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Made in us
Loyal Necron Lychguard





Virginia

Hey guys. I wanted to start a thread talking about (or, in some cases, ranting about) the inconsistency in some rules and/or how they don't make sense. I have a few gripes about this game, personally, and I wanna see what everyone else thinks.

Like, as a Necron player, why can Gauss strip down a Land Raider with no trouble at all, but cannot hurt a Wraithknight. Like, really? Or how Krak missiles can't explode vehicles. Or how a Rupture Cannon is meant to punch open Monoliths and Land Raiders, yet can't explode them, and Space Marines get their armor saves against it.

What about you guys? What inconsistent, incorrect, or just downright wrong rules have you guys noticed within this game? I'm allowing ranting here, mainly since I'll probably partake.

40k:
8th Edtion: 9405 pts - Varantekh Dynasty  
   
Made in gb
Stitch Counter





The North

Models getting a cover save because they are shrouded / it's night fighting..... from an apocalyptic mega blast fired by a titan.

For when the explosion can't see you in the shadows...

Thousand Sons: 3850pts / Space Marines Deathwatch 5000pts / Dark Eldar Webway Corsairs 2000pts / Scrapheap Challenged Orks 1500pts / Black Death 1500pts

Saga: (Vikings, Normans, Anglo Danes, Irish, Scots, Late Romans, Huns and Anglo Saxons), Lion Rampant, Ronin: (Bushi x2, Sohei), Frostgrave: (Enchanter, Thaumaturge, Illusionist)
 
   
Made in us
Loyal Necron Lychguard





Virginia

 Wulfmar wrote:
Models getting a cover save because they are shrouded / it's night fighting..... from an apocalyptic mega blast fired by a titan.

For when the explosion can't see you in the shadows...


Lol, on that note, I find it weird with the new Dark Eldar book, that they finally have a way to reroll Night Fighting and everything, yet because of Night Shields, they literally could care less about Night Fighting half of the time.

40k:
8th Edtion: 9405 pts - Varantekh Dynasty  
   
Made in ca
Ancient Venerable Black Templar Dreadnought





Canada

Rather than quote specific items I propose a theory (would love to have it verified):

Fluff, description of rule / weapon / effect written by author "A".

Stats for rule / weapon / effect written by author "B".

Both operations are performed simultaneously and are not seen together until the initial draft is drawn, which is then rushed for printing.

Being inflammatory or a realist?

A revolution is an idea which has found its bayonets.
Napoleon Bonaparte 
   
Made in ie
Hurr! Ogryn Bone 'Ead!






Over Watch.
Orks playing guard to serve as my example:
The Guard have big scary weryvns and leman russ's ect... The guards mass fire power blasts and kills many of the Orks as they charge towards the guard lines. They finally reach the guard lines... finally time to kill some... What, I have better close combat and the guard are eating me, WFT?
The rule is completely unfair and takes the fun and the enjoyment out of "Smashing them close up". In my hobby group we have screwed the rule and as a guard player it makes blasting Orks (for example) before they reach the front lines an awarding and challenging task.

Check out my current short story project "When a World Dies" http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/617737.page#7253683
 
   
Made in us
Loyal Necron Lychguard





Virginia

 dakkajet wrote:
Over Watch.
Orks playing guard to serve as my example:
The Guard have big scary weryvns and leman russ's ect... The guards mass fire power blasts and kills many of the Orks as they charge towards the guard lines. They finally reach the guard lines... finally time to kill some... What, I have better close combat and the guard are eating me, WFT?
The rule is completely unfair and takes the fun and the enjoyment out of "Smashing them close up". In my hobby group we have screwed the rule and as a guard player it makes blasting Orks (for example) before they reach the front lines an awarding and challenging task.


I agree, the only issue is that Overwatch kind of just makes sense. Heck, Fantasy has overwatch as well. I think that, in order to fix it, they could make it so that Heavy Weapons in general can't be fired as part of overwatch, or anything over a certain S value, perhaps.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Talizvar wrote:
Rather than quote specific items I propose a theory (would love to have it verified):

Fluff, description of rule / weapon / effect written by author "A".

Stats for rule / weapon / effect written by author "B".

Both operations are performed simultaneously and are not seen together until the initial draft is drawn, which is then rushed for printing.

Being inflammatory or a realist?


I mean, that sounds about right, sadly.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/20 18:07:53


40k:
8th Edtion: 9405 pts - Varantekh Dynasty  
   
Made in gb
Is 'Eavy Metal Calling?





UK

 dakkajet wrote:
Over Watch.
Orks playing guard to serve as my example:
The Guard have big scary weryvns and leman russ's ect... The guards mass fire power blasts and kills many of the Orks as they charge towards the guard lines. They finally reach the guard lines... finally time to kill some... What, I have better close combat and the guard are eating me, WFT?
The rule is completely unfair and takes the fun and the enjoyment out of "Smashing them close up". In my hobby group we have screwed the rule and as a guard player it makes blasting Orks (for example) they reach the front lines an awarding and challenging task.



Really, Overwatch doesn't affect CC that much. Outside of flamers you're unlikely to get more than a couple of kills at most, and Flamers needed the utilirt boost and are hardly OP from the addition of Wall of Death. I think the game was much better when overwatch was introduced, especially alongside the 2d6 Charge distance, as it adds a lot more of a risk/reward element to assault.

 
   
Made in gb
Hurr! Ogryn Bone 'Ead!




United Kingdom

The whole point of CC is that to whack somebody in the face with a big stick, he's gonna try to take a potshot at you. The rule's there for a reason.

Namely that soldiers don't take fething selfies when being charged.
   
Made in us
Loyal Necron Lychguard





Virginia

 Dannyrulx wrote:
The whole point of CC is that to whack somebody in the face with a big stick, he's gonna try to take a potshot at you. The rule's there for a reason.

Namely that soldiers don't take fething selfies when being charged.


Posting to one's Twitter during a Ork charge is Heresy.

40k:
8th Edtion: 9405 pts - Varantekh Dynasty  
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





I really.... REALLLY liked the 2nd (or 1st) edition way of things that had weapons give armour modifiers. It really makes no sense that a rocket hits a space marine its obliterated, but a terminator it feels like a twig. Something like warhammer fantasy armour mods would be an amazing feature.
   
Made in us
Loyal Necron Lychguard





Virginia

fidel wrote:
I really.... REALLLY liked the 2nd (or 1st) edition way of things that had weapons give armour modifiers. It really makes no sense that a rocket hits a space marine its obliterated, but a terminator it feels like a twig. Something like warhammer fantasy armour mods would be an amazing feature.


Well heck yes, I've wanted that for some time. Just like I want shooting modifiers. Longstrike being able to hit someone 60" away on a 2+ with no saves of any kind allowed is BS IMO.

40k:
8th Edtion: 9405 pts - Varantekh Dynasty  
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






 dakkajet wrote:
Over Watch.
Orks playing guard to serve as my example:
The Guard have big scary weryvns and leman russ's ect... The guards mass fire power blasts and kills many of the Orks as they charge towards the guard lines. They finally reach the guard lines... finally time to kill some... What, I have better close combat and the guard are eating me, WFT?
The rule is completely unfair and takes the fun and the enjoyment out of "Smashing them close up". In my hobby group we have screwed the rule and as a guard player it makes blasting Orks (for example) before they reach the front lines an awarding and challenging task.


Good thing I remembered to buy a couple ten man squads of Gretchin to run in front of my boyz, granting a 4+ cover save and completely eating the over watch. Or a unit of killa kanz, or nob bikers with a Painboy. Or stick everyone in trukks with stikkbomb launchas. Or any of the massive numbers of things I have as an ork player to offset or remove overwatch while taking advantage of the advantages I get with my new codex as compensation (2D6 1 rerollable charge distance, possible HoW, Waaaagh run and assault, and grenades being nearly as effective when thrown into an enemy unit as the rest of my slugga attacks combined.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in us
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My secret fortress at the base of the volcano!

fidel wrote:
I really.... REALLLY liked the 2nd (or 1st) edition way of things that had weapons give armour modifiers. It really makes no sense that a rocket hits a space marine its obliterated, but a terminator it feels like a twig. Something like warhammer fantasy armour mods would be an amazing feature.


No, they would be a horrible feature. I started in 2nd Edition, and generally everybody got tabled by the end of the game, except for character models, because they had invulnerable saves. Everything else died, because nobody's armor was as good as it was supposed to be. 3+ Space Marines were 4+ most of the time (because every gun, including lasguns, had a -1 armor modifier). Heavy bolters tore through MEQ armies (how you guys like your 5+ save you spent so many points on?). Given the abundance of autocannons on the tabletop, MEQ armies would be paying for a 3+ save and getting a 6+ one, instead. IG and Orks wouldn't get a save at all, and most Eldar that weren't Aspect Warriors would be in the same boat. Unless they want to re-cost the units to the point where IG cost 1 point per model and SM cost 3 points per model, armor save modifiers would be the worst thing they could do to 40K. You think characters are too powerful now? Imagine if, reliably, they were always the only models you had left in your army come turn 4. "Herohammer 40K" doesn't begin to describe it.

Emperor's Eagles (undergoing Chapter reorganization)
Caledonian 95th (undergoing regimental reorganization)
Thousands Sons (undergoing Warband re--- wait, are any of my 40K armies playable?) 
   
Made in us
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But on topic, WHY IS A RIPTIDE A MONSTROUS FRIGGIN CREATURE.

Walker: a walking vehicle with a separate, human-sized pilot. Since the crew is susceptible to shaking, stunning etc, it uses the vehicle damage rules. However, they are designed to be weapons platforms and generally mount more potent weaponry while MC's make greater use of their natural weaponry.

Monstrous Creature: a large entity that is itself a conscious being and has no separate crew. E.G Carnifexes, C'tan, and Wraithlords who are souls of dead Eldar plugged into huge new bodies WHICH IS DIFFERENT than Eldar War Walkers who are piloted. Piloted=Walker. Huge unpiloted monster=MC.

Riptides have pilots. Therefore they should be WALKERS. Same with Dreadknights from the GK codex.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in gb
Hurr! Ogryn Bone 'Ead!




United Kingdom

the_scotsman wrote:
 dakkajet wrote:
Over Watch.
Orks playing guard to serve as my example:
The Guard have big scary weryvns and leman russ's ect... The guards mass fire power blasts and kills many of the Orks as they charge towards the guard lines. They finally reach the guard lines... finally time to kill some... What, I have better close combat and the guard are eating me, WFT?
The rule is completely unfair and takes the fun and the enjoyment out of "Smashing them close up". In my hobby group we have screwed the rule and as a guard player it makes blasting Orks (for example) before they reach the front lines an awarding and challenging task.


Good thing I remembered to buy a couple ten man squads of Gretchin to run in front of my boyz, granting a 4+ cover save and completely eating the over watch. Or a unit of killa kanz, or nob bikers with a Painboy. Or stick everyone in trukks with stikkbomb launchas. Or any of the massive numbers of things I have as an ork player to offset or remove overwatch while taking advantage of the advantages I get with my new codex as compensation (2D6 1 rerollable charge distance, possible HoW, Waaaagh run and assault, and grenades being nearly as effective when thrown into an enemy unit as the rest of my slugga attacks combined.



Agreed.

I had to plasma-hunt trukks with my ravenwing so that they couldn't get close to my ADL. Now that was a game.
   
Made in us
Esteemed Veteran Space Marine




My secret fortress at the base of the volcano!

the_scotsman wrote:
But on topic, WHY IS A RIPTIDE A MONSTROUS FRIGGIN CREATURE.

Walker: a walking vehicle with a separate, human-sized pilot. Since the crew is susceptible to shaking, stunning etc, it uses the vehicle damage rules. However, they are designed to be weapons platforms and generally mount more potent weaponry while MC's make greater use of their natural weaponry.

Monstrous Creature: a large entity that is itself a conscious being and has no separate crew. E.G Carnifexes, C'tan, and Wraithlords who are souls of dead Eldar plugged into huge new bodies WHICH IS DIFFERENT than Eldar War Walkers who are piloted. Piloted=Walker. Huge unpiloted monster=MC.

Riptides have pilots. Therefore they should be WALKERS. Same with Dreadknights from the GK codex.


Agreed. The only reason that model is OP is because it's a MC. If it were a Walker (and susceptible to crew shaken and crew stunned results) it would be so much less rage-inducing.

Emperor's Eagles (undergoing Chapter reorganization)
Caledonian 95th (undergoing regimental reorganization)
Thousands Sons (undergoing Warband re--- wait, are any of my 40K armies playable?) 
   
Made in us
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 Wulfmar wrote:
Models getting a cover save because they are shrouded / it's night fighting..... from an apocalyptic mega blast fired by a titan.

For when the explosion can't see you in the shadows...


Here is how you should think of this. Lets say a leman russ just fired at some marines in a forest. Leman russ gets a direct hit, 7 wounds are caused. Marines make 4 cover saves.
You then go, "Psh, because a tree can withstand the blast of this tank and save the marine?"
Wrong line of thinking.

Tank commander is told to aim at those trees, marines have been spotted in them. Tank commander fires at the trees, then sees some marines go flying in the explosion. Maybe he hit the right spot, maybe he didn't. The scatter dice just showed that his aim was true, his choice of where to shoot was obscured by the cover.

   
Made in be
Flashy Flashgitz




Antwerp

I agree with making the dreadknight, riptide and wraithknight walkers. I don't necessarily want them nerfed - I've never even faced a dreadknight or a wraithknight before so I got no clue if they're as bad as people make 'em out to be. It would just make more sense.

Krush, stomp, kill! 
   
Made in us
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On moon miranda.

The game is in an absurdly messy state right now. There's a ton of hamfisted mechanics that don't quite work right (e.g. vehicles in general, as noted, anti-tank weapons like Krak missiles can't explode vehicles because the HP mechanic doesn't work and they tried to fix that by borking the vehicle damage table instead, and as a result of the bad vehicle mechanics we're seeing lots of things made MC's when they should be vehicles) and a ton that really have no place. We've got strategic missile launchers on the same gameboards where personal challenges between individuals are fought out amongst massive tank armies and gigantic walkers and individual model placement amongst infantry grunts actually matters, while air superiority aircraft fly over all that and are no better at engaging enemy flyers than dedicated ground attack aircraft. The game is trying to encompass detail you'd find in a squad based skirmish game into a game played with a company's worth of models and battalion or even strategic level units and weapons stuffed on top of that, and not doing any of it very well.

The system really needs a total reboot at this point. There's so much bloat, so many tables that force rolling just for its own sake, and so many things that just don't function intuitively that it's difficult to see this ruleset being successful for another iteration.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/10/20 19:02:58


IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.

New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights!
The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.  
   
Made in ie
Hurr! Ogryn Bone 'Ead!






 Paradigm wrote:
 dakkajet wrote:
Over Watch.
Orks playing guard to serve as my example:
The Guard have big scary weryvns and leman russ's ect... The guards mass fire power blasts and kills many of the Orks as they charge towards the guard lines. They finally reach the guard lines... finally time to kill some... What, I have better close combat and the guard are eating me, WFT?
The rule is completely unfair and takes the fun and the enjoyment out of "Smashing them close up". In my hobby group we have screwed the rule and as a guard player it makes blasting Orks (for example) they reach the front lines an awarding and challenging task.



Really, Overwatch doesn't affect CC that much. Outside of flamers you're unlikely to get more than a couple of kills at most, and Flamers needed the utilirt boost and are hardly OP from the addition of Wall of Death. I think the game was much better when overwatch was introduced, especially alongside the 2d6 Charge distance, as it adds a lot more of a risk/reward element to assault.

Overwatch kills the game. I can kill more Orks than Orks (who depending on the style of the army are meant to make mince meat of guard) I'm over using that example, can kill gaurd because of OVERWATCH!
When my self and my friend were playing our first game together with his 5th ed. rules. I was playing space marines and he was playing Orks. I slaughtered him in the stage where Orks should flourish. He almost quite 40k afterwords. We agreed to scrap overwatch and it works.

Check out my current short story project "When a World Dies" http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/617737.page#7253683
 
   
Made in us
Imperial Guard Landspeeder Pilot




On moon miranda.

How? Overwatch is typically one of the least effective mechanics in the game unless you've got flamers.

Even a 30man IG blob firing Overwatch (assuming no flamers but a few heavy weapons like autocannons) will kill 3-5 Orks on average from Overwatch, a 10man squad probably only 1.

IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.

New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights!
The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.  
   
Made in gb
Road-Raging Blood Angel Biker






Surrey, UK

 krodarklorr wrote:
fidel wrote:
I really.... REALLLY liked the 2nd (or 1st) edition way of things that had weapons give armour modifiers. It really makes no sense that a rocket hits a space marine its obliterated, but a terminator it feels like a twig. Something like warhammer fantasy armour mods would be an amazing feature.


Well heck yes, I've wanted that for some time. Just like I want shooting modifiers. Longstrike being able to hit someone 60" away on a 2+ with no saves of any kind allowed is BS IMO.


Have you read Longstrike's fluff? He's a beast of a marksman with a custom suit to let him link with his tank's systems even better. I think him doing that is justified
   
Made in us
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Virginia

 Mumblez wrote:
I agree with making the dreadknight, riptide and wraithknight walkers. I don't necessarily want them nerfed - I've never even faced a dreadknight or a wraithknight before so I got no clue if they're as bad as people make 'em out to be. It would just make more sense.


Be glad. Be very glad.

40k:
8th Edtion: 9405 pts - Varantekh Dynasty  
   
Made in gb
Road-Raging Blood Angel Biker






Surrey, UK

Also overwatch is one of the rules that make more sense during a 40k game. I mean, if something charged at you, you'd try and wildly shoot it before it got there and you might get a lucky hit.

what does seem a bit silly about it though is that vastly different armies all have the same overwatching skill. It's one of those things where fluff and rule balance just can't occur and will seem stupid however it's set out
   
Made in us
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Virginia

13045273 wrote:
 krodarklorr wrote:
fidel wrote:
I really.... REALLLY liked the 2nd (or 1st) edition way of things that had weapons give armour modifiers. It really makes no sense that a rocket hits a space marine its obliterated, but a terminator it feels like a twig. Something like warhammer fantasy armour mods would be an amazing feature.


Well heck yes, I've wanted that for some time. Just like I want shooting modifiers. Longstrike being able to hit someone 60" away on a 2+ with no saves of any kind allowed is BS IMO.


Have you read Longstrike's fluff? He's a beast of a marksman with a custom suit to let him link with his tank's systems even better. I think him doing that is justified


Maybe, maybe not. He's only one argument. The reason shooting is so powerful in 40k and not in Fantasy is because you have a gak ton of good BS that doesn't take modifiers, and a good portion. Nay, large portion, of the game has Twin-linked, so rerolls out the ass. So, missing with shooting is very rare, as I've seen it.

Just like, if something is BS10. Whats the point in rolling? You're almost guaranteed to hit. Whereas, in Fantasy, you are not guaranteed to hit. Which, it also kind of comes down to cover in 40k. I'm shooting my rifles at some marines out in the open. Alright, now I'm shooting my rifles at marines in a Ruin. What's changed? Nothing. Absolutely nothing as far as game mechanics. Makes no sense to me.

40k:
8th Edtion: 9405 pts - Varantekh Dynasty  
   
Made in gb
Ultramarine Land Raider Pilot on Cruise Control





Silver Spring, MD

squidhills wrote:
fidel wrote:
I really.... REALLLY liked the 2nd (or 1st) edition way of things that had weapons give armour modifiers. It really makes no sense that a rocket hits a space marine its obliterated, but a terminator it feels like a twig. Something like warhammer fantasy armour mods would be an amazing feature.


No, they would be a horrible feature. I started in 2nd Edition, and generally everybody got tabled by the end of the game, except for character models, because they had invulnerable saves. Everything else died, because nobody's armor was as good as it was supposed to be. 3+ Space Marines were 4+ most of the time (because every gun, including lasguns, had a -1 armor modifier). Heavy bolters tore through MEQ armies (how you guys like your 5+ save you spent so many points on?). Given the abundance of autocannons on the tabletop, MEQ armies would be paying for a 3+ save and getting a 6+ one, instead. IG and Orks wouldn't get a save at all, and most Eldar that weren't Aspect Warriors would be in the same boat. Unless they want to re-cost the units to the point where IG cost 1 point per model and SM cost 3 points per model, armor save modifiers would be the worst thing they could do to 40K. You think characters are too powerful now? Imagine if, reliably, they were always the only models you had left in your army come turn 4. "Herohammer 40K" doesn't begin to describe it.

I played 2nd edition too, and I agree. The solution is, don't make it exactly like 2nd. Adjust hit modifiers, saves, and save modifiers as needed to get the right "feel". The AP system is certainly simple, but it causes a lot of weird balance issues.

Further, include a proper suppression mechanic of some kind so it's possible to reduce the effectiveness of enemy shooting without literally having to kill every single model first. This is at least somewhat a sci-fi game, not a pure fantasy game, so as long as there are going to be so many powerful guns around, you need a way to suppress them. There are several important states between "standing stock upright" and "running away" that 40k doesn't begin to include, because in the end it's a bunch of extra rules bolted onto Warhammer Fantasy.

Battlefleet Gothic ships and markers at my store, GrimDarkBits:
 
   
Made in de
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My aren't you guys grumpy...

You do realize that in games it is always a trade off between complexity and playability? Not everyone wants rules that depict that an Orc could trip over his bootlaces when charging.

I really don't have any problem with Shroud giving a cover even in Apocalyptic Mega Blasts. From a game mechanic point of view it either has ignore cover or not. And those templates with IC would just be too strong. As I said, it is always a trade off.

But on the other hand we're on the internet and people just want to criticize and complain.

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Eldar
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Chaos Space Marines
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Death Guard
 
   
Made in us
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 Mumblez wrote:
I agree with making the dreadknight, riptide and wraithknight walkers. I don't necessarily want them nerfed - I've never even faced a dreadknight or a wraithknight before so I got no clue if they're as bad as people make 'em out to be. It would just make more sense.


WK should be a MC. The Wraithlord is an MC, the Wraithlnight should also be. The Dreadknight *almost* toes the line where it could be an MC, but the Deff Dread and Dreadnoughts being Walkers means that the Dreadknight and definitely riptide should be vehicles.

WK is irritating but lacks the sheer power in shooting and isn't as hard to tie up in melee as the " LOL Ima stand on this corner of the table and kite away in the shooting phase while I shoot you from my 48" range " riptide.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in gb
Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot





UK

A meltagun easily kills a Land Raider in a single shot, but on average it takes something stupid like 16 meltagun shots if you do the maths to on average kill a Riptide, and they will never ever die to anything less than 5 meltagun shots.

Garviel Loken has a chainsword that ignores terminator armour. Konrad Kurze can fly without wings or a jump pack. In a game where you spam Marine bodies, its not uncommon to lose anything up to half a Company of Marines.

Tempestus Scions are indoctrinated-from-birth elites, yet are LD7. Lowly platoon commanders can make their Guardsmen fire more bursts, but Space Marine Captains are good for nothing but eating powerfists and dying, being unable to kill basically any enemy Hero designed to kill melee commanders. Oh, and that, 3/4 of the Chapter Masters in the galaxy have gained the ability to eat multiple thunderhammer/powerfist/superweapon blows because they took a Storm Shield and called it a Relic.

Inquisitors are extremely powerful and influential, yet can't get invulnerable saves without having Terminator armour. Their henchmen don't have access to half the Imperium's collection of firearms, including the single most produced gun in the galaxy.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/10/20 19:43:59


 
   
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Virginia

the_scotsman wrote:
 Mumblez wrote:
I agree with making the dreadknight, riptide and wraithknight walkers. I don't necessarily want them nerfed - I've never even faced a dreadknight or a wraithknight before so I got no clue if they're as bad as people make 'em out to be. It would just make more sense.


WK should be a MC. The Wraithlord is an MC, the Wraithlnight should also be. The Dreadknight *almost* toes the line where it could be an MC, but the Deff Dread and Dreadnoughts being Walkers means that the Dreadknight and definitely riptide should be vehicles.

WK is irritating but lacks the sheer power in shooting and isn't as hard to tie up in melee as the " LOL Ima stand on this corner of the table and kite away in the shooting phase while I shoot you from my 48" range " riptide.


I've heard the arguments that the WK should stay a MC, which is fine and dandy. But, I still think it's dumb that my Gauss can't touch it, simply because it's not a vehicle. Even though it's pretty much made out of a vehicle-like material.

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