Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Long time lurker here, I just recently sold a space marine army and thinking about picking up a O&G army, have always loved the models and theme. I've done some digging and tried to make a decent generic list so that I can start building my forces. I want the list to be as well rounded as possible, I really don't know what armies I'll be facing.

At the moment I'm down 155 points from my limit. I know I could fit in either 2 manglers+dispel, 10 BO+dispel, flesh out the wolf riders/savages. I really don't know where I should spend it.

LORDS - 478
+Orc Warboss
-->Armor of Destiny, Sword of Might, Shield
+Savage Orc Great Shaman
-->Lucky Shrunken Head, Fencer's Blades, Level 4

HEROES - 215
+Black Orc Big Boss
-->BSB, Enchanted Shield, Sword of Battle
+Night Goblin Shaman
-->Level 1, Dispel Scroll

CORE - 850
+Savage Orc Boyz x38
-->Boss, Musician, Standard Bearer, AHW, Big 'Uns
-->[BSB & SOGS Here]
+Night Goblins x49
-->Standard Bearer, Musician, 3x Fanatics, HW, shields, nets
-->[NG Shaman Here]
+Goblin Wolf Riders x5
-->Spears
+Goblin Wolf Riders x5
-->Spears

SPECIAL - 712
+Black Orcs x29
-->Boss, Musician, Standard Bearer, Shields, Banner Of Discipline
-->[WB Here]
+Orc Boar Chariot
+Mangler Squig x2
+Spear Chukka x2

RARE - 245
+Doom Diver Catapult x2
+Goblin Rock Lobber

Total - 2500

The list looks very solid. The one thing that pops out at me first is the standards on the wolf riders. You already have banners from your big blocks, so I wouldn't be too worried about Blood and Glory-style missions. The +1 to combat res is nice, but the extra points don't really provide a lot of benefit for chaff and losing that standard in combat is another 25 points lost. I would recommend using musicians for easier regrouping and winning out on ties (or at least not losing!)

From what I've seen, spear chukkas are not terribly popular among O&G due to their unreliability. BS 3 with misfires on 1's and having to shoot solid shots is rough compared to their elven counterparts. A rock lobba might serve you better, since you already have the doom divers to help deal with armor.

Your main units and characters are all really solid IMO.

Solid list. Just a few minor things:

- I'd get your Great Shaman to a lvl4.

- drop the spears on those Night Goblins. Bows or hand weapon + shield, all the way.

- Shortbows are usually the only thing you see on Wolf Rider units. Sometimes musicians.

- you pay a big premium on Black Orcs for a few abilities that aren't all that useful.
This is doubly true for Black Orc characters. The only time a Black Orc Hero or Lord is really going to be pulling his weight is when he's not in a Black Orc unit.
So I feel like you could downgrade the unit and/or the character, without losing much.

- Boar Chariots are inferior to Wolf Chariots. They're tougher, and have more effective attacks, but for a 60% increase in cost, you're getting the same results out of their best ability: impact hits.
3 Wolf Chariots would be better, and cost 10pts less.

- Spear Chukkas are AMAZING. Even if you factor in their Slipshod rule, they are, point-for-point, better than the Elven versions. 35pts is just awesome. 4-6 of them is a common sight.

As to what you can add:

- Mangler Squigs are a staple in almost every O&G list. Then again, so are tons and tons of war machines.

- Pump Wagons are a great Chariot/Mangler hybrid.

- Trolls rock.

- What do you mean by "+dispel"? You've already got a Dispel Scroll.

Warptide wrote:
The list looks very solid. The one thing that pops out at me first is the standards on the wolf riders. You already have banners from your big blocks, so I wouldn't be too worried about Blood and Glory-style missions. The +1 to combat res is nice, but the extra points don't really provide a lot of benefit for chaff and losing that standard in combat is another 25 points lost. I would recommend using musicians for easier regrouping and winning out on ties (or at least not losing!)

From what I've seen, spear chukkas are not terribly popular among O&G due to their unreliability. BS 3 with misfires on 1's and having to shoot solid shots is rough compared to their elven counterparts. A rock lobba might serve you better, since you already have the doom divers to help deal with armor.

Your main units and characters are all really solid IMO.

I ended up taking all command away from my wolf riders, taking a second look i agree there's not much benefit. I really like spear chukkas, for less than a rock lobber I get 2. I did take your advice and bring a rock lobber.

Warpsolution wrote:
Solid list. Just a few minor things:

- I'd get your Great Shaman to a lvl4.

- drop the spears on those Night Goblins. Bows or hand weapon + shield, all the way.

- Shortbows are usually the only thing you see on Wolf Rider units. Sometimes musicians.

- you pay a big premium on Black Orcs for a few abilities that aren't all that useful.
This is doubly true for Black Orc characters. The only time a Black Orc Hero or Lord is really going to be pulling his weight is when he's not in a Black Orc unit.
So I feel like you could downgrade the unit and/or the character, without losing much.

- Boar Chariots are inferior to Wolf Chariots. They're tougher, and have more effective attacks, but for a 60% increase in cost, you're getting the same results out of their best ability: impact hits.
3 Wolf Chariots would be better, and cost 10pts less.

- Spear Chukkas are AMAZING. Even if you factor in their Slipshod rule, they are, point-for-point, better than the Elven versions. 35pts is just awesome. 4-6 of them is a common sight.

As to what you can add:

- Mangler Squigs are a staple in almost every O&G list. Then again, so are tons and tons of war machines.

- Pump Wagons are a great Chariot/Mangler hybrid.

- Trolls rock.

- What do you mean by "+dispel"? You've already got a Dispel Scroll.

1. Upgraded shaman to lvl 4, didn't see a reason I shouldn't. I'm already spending a lot of points on him as is.

2. Why do you suggest dropping the spears? The upgrade for spears is free and they have shields to start. Why would you take HW > Spears if spears are free?

3. I can see merit in short bows too, I think the spears would be helpful for taking down war machines. I gave one set spears and the other short bows.

4. I'm a bit confused here with the black orcs. I do know they aren't the most efficient, but I already have a big un' unit and the str 4 I feel like is worth it. My characters are split so that the regular orc warboss is with the BO unit and the BOBB is with the savage orc big un's. I think he will be helpful at keeping them in rein.

5. I had been contemplating removing a chariot in place of 2 mangler squigs. The math hadn't worked out before but I've managed it now. I think a single orc boar chariot is acceptable here, unless I have a better use of 35 points. Maybe a 3rd spear chukka?

6. I have a unit of trolls already, only 3. If I end up using them I think I would replace my black orcs with a big unit of trolls. They feel a bit too pricey to have roaming around. 35 points for one where as I could get a spear chukka instead.


Thanks for the comments both of you. I think the list improved quite a bit, with the addition of both mangler squigs, lvl 4 shaman, rock lobber without losing too much of the previous list.

 Krungle wrote:
2. Why do you suggest dropping the spears? The upgrade for spears is free and they have shields to start. Why would you take HW > Spears if spears are free?

They loose their Parry save, and spears don't work if you charge.
Also it's only the third rank (4th if you go horde) that will benefit from the spears. Once this rank disapears from casualties, then the benefit goes as well.
This is why many prefer the parry instead.

I had totally forgotten about parry saves. Seeing as I'm going to use them as a "tar pit" the parry saves will be much better.

 Krungle wrote:
4. I'm a bit confused here with the black orcs. I do know they aren't the most efficient, but I already have a big un' unit and the str 4 I feel like is worth it. My characters are split so that the regular orc warboss is with the BO unit and the BOBB is with the savage orc big un's. I think he will be helpful at keeping them in rein.

Black Orcs cost quite a bit more than regular boys, but they die just as fast. They have their uses (S7 in the first round is amazing, and ITP plus never suffering from animosity make them the only truly reliable thing in the book), but that increased point cost racks up quick.

 Krungle wrote:
5. I had been contemplating removing a chariot in place of 2 mangler squigs. The math hadn't worked out before but I've managed it now. I think a single orc boar chariot is acceptable here, unless I have a better use of 35 points. Maybe a 3rd spear chukka?

A Wolf Chariot and a Spear Chukka is far better than one Boar Chariot.

 Krungle wrote:
6. I have a unit of trolls already, only 3. If I end up using them I think I would replace my black orcs with a big unit of trolls. They feel a bit too pricey to have roaming around. 35 points for one where as I could get a spear chukka instead.

Trolls are just incredible. 35pts for S5 T4 A3 W3 and Regeneration is fantastic. In units of 6+, or even just as single models, for yet more chaff. They are some of the cheapest and the most durable Monstrous Infantry.

I think I'm going to stick with black orcs for the time being, I wouldnt swap them out for regular orcs. I'd lose WS, Saves, high strength great weapons, and would start taking animosity tests. To correct that I'd have to spend 50 points turning my warboss into a black orc. It is a possibility to bring a group of trolls along instead of black orcs, bumping my warboss into the savages.

Savage big uns would be better than blorcs. The 5++(shrunken head) is more durable against higher strength attacks, and the choppy bonus+ more attacks would counter the strength bonus. Stick a Blorc BSB in there and you ignore frenzy.


Plus, they make core tax.

@Krungle: I am by no means saying Black Orcs are bad. They're just not Da' Best, sadly. But use them, if you want!
It's stupid that a Black Orc character is wasted in a unit of Black Orcs. I wish there was some unit-wide benefit they granted

@thedarkavenger...the list already has all that.

Warpsolution wrote:
@Krungle: I am by no means saying Black Orcs are bad. They're just not Da' Best, sadly. But use them, if you want!
It's stupid that a Black Orc character is wasted in a unit of Black Orcs. I wish there was some unit-wide benefit they granted.

I do agree that their profile is nothing spectacular, the "armed to da teef" is almost pointless IMO, we still pay for shields. I just don't see any other choices. Trolls would be nice, but my savages would be a huge deathstar target.

@thedarkavenger when you say "ignore frenzy" do you mean that by having a non frenzied character in the unit, the unit is no longer frenzied? Or are you saying that for the reroll Ld tests? I've assumed that the BOBBBSB suffered from the frenzy minus the attack bonus.

BSB reroll and general buff. You should pass most, if not all frenzy checks. As for the Blorc BSB, in a unit of savages, he's a godsend.

@Warpsolution, any list with room for blorcs has room for more savages and war machines.

I've seen a big block of Savages and a big block of Trolls (9+) do well pulling fire off one another.

@thedarkavenger: would you really suggest more than 40 Savages?

Warpsolution wrote:
I've seen a big block of Savages and a big block of Trolls (9+) do well pulling fire off one another.

@thedarkavenger: would you really suggest more than 40 Savages?

Well, they do fill the same roll as Blorcs.

Unless you're running a fluffy Grimgor list, I struggle to see a scenario where Savages don't outperform Blorcs.

Even with great weapons against monsters, where the Armed to Da Teef rule comes into it's own, the savages do better due to the ward.


I don't suggest taking more than 40-50 in a unit. But if you have blorcs, then you can drop them for more savages.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

Warpsolution wrote:
I've seen a big block of Savages and a big block of Trolls (9+) do well pulling fire off one another.

@thedarkavenger: would you really suggest more than 40 Savages?

Well, they do fill the same roll as Blorcs.

Unless you're running a fluffy Grimgor list, I struggle to see a scenario where Savages don't outperform Blorcs.

Even with great weapons against monsters, where the Armed to Da Teef rule comes into it's own, the savages do better due to the ward.


I don't suggest taking more than 40-50 in a unit. But if you have blorcs, then you can drop them for more savages.

I already have 40 savage big 'uns, I wouldnt be able to make another big 'un unit. I mean in that case I say Borcs are superior to regular savages. They both have a 6+ ward/parry save, Borcs can use great weapons, Borcs have better WS, have actual armor. Now I agree that savage orc big 'uns would be a better choice. It looks like O&G don't have too many options for fighting monsters, steam tanks, etc. I think Borcs can do that pretty well. After the first round 3 str 3 attacks from regular savage orcs aren't too impressive.

Savage big uns do the same thing as black orcs.

By making a second unit your bunker, you can get a more durable unit against most threats.

And blorcs are only S5 if they parry.

And armour gets negated, the ward doesn't. You get a 6+ vs a clanrat and vs a cannon.

Multiple S5 is better than less S7 if that means you strike after the monster in question and lose attacks.

...you know you only get one unit of Big 'Uns, right?
And you only get one Lucky Shrunken Head?

I think a bunker of regular Savage Orcs is a terrible idea. You're paying more points for a bunker that's less durable to most shooting and more likely to behave in a decidedly un-bunkerish way.

Regular WS3 S3 Savage Orcs are not as good as Black Orcs. That much is obvious.

And I'd also point out that, with I2, you may well be striking after your opponent anyway.

Say you're facing off against a WS3 S6 T6 I2 A6 monster that has four Orcs in base-to-base.
20 Savage Big 'Uns swing with 20 attacks, 13.3 hit, 4.4 wound. The monster swings back for 6.5 hits (stomp), 5.4 wounds, and 3.6 after saves.
The Black Orcs would take those wounds first, then swing back with 15 attacks, 10 hits, and 6.7 wounds.

And that monster is pretty much cherry-picked to be more favorable towards the Savages with a low WS and I.

Not that Black Orcs are better. They're still a far cry from Savage Big 'Uns. But they're not a horrible choice.
...though I'd still suggest more Trolls, Spear Chukkas, Rock Lobbas, Doom Divers, Chariots and Manglers.

@thedarkavenger, Are you suggesting that I replace my Borc unit with a regular unit of savage orcs? Placing my warboss with them? Or are you saying put my BSB & Shaman in a regular savage orc unit, at that point i feel the lucky shrunken head is not reasonable.

Warpsolution wrote:
...you know you only get one unit of Big 'Uns, right?
And you only get one Lucky Shrunken Head?

I think a bunker of regular Savage Orcs is a terrible idea. You're paying more points for a bunker that's less durable to most shooting and more likely to behave in a decidedly un-bunkerish way.

Regular WS3 S3 Savage Orcs are not as good as Black Orcs. That much is obvious.

And I'd also point out that, with I2, you may well be striking after your opponent anyway.

Say you're facing off against a WS3 S6 T6 I2 A6 monster that has four Orcs in base-to-base.
20 Savage Big 'Uns swing with 20 attacks, 13.3 hit, 4.4 wound. The monster swings back for 6.5 hits (stomp), 5.4 wounds, and 3.6 after saves.
The Black Orcs would take those wounds first, then swing back with 15 attacks, 10 hits, and 6.7 wounds.

And that monster is pretty much cherry-picked to be more favorable towards the Savages with a low WS and I.

Not that Black Orcs are better. They're still a far cry from Savage Big 'Uns. But they're not a horrible choice.
...though I'd still suggest more Trolls, Spear Chukkas, Rock Lobbas, Doom Divers, Chariots and Manglers.

They are very good at being hunters, or anything high toughness, low model count. I am bringing 2 doom divers, 2 spear chukka, and a rock lobba, I thought this was an absorbant amount of artillery for a O&G . The only way I could add more manglers/artillery/trolls is my replacing the black orcs with a medium unit of trolls. Leaving leftovers for artillery. You don't think it would be a bad idea to have 2 lords & a hero in a already expensive unit. You know don't put all your eggs in one basket. Also what are the rules on putting a orc warboss in a unit of monstrous infantry? Where in the rulebook would I find this.

You have the savage big uns. They fill the exact role as blorcs, but do it far better.

As such, you can either drop the blorcs for war machines and chaff, or get more savages, as a bunker. The latter option gives you a bunker and a combat block. Which is what I'm advocating.

 thedarkavenger wrote:
get more savages, as a bunker...gives you a bunker and a combat block.

Orc Arrer Boyz are better choice for a bunker. They can still participate in the game while your General sits back and passes out Ld, are fairly cheap, more reliable than Frenzied units, and are still as effective as S4 T4 models can be in combat.

 Krungle wrote:
I thought this was an absorbant amount of artillery

Oddly enough, O&G do very well as a primarily shooty army. Most lists you'll see include the Savagestar, a few Night Goblin blocks, Manglers, Wolf Chariots, and a ton of war machines (10 not being remotely unusual).

 Krungle wrote:
The only way I could add more manglers/artillery/trolls is my replacing the black orcs with a medium unit of trolls. Leaving leftovers for artillery.

And if you wanted Da' Best list, that's probably what you should do.
But if you like Black Orcs a lot, then use them! You aren't going to completely screw yourself over by keeping them in.

 Krungle wrote:
You don't think it would be a bad idea to have 2 lords & a hero in a already expensive unit.

I do, personally. But there are quite a few players who run those All-Or-Nothing style lists. They tend to win hard and lose hard.

 Krungle wrote:
what are the rules on putting a orc warboss in a unit of monstrous infantry? Where in the rulebook would I find this.

He wouldn't get a Look Out, Sir! roll, so it's not a good idea.

Thanks everyone for helping finish up my list. Great discussion. I'll probably be picking up 9 "trolls" and try both set ups. I can see them being just as effective.

A good call. In most cases, they'll be a lot more effective. They won't smash face as hard, but that 4+ Regeneration is amazing. And S5 every round to boot.

Warpsolution wrote:
A good call. In most cases, they'll be a lot more effective. They won't smash face as hard, but that 4+ Regeneration is amazing. And S5 every round to boot.

Actually Troll do better than Black Orcs. You have vomits for dealing with armour.

Or you have a tonne of S5 attacks to deal with infantry, and stomps.

I don't have the book on me, but I believe 30 Black Orcs cost about the same as 12 trolls. If so...

T4 models with 4+ armour:

- Black Orcs do 16.7 wounds
- Trolls do 13.3 with regular attacks or vomit

T5 models with 3+ armour:

- Black Orcs do 16.7 wounds
- Trolls do 8 with regular attacks or vomit.

T3 models with 1+ armour:

- Black Orcks do 11.1 wounds
- Trolls do 8 with regular attacks or 13.3 with vomit.

And that's assuming that the trolls can get 6 models in base to base, and that none of these opponents are WS3 or lower, which would make the B'orcs even better.

It's when you start comparing wounds dealt to wounds taken that trolls come out ahead.

Looking at those numbers Borcs definitely do more damage, but you are right that the 4+ regen is very handy. I guess it could also come down to the army I'm phasing. High strength models will do more wounds comparable to the Borcs. Where as low strength <3 will do about the same wounds but the Borcs will be killing more of them. Also flaming will be bad news for trolls.

How effective is artillery for monster hunting vs a small unit (20) of black orcs?

I've seen lists that have a unit of 20 black orcs with flaming banner used to chase down monsters, but thats about it. You could, as some have suggested, expand your spear chukkas to serve as anti-cav, and let your catepult work any monsters/hordes as you see fit.

But as has been said previously, take what you like the look and feel of. Black orcs are still viable (and who doesnt love the idea of some hardened drake hunters scaring the rest of the mob into line?)

20 Black Orcs will be more effective, but also considerably more expensive. 300+pts.

Rock Lobbers can threaten anything with that center hole, but they're pretty unreliable.
Doom Divers will hit more often, but at only S5, they'll struggle against a lot of the big toughies.
Spear Chukkas are somewhere in-between. But at 35pts, they're pretty great.