions:
Warmahordes: The fluff grew on me, the models are nice. And the rules seem to work fine. Also, I can play smaller games for a while.
Infinity: I don't like metal models, but they make some superb ones. Rules seem simple enough, and small size games and the ARO system give it a plus
Wyrd: Rules are ok, don't really like the models( not a horror fan), low model count is nice. Also, plastic.
40K or Warhammer Fantasy: Read some of the rules. Really hard to simply teach someone a game when every unit may have extra itens added that do extra magical stuff that's in other book
Lord of the rings: Dying...

So, although I find a massive horde of miniatures battling it out awesome, most probably I won't have the income to pay for it. Knowing that, I decided to settle at the "normal" size for each game.
How many points of each system seem to be the average? the best combination of money spent and options?
Also, can anyone talk about historical gaming? Hail Caesar, Bolt action and flames of war can quench my thirst for massive war at decent prices?

Hey mate!

I'm in the same situation with regard to buying teaching and supplying the whole experience to my friends.

I would not recommend Warhammer Fantasy Battle, because the figures and books are too expensive, and now there are becoming too many rules and extra books. Warhammer 40k also has a similar problem with very expensive models and too many rulebooks, into a confusing and convoluted mess.

I second Doug on Kings of War (KoW) for large fantasy battles. I use a lot of my old GW models, as well as figures from many many different manufacturers. Rules are free and online, and I'm even making Macedonians, Greeks, Romans, War of the Roses and ECW armies that I will be able to play in KoW as "Kingdoms of Men" or using the unofficial Historical KoW rules (also free). In KoW the unit base size is important as well - not the individual model mbase sizes, so because I use 25mm round bases for lal my models to keep them compatible with other games, I also only use 12 models for a "Unit of 20" - because the base size for a unit of men or elves is 100x80mm. Rules are also very easy to get into and understand.

I would love to play Hail Caesar, but the game scale seems too big for me to properly support - too many figures even for me, and also table larger than I can fit. - though I understand the rules also work well for smaller models. I have the book and many models - which are going to be set up for KoW.

Bolt Action is fun and fast - simple enough to get into quickly, and a lot of fun. It's not entirely accurate - and often described as the "movie version" of WW2 gaming, but it's very worthwhile. Again, you can play this in 28mm or easily use 15mm figures or even 1:72 Airfix, etc figures from a model store.

I've only played a demo of Infinity. It has lovely models and seemed fun, but the rules are almost like an RPG in their complexity and detail - and the last version of them weren't translated well, so I avoided it. If you have someone to teach you, I'd say go for it, but otherwise tread cautiously. There's a new edition which might have better translated rules.

Warmachine/Hordes has a good reputation for rules, and has some nice models. I've got both starter sets and a few extra models, but just never gotten around to doing anything at all with them. Individual models are often more expensive than Games Workshop, making them some of the most expensive around - though you need a lot less of them.

I'd also recommend looking into:

DeadZone by Mantic Games has a good reputation for rules, though the models are a bit less good. New hard plastics look a lot improved, and when I get around to teaching myself to play, I'll be using a lot of my existing Warhammer 40k models because they look a lot better.

SAGA by Tomahawk Games - Dark Ages (or Crusades Era) historical skirmish warband battles with 20-40 models per side. Lots of detailed reviews on the net and very positive feedback.

X-Wing by Fantasy Flight Games. The starter set comes with 3 pre-painted ships, and while the individual models aren't cheap, they are prepainted and good quality. The game is also a lot of fun and one of the most popular around right now. There's also a Star Trek version if you prefer.

May I suggest Warzone Resurrection. Gorgeous models and alot less expensive that 40K. Check out Prodosgames.com

You should pick Warmahordes since it apparently already grew on you, and since you´re going to be "steering the boat" in your group it´s probably the best choice as it doesn´t require that many models to get into. And WM/H can be learned within a few games but takes years and years to master.

You can start with the Battlegroup Boxes ( 15 points I recall ) but I´d recommend armies of atleast 35 points to unlock the full potential of the game.

I think we may be putting the cart before the horse here. A few questions that should be answered before we make any recomendations.

1) How many forces are you planning to buy and paint for each game? Just 2 or enough for the whole club to play at once?

2) What kind of budget do you have to work with?

3) What kind of games is your club most interested in? Are they going to play just to indulge you or are they actually interested in a certain kind of wargame.

4) Will your club mates be buying in eventually or are you the sole game provider for the long haul.

A few comments about the games you and others have mentioned.
- If you're going to have to buy and paint more than 2 armies, I'd skip 40k, WHFB and even (though I love the rules) Kings of War. Find something smaller in scope.
-Warmachine is expensive, but you can quickly put together 4 bare-bones forces and folks can buy more on their own.
-If you want mass battle affordably, then Hail Caesar is probably your best bet. It and it's expansions cover everything from ancients to medieval, and there's lots of deals to be had on historical minis.
-Bolt Action is not really a "Massive" game, but also offers a good sized battle again with the possibility for quite low prices.
-I realize you are out of the USA, but if you are going to be buying alot of historical or generic fantasy figures at once, consider Old Glory minaitures and the "Old Glory Army" card, which gives a massive discount of 40% on a huge range of figures.
-If you like the rules, Infinity is a great game. What's wrong with metal models, especially ones as nice as infinity?
-Check out Song of Blades and Heroes. It's a small scale, generic fantasy skirmish game that costs $8 and the buy-in is however cheaply you can find 7-12 fantasy miniatures. A great game for experienced wargamers too, but also ideal for newbies as it's really easy to teach.

X-Wing is a great option. It's simple enough for even people with no previous gaming experience to learn pretty quickly, but deep enough that experienced players will have a lot of strategy to think about. And everyone loves Star Wars, right? The only real downside is FFG's constant problems keeping stuff in stock, if you don't buy stuff when it's available you'll have a hard time getting it until the next production cycle.

GW games are probably the worst option. They cost an obscene amount of money (hundreds of dollars just to get started, thousands to make a full army), and the rules are unplayable garbage. The only reason to ever play them is if you're already heavily invested in the models and want to use them, if you're new to wargaming stay far away from the GW trainwreck.

 Eilif wrote:
I think we may be putting the cart before the horse here. A few questions that should be answered before we make any recomendations.

1) How many forces are you planning to buy and paint for each game? Just 2 or enough for the whole club to play at once?

2) What kind of budget do you have to work with?

3) What kind of games is your club most interested in? Are they going to play just to indulge you or are they actually interested in a certain kind of wargame.

4) Will your club mates be buying in eventually or are you the sole game provider for the long haul.

A few comments about the games you and others have mentioned.

1) Initially, I need two teams for any system... but if i start to like the game, I plan to expand my initial armies, and also acquire others for multiplayer games.

2) I can confortably pay for 200 USD every month... But my spending will be dictated more by my speed to paint,

3) They're going to play with me, but they are also not wargamers. So, they don't know any system. We use to play boardgames.

4) I'm probably the sole provider for the long haul. I don't see them have the income to pay for everything needed to game.

Recently I got in touch with some 40K players( more like collectors) from around town. One of them even invited me to play a demo game and even gave me an Dark Angels Chapter Master and urged me to start a Dark Angels army. I tried to read the rules, but the sheer options of every squad and the special rules for everything and the rumor that codex ruin your army balance, and also once your army is made up is too costly to change your units to adapt to another strategy left me with mixed feelings. Their models are awesome, but their ruleset seems to convoluted for my once in a while gaming sessions.

I would first point you to 40k, but as you say you have already tried it then I would say If you want massive battles and you are on a budget, then kings of war seems like a good choice for you. The free and decent ruleset makes up for the terrible minis, although thats just my opinion, plenty of people like them.
You can use any fantasy lines though so thats another plus point while the rules are pretty straight forward therefore easy to learn and enjoyable.

Based on your answers, and the fact that you already like the models, fluff and rules I'd suggest Warmachine. It's not a game I play, but it meets all your criteria and you already seem to like it. I can't stress enough that when it comes to a game to choose, it really is important that it's something that catches your interest since you'll be spending so much time with it.

Speaking practically, it's a game that you can quickly buy and paint up two armies for and expand later. $200 is enough to get you started with 2 medium-small and 2 small (A battlebox and two battlegeroups) starter armies. If you're setting up the game for your gamer friends, you can easily put down simple well-matched forces for some quick fun. Then you can tool up a force to play against folks in your local gaming community.

If the loadout options for 40k were intimidating, then you'll find WM a nice change. There are still TONS of options, but they're more in terms of what combination of units and how to play them, rather than the 40k choices which are what weapons and wargear to give each individual model. At this point, I think your initial experience with 40k is reality. It's an over-burdened ruleset for a game that's really expensive. Don't head that way unless you really feel passionate about the game because it's a huge investment in money and time.

If you have to have massive battles, then KoW is a good choice. It's affordable ($30 rulebook includes 8 army lists), and flexible and very easy to learn. My warning there is that small battles in KoW just aren't very interesting. It's really a game made for Company level (100+ figs on each side) and you really don't have enough units on the table for an engaging game until you get near that level.

Why not start with Warmachine and then see if there's enough interest to warrant the massive painting effort that would be required for KoW?

I don't like the mantic models...I like them as a company( better than my hate of GW), but their elves are all to slim and armoured for my tastes...

They are easy to paint models?

Also, I could see me playing some kind of historical game. I'm a sucker for anything roman, but I really don't care for gauls or other enemies of the romans...

Also, torn between Bolt action or flames of war.What's the big difference between them?

I play both Bolt Action and Flames of War so maybe I can help although I hope others can chime in with better information.

Bolt Action is typically played using 28mm miniatures although other sizes can be used if you want. I've seen people playing it with 15mm but only once. Bolt Action uses an "orders" system which can be both fun and frustrating! This is a good thing it really keeps you thinking during the game but not as much about "rules" as it does about what are YOUR next orders going to be. This game plays different than other WWII games I've tried specifically regarding vehicles but not in a bad way I think. Just don't assume a King Tiger will rule the game board. In fact the smaller vehicles are more useful than tanks many times, assuming you want to take vehicles at all. Of course trucks and other transports are vulnerable but they will be needed for weapons like AT guns and howitzers.

Flames of War I've only ever seen played in 15mm size but others have reported using 28mm and 1/285 scales. The game is very popular where I live and it's a great game to put a lot of tanks on the table. Which I like I will admit. The game can also work well for both tournaments and historical recreations. Although how a historical game plays out during the game feels "odd" to me but the results at the end feel "right."

In short;
Bolt Action - A Hollywood movie game that gets you down in the dirt. Think "Band of Brothers", "Kelly's Heroes" "Saving Private Ryan" those kind of movies.
FoW - Another Hollywood movie game but this time you can command larger units and assets. Think "Patton", "A Bridge too Far", etc though there are fewer movies like this I guess but the point is the game is a higher level of unit command than Bolt Action.

I like both games and think they're different enough to keep my interest. If I had to choose it would be Bolt Action. Between the two I think Bolt Action is easier to learn but still tactically interesting for solid "replayability." Also, I find Flames of War to be a bit more "gamey" with their rules but that is an advantage to some people and I was one of them about 5-10 years ago. Now I play so rarely that I need a rules set I don't have to keep up with and Bolt Action currently fits that need of mine.

GW is in BIG trouble if Warlord Games get's it's act together and pushes their Sci-Fi game onto the market soon as it uses a similar mechanic to Bolt Action.

As Consul Scipio says, the biggest difference between the two is scale and scope.

Flames of War is a 15mm game played out at company, up to battallion level play.

Bolt Action is a 28mm platoon level game

Both can technically be played at either level, but that's what their usually played at. They both have official miniatures and the option to use cheaper minis from other companies.

As to Kings of War minis, they're probably a bit easier to paint than Warhammer, having slightly less ornamentation, but if you don't like the minis, just use one of the many other fantasy companies. Kings of War doesn't really have much of a tournament scene, so if you like the rules, but not the models, theres really no reason to have to use KoW models.

I myself have been looking into games like song of blades and heros, flying lead, and vortex. These open ended systems let people play with their collections and gives them a "safe" way of dipping their toes into other games by picking up models from throws systems with out having to commit.

Bolt Action is fun to play and there are dozens of companies that make compatible miniatures for it.

Bolt Action and FoW are pretty similar except for scale all wrapped up in a nice GW-like h-h-hobby package. (I.e. both will have you believe that they are WW2 I that scale)

If you want good balanced WW2 rules that will do anything from Company sized up then get the Battlegroup Kursk rules from Ironfist Publishing. I would say they are superior to the previous two rulesets but confess to having lass gamertime on. Bolt Action.

You can then choose you scale but WW2 is ordinarily done in 20mm. You are then free to choose one of the many 20mm ranges that are all far cheaper than 15mm or 28mm. I would suggest this might be a good idea if you are subsidising a group.

Finally if you want a SciFi or Fantasy set in the cheap both Necromuda and Mordheim remain some of the best games available. Both have the GW aesthetic and are free. Check them out at www.gaming.Yaktribe.org.

You can get both of these games going for 20 miniatures and a bunch of terrain. If your the creative type and make your over terrain then you could be rocking a game on a 4' x 4' table for less than £50.

I've noticed the local group around me doing something kinda similar lately. One guy bought the 2p DZC set, and showed the game to everyone. This week I find out that one of the guys bought a bunch of Infinity (PanO and Aleph I believe) and people have been playing demo games with them to get a feel for the game.

I hope your friends realize how awesome you are and return the favor by introducing more people to more games.

I finally made my choice( at least for now)

for the next 6 months, I'm balls deep in Warmahordes, infinity and Malifaux. After this I'm leaning towards some Warlord games, Maybe something like Deadzone, Dropzone or one of the spartan games.

Reading the forum and asking some questions I decided to steer away from GW. It really saddens me, but there's no way I can sustain multiple armies of 40k and fantasy. Lord of the rings seem to be digging a shallow grave for itself.

So far I'm looking to buy into many systems

First Half of 2015

*Malifaux,
*IInfinity,
*Warmahordes

Second Half( when my painting skills get better and I can slow build armies while playing the first three games)

Some "real world" game
*Bolt Action or *Flames of War( leaning for bolt action-keeping everything 28mm)

Some big army game

Kings of War
40k and Warhammer/Lord of the Rings

Some vehicular battle game

*Spartan games
*Dropzone Commander

The hardest by far is the big army game...I don't like the style of mantic miniatures, But hate the lack of boundaries in GW rulesets. Make impossible for me to buy that overpriced models, and not only this, the huge bloated ruleset that kinda force you to read a core rulebook and many codexes as you have armies, and each squad have this and that weapon, and this and that upgrade...Not a system that a lone buyer can hope to mantain and teach others... I love their models, and the fluff is awesome for both universes( high elves are cool, and giant wolf riders push all my buttons...but the simple myriad of options and whatnot will make hard to teach friends that play once in a while...

I love tolkien and my friends too.By far the most easy choice if wasn't for the price of the models, the difficult of what a starter army is and how to collect some armies( some have barelly any model left on the GW webstore)

So Can anyone give me insight about my gaming life wave 2? Please don't think I'm bashing GW, but I hate them for their pratices, their prices and apparently their posture of high and mighty above everyone.

Well, I'll try to give some reasonable sample calculations:

Here are my Cyriss armies for an RTT in November (42 pts):

Forge Master Syntherion – Theme Tier 4 – 42 pts
Syntherion (+6) + Spells cost less during 1st turn
- Corollary (-3) +1 Focus point
- Cipher (-9)
- Monitor (-8)
- Assimilator (-8)
- Conservator (-7)
- Diffuser (-3)
- Mitigator (-4)
- Galvanizer (theme bonus)
Optifex Directive (-2)
Attunement Servitors (-2)
2x Algorithmic Dispersion Optifex (-2) + Advanced Deployment

Father Lucant, Divinity Architect – 42 pts
Lucant (+5)
- Corollary (-3)
- Inverter (-8)
- Cipher (-9)
max. Reciprocators (-9)
min. Reductors (-4)
max. Obstructors (-6)
2x Enigma Foundry (-6)
Optifex Directive (-2)

Total cost: 545 Euro, including the Cyriss softcover book and the rule book (20 Euro).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here is my Necron list which served me well in 6th and 7th ed. (1850 pts):

DLord
3x 5 Wraiths
2x 10 Warriors w/ Nightscythes
2x 10 Immortals w/ Nightscythes
3 Annihilation Barges,

Total cost: 653 Euro, incl. codex and rulebook.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

My Necron army is about 5000 pt and I field it regularly in apoc games.
The remaining models add up to 450 Euro.

In Cyriss I have all models and units exactly once and this is quite enough bar Clockwork Angels.
The additional models/units add up to 370 Euro.
Its noteworthy to say that I have no Prime Axiom (colossal) for 135 Euro (useful at the 50 pt level).
The battle engine will be released soon (approx. 75 Euro).

It should be added that Cyriss is the smallest faction (which is rather new in the WM/H universe).
Others have a much greater variety and access to mercenaries or minions.

Summing up, WMH/H can hardly be considered cheaper than 40k.

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, I'll try to give some reasonable sample calculations:

Here are my Cyriss armies for an RTT in November (42 pts):

Forge Master Syntherion – Theme Tier 4 – 42 pts
Syntherion (+6) + Spells cost less during 1st turn
- Corollary (-3) +1 Focus point
- Cipher (-9)
- Monitor (-8)
- Assimilator (-8)
- Conservator (-7)
- Diffuser (-3)
- Mitigator (-4)
- Galvanizer (theme bonus)
Optifex Directive (-2)
Attunement Servitors (-2)
2x Algorithmic Dispersion Optifex (-2) + Advanced Deployment

Father Lucant, Divinity Architect – 42 pts
Lucant (+5)
- Corollary (-3)
- Inverter (-8)
- Cipher (-9)
max. Reciprocators (-9)
min. Reductors (-4)
max. Obstructors (-6)
2x Enigma Foundry (-6)
Optifex Directive (-2)

Total cost: 545 Euro, including the Cyriss softcover book and the rule book (20 Euro).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here is my Necron list which served me well in 6th and 7th ed. (1850 pts):

DLord
3x 5 Wraiths
2x 10 Warriors w/ Nightscythes
2x 10 Immortals w/ Nightscythes
3 Annihilation Barges,

Total cost: 653 Euro, incl. codex and rulebook.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

In reality my Necron army is much larger than my Cryiss one.

In Cyriss I have all models and units exactly once and this is quite enough bar Clockwork Angels.
The additional models/units add up to 330 Euro.
Its noteworthy to say that I have no Prime Axiom (colossal) for 135 Euro (useful at the 50 pt level).
The battle engine will be released soon (approx. 75 Euro).

It should be added that Cyriss is the smallest faction (which is rather new in the WM/H universe).
Others have a much greater variety and access to mercenaries or minions.

I never played any game from GW. I came to the reasoning that to play a "normal" sized game of warmachine and other systems, I would need the following:

Warmachine/Hordes: 35-50 pts
Malifaux: 50ss max
Infinity: no idea about pts, but usually 10-12 minis
Bolt action: 1000-1200 pts
40k or Fantasy: 2000 pts and up.

The thing is not that some miniatures are more expensive than others. I happen to aknowledge that warmachine have some very expensive kits.The problem that I have with GW( and if I'm wrong please correct me about it- I only gave the ruleset a light read) is that:

1 - I need much more to have a cool army with many options: I like Dark Angels. I went to the GW site to see some minis. 60 usd for 5 Deathwing Knights. That would be cool if I wanted only one of them. But I'll need 3 or 4 terminator squads to build that in my army.

2 - The zillions of options: I play rarely. So a ruleset and options that I can remember at least to some degree is essential. Warmachine has rules, but the units have their card, like Malifaux too. If I can remember the core rules, I just need to read the cards and I can play. GW games the rules are all on the books, recquiring huge amounts of memory just to get them straight.

3 - Codex kill units that I have: From what I read, GW from time to time simply nerf units and change rules, causing entire armies to become nearly useless. You build your army with a ruleset in mind and them they change it because then you need to buy new minis.

Just getting clear. I will play for fun. There's no GW store on my Country, nor game group. I will teach people and playfor fun among friends. So the 3 issues above are keeping me from getting into the awesome miniatures GW make. If their own fans seem to hate the rules, how can a novice like myself hope to have some fun with this company games? I would love to spend my cash with GW, if only I din't feel that this course of action leads me to spend a lot and have units removed, cumbersome rulesets I can't remember and can't teach a new friend for us to have some fun for a couple hours.

Can anyone show me where my thinking is wrong? Or I am right and should really let GW go, although I keep longing for the awesome miniatures both 40k and Fantasy?

Warmachine has a smooth curve for entry and then gets pretty steep as you build up a force. New players don't tend to buy multiples of jacks, beasts or units, and tend to pick a caster and some units after the battlegroup, then collect the rest of the faction until they get to those higher point games. I think a lot of the "card-not-codex" games do this a bit (I doubt I will ever run all 3 Death Marshalls TBH). Still, the Pokemon mentality takes over, and it's nice to see the full range of options the faction has.

PP may at times "kill" a model or unit (though it's really just because they've added something that tends to counter that model/unit better than before), but it's never crippled an entire army with a new release. I doubt anyone will disagree with that.

It's odd, since I love reading lore and stuff in games, but I've never really fallen in love with the WM/H or Malifaux storylines. I really wish I knew. It's a tightrope we fluffies walk daily....

I'm in your boat as far as 40k goes. I'm just waiting for some nerd to say "screw IP" and write something Priestlyesque for us. Or maybe just something that makes sense for n00bs. I think card-contained rules is amazing for this. I've already gotten the hang of M2E like I got the hang of Hordes... I have never played a game of 40k without rulebook flipping, but I managed to RUN a KoW demo game while only really referencing the stats/special rules.

Edit: wrong thread.

If someone know how to delete this, please help me.

Okey.. If you are getting into Infinity I'd look at the Operation Icestorm box set. And a couple of extra starter boxes. Maybe a second set of Mototronica Scenery pack. That way you have more terrain for very little monies. In addition one extra mini for each starter box. No TAGS or Remotes needed at the early stages of play. You should be able to field games of 200 pts. fairly easy with a fairly low cash outlay.
The rules are as mentioned earlier free online. And armybuilders are also free for both iOS and Android. Named Mayanet and ALEPH Toolkit respectively.

Most of the starter boxes are well balanced. But some are regarded as less than newbie friendly. ALEPH's starters are amongst these. Can't comment on the accuracy of that as I have yet to play mine. (Slow painter at times).

Here's some pro's and cons.

It seems like you're looking for a skirmish game, and a relatively sanely priced one. THis puts GW games out (love them though i do!).

I have played the games i'm going to comment on ; i no longer play any of them, but that's another story for another day. All 3 are good.



Privateer Press games - Warmachine Hordes

Reasonable buy in. 50 USD gets you started. The rules are pretty good - easy to learn, moderately difficult to master. The sculpt quality can be a little all over the place, but i'm hoping the recent move to hard plastic injection mold will help out with that. The themes are really cool.
Terrain: a reasonable amount but don't need a huge amount.

Corvus Belli - Infinity - New rules are great, does away with the first editions Rock/Paper/Scissors feel. Relatively cheap buy in - again, 50-75 bucks gets you a playable skirmish force. YOU NEED TONS OF TERRAIN OR THE GAME IS STUPID. I"m serious. Infinity requires the highest amount of terrain per square foot of table space of any of the skirmish games, and without the proper amount of terrain, the game is downright queer. With the right amount of terrain, its awesome. I say this, because if you're not a modeler by heart, you might be looking at buying terrain which is a very real expense with Infinity.


Malifaux - haven't played 2.0, but i hear mostly good things. The complexity-for-its-own-sake problems of V1.0 are gone for the most part, which is a good thing. 50 buck buy in gets you rolling. THe new plastics are flippin' gorgeous pretty much across the board. If you like your models to have realistic proportions and appear lifelike, this might be the game for you. The genre is great, it borrows from a lot of themes. Overall a great game ; bummed out it died around my area.


Mercs is another one to look at ; very cool game - your army is 4 or 5 models out of a choice of 6 or 7. No points. The only funky thing is the measurement tools but i hear they are working on it. Sci Fi game, but super neat. Really clever way of re-imagining a skirmish wargame.


Dark Age: Relatively minimum buyin. Sculpts are all over the place in terms of quality. Release schedule is schiztophrenic at best. That said.... if they can ever truly, truly get their house in order, this is one of the better skirmish games on the market right now in terms of ruleset and pacing. Its a really, really great game. I wish they could get sculptors GW has, with the release schedule continuity that PP has, and this game would be an absolute beast in the market.

Corvus Belli are selling card terrain packs now which at least get you enough terrain to play on the cheap quickly, without having to buy the more expensive kits or make your own.

The card terrain pack would be the Mototronica Scenery pack.
And yes Infinity needs a lot of terrain. But no need for it to cost a small fortune. Which is why I mentioned the Mototronica option. Another one would be scratch built terrain.

Just a side note. Even though I haven't played Malifaux I've heard it requires almost as much terrain as Infinity.