Switch Theme:

People Complain About the Costs of GW but....  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in us
Leaping Khawarij






People complain constantly about the costs of GW and how they are so expensive but has anyone looked at how expensive X-Wing is? I was looking around at the hobby shop just checking out the things that people say are so much better than GW and I couldn't believe how expensive X-Wing is. Now I understand for the most part, it is just models and you don't have to buy Codices but dang man, the cost of them equals the models plus the codex to go along. I mean I also feel the same about Privateer Press, that people complain about GW prices but from where I stand, neither company offers a "cheaper" hobby. The only argument from that side that someone can argue is that you need less models than GW but isn't that the point of WH40k, to play anything from small skirmishes to giant battles. The other area is maybe customer service and player support but I haven't had a problem really. Things like this make it hard for me to understand why people rail against GW pricing. Maybe I am not seeing the big picture and someone can help illuminate me (In a respectful manner. I understand this is a touchy subject but could we please have civil discourse over the internet and not a flame war?)

 
   
Made in nz
Heroic Senior Officer




New Zealand

All the games I play have very cheap models in comparison.

I find X-Wing, privateer press etc all to be rip offs as well.

Historical games I find aren't nearly as much of a rip off. I somewhat found Firestorm Armada cheap to start but still somewhat expensive to grow.

I think what people mean when they say cheap though, is that its cheaper to START than GW games. Which is true for almost all the other games out there. All are cheap to start, which is a huge selling point. However some games are cheap the whole way and others are expensive to expands.

So yea I too find the games you listed expensive. But at the same time, how much cheaper are they to START compared to 40k if you got everything you needed not including terrain.

In NZ though the prices are among (if not the) highest GW charges in the world. So for me all these games are far cheaper a lot of the time simply because of how much GW charges. But in terms of US prices I think the above.



This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/21 01:47:30


 
   
Made in us
Zealous Sin-Eater



Chico, CA

Epic fail in understanding the problem.

Cost per model in not the issue with high prices. But, as there are so many thread were this has already been pointed out, I think some people don't really want to understand.

Peter: As we all know, Christmas is that mystical time of year when the ghost of Jesus rises from the grave to feast on the flesh of the living! So we all sing Christmas Carols to lull him back to sleep.
Bob: Outrageous, How dare he say such blasphemy. I've got to do something.
Man #1: Bob, there's nothing you can do.
Bob: Well, I guess I'll just have to develop a sense of humor.  
   
Made in us
Leaping Khawarij






Noir wrote:
Epic fail in understanding the problem.

Cost per model in not the issue with high prices. But, as there are so many thread were this has already been pointed out, I think some people don't really want to understand.


As I said, illuminate me please.

 
   
Made in us
Imperial Guard Landspeeder Pilot




On moon miranda.

As noted, while other games may have higher prices per model, they require *far* fewer models, and thus overall the cost of the game is far less. For what another 2000pt 40k army would cost me, I was able to buy the books for, and standard size play armies/fleets for, Firestorm Armada, Infinity, and Heavy Gear. The other issue is that for most of these other games, you're buying metal or resin mini's (and in X-Wing's case, pre-painted), which has a much higher perceived value than the plastic-on-sprue GW appears to be switching entirely to.

40k is also terrible as a skirmish game, nobody routinely plays it at that level and those that do use special non-standard rules to do so, and there's no events that support that level, it very definitely is not a skirmish game.

IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.

New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights!
The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.  
   
Made in au
Grizzled Space Wolves Great Wolf





The problem with 40k is it uses squad-game pricing for a game that is close to a company level game.

If you actually want to play company level games, you have things like this...

https://www.perry-miniatures.com/product_info.php?products_id=2924&osCsid=fmned70s3a36v8vsosttakpso0

http://www.wargamesfactory.com/webstore/myths-and-legends/wgf-ml002

http://www.wargamesfactory.com/webstore/world-war-2

Where you're looking at less than $1 per model.

GW models are priced as if you only need 15-30 of them, but you actually need 50+.
   
Made in us
Did Fulgrim Just Behead Ferrus?





Fort Worth, TX

 Envihon wrote:
... but isn't that the point of WH40k, to play anything from small skirmishes to giant battles.


Except 40K, ultimately, does either of those very poorly compared to other game systems that are dedicated to one or the other.

"Through the darkness of future past, the magician longs to see.
One chants out between two worlds: Fire, walk with me."
- Twin Peaks
"You listen to me. While I will admit to a certain cynicism, the fact is that I am a naysayer and hatchetman in the fight against violence. I pride myself in taking a punch and I'll gladly take another because I choose to live my life in the company of Gandhi and King. My concerns are global. I reject absolutely revenge, aggression, and retaliation. The foundation of such a method... is love. I love you Sheriff Truman." - Twin Peaks 
   
Made in us
Wraith






Yes, paying $8.50 per metal dude in Privateer Press games isn't that much fun either, let me tell you what. But, Privateer Press knows this. They realize having a high buy-in on certain units will turn away all but the stalwart fans. Thus they are slowly revamping expensive models into plastic kits and knocking 25% off the price in the process (Bane Knights next, please?).

The singular minis are staying metal, as they should. Because metal makes some damn fine display minis and can achieve great detail that can't be done as easily or efficiently in plastic. I have switched factions to forgo a $400 purchase to get my Cryx to two playable 50pt lists... which instead got me that in Legion with some smart purchases. So I'm tournament ready for $400. This is nigh impossible in current 40k.

I can't speak to X-Wing, but if you only need 8~10 models at $15~25 a piece depending on game scale and size of the model, then that's pretty accurate. And they are painted, which no matter how poor, is a plus for some people.

Shine on, Kaldor Dayglow!
Not Ken Lobb

 
   
Made in us
Stoic Grail Knight





Raleigh, NC

It's not even like 40k was always this bloated-skirmish size game. People like to say "I play 40k because it's more the game feels bigger" to justify its purchase compared to other games (like X-Wing and WMH) that have pricey models but smaller model counts for games. The thing is, 4th and 5th editions got along fine with that whole "bigger game" thing without the model count going through the roof, and 6th and 7th just dumped the whole concept of game scale and threw in everything and the kitchen sink. Each new edition compressed army points more, so that that $30 box of Dark Eldar wyches is worth less and less in the game experience.

You basically have to look at any expensive kit and say "okay, I need 2-3 of those, so let me triple the price for this small portion of the army." Don't get me wrong, I like the models...I'd just rather them be something more than placeholders considering how expensive they are.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/10/21 02:27:08


 
   
Made in us
Leaping Khawarij






Hmmm...some good food for thought and valid points. So anything that keeps people around? I know the amount of people is more spread out now as people find these other ones but I do know a lot of people that for example play 40k but they also play X-Wing. I will have to say that X-Wing seems like an awesome buy and play right away kind of game. I have also talked to people who have played WarmaHordes but came back because they didn't like it. Could what we be seeing just a spreading out of the hobby instead of GW just dominating like it did in the past?

 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Vallejo, CA

Vaktathi wrote:As noted, while other games may have higher prices per model, they require *far* fewer models, and thus overall the cost of the game is far less. For what another 2000pt 40k army would cost me...

This is a common mistake that people make with 40k. They assume that you have to play the game with 500 minis at huge points levels. Of course if you're playing high-points games, it's going to cost more. Comparing an apocalypse game of 40k to a skirmish game of warmahordes doesn't produce any useful information.

You can play 40k with as few as 3 models, and when you compare, say, the 40k starter kit and the warmahordes starter kit, you find out that both games, with the same number of minis, wind up costing the same.

40k is only expensive if you make it expensive.

Meanwhile, as mentioned, there are two groups of non-GW mini wargame companies: those who fail in time, and those who copy GW's practices, including high prices.



Your one-stop website for batreps, articles, and assorted goodies about the men of Folera: Foleran First Imperial Archives. Read Dakka's favorite narrative battle report series The Hand of the King. Also, check out my commission work, and my terrain.

Abstract Principles of 40k: Why game imbalance and list tailoring is good, and why tournaments are an absurd farce.

Read "The Geomides Affair", now on sale! No bolter porn. Not another inquisitor story. A book written by a dakkanought for dakkanoughts!
 
   
Made in us
Abel





Washington State

Wait, X-Wing is just as expensive as 40K? What crack are you smoking, 'cuz I want some.

You obviously have never played the game, or even asked any questions about it. So, here we go.

X-wing: $15/model for everything EXCEPT the big ships like the Millennium Falcon, Slave-I, YT-2400, and Imperial Shuttle. If you want to get the Rebel Transport or Tantive IV, you can, but they can't be used in regular games of X-wing (It's like playing a 1500 point game where one side has nothing but Titans, and you have nothing but Space Marine Tactical Squads.

A game of X-wing is 100 points. The cheapest ship in the game is 12 points (a Z-95 Headhunter or Imperial Tie Fighter). Most ships are in the 20's range, but some ships like the Han Solo Millennium Falcon is 46 points. You are going to want to add extras, like Proton Torpedoes, or extra agility, or a host of other options. 95% of the time, you will be playing 4 (Rebel) vs. 5-6 (Imperial) game. So if you wanted to play just Rebels, that's $45 + $40 for the Starter Box (which includes 1 X-wing, 2 Tie Fighters, dice, templates, and rules- it's a bargain). If you wanted to play Imperials, that's 6 Tie Fighters, but you get 2 in the starter set, so $60 + $40. If you wanted to play both, that's $105 + $40 for just about infinite replay ability. Those are all at MSRP as well- but I've found X-Wing for as low as $9/ship.

FFG works INCREDIBLY HARD to balance the game, and it is VERY balanced. There are some gimmicky lists, and there are a lot of Rock/Paper/Scissors out there.

I own one of every ship, plus a couple extras, and it cost about as much as my 7th ed 2500 pt. Space Wolf army. Oh, and it all fits in a large bits organizer box, pre-painted, and no assembly beyond punching some counters out of card stock, and attaching pegs to ships/bases. A 100 point game will take about an hour. When I show up at the FLGS with X-wing, I could be playing in less then 15 minutes. 5 minutes if I have a ship list already. How long does it take with 40K? If you have a list already, you have to set up the table, select a mission, then unpack all the mini's, then play for the next 2-3 hours. Then, it's about a 30 minute clean up. Guess what? A FULL TOURNAMENT of X-wing takes as long as ONE GAME of 40K.

People get a different "kick" out of different games, it's no big deal. The value of any game is a unique and subjective idea. You should try it before you knock it. You should also do a little more research into a game before coming here and talking about costs vs. other games. 40K is the high end luxury miniatures market. You can't get any more expensive then 40K.

Kara Sloan shoots through Time and Design Space for a Negative Play Experience  
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Vallejo, CA

Tamwulf wrote: So if you wanted to play just Rebels, that's $45 + $40 for the Starter Box (which includes 1 X-wing, 2 Tie Fighters, dice, templates, and rules- it's a bargain). If you wanted to play Imperials, that's 6 Tie Fighters, but you get 2 in the starter set, so $60 + $40. If you wanted to play both, that's $105 + $40

Dark Vengeance costs $130. And you get WAY more models with it.

I think the crack he's smoking is called reality.


This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/21 02:57:39


Your one-stop website for batreps, articles, and assorted goodies about the men of Folera: Foleran First Imperial Archives. Read Dakka's favorite narrative battle report series The Hand of the King. Also, check out my commission work, and my terrain.

Abstract Principles of 40k: Why game imbalance and list tailoring is good, and why tournaments are an absurd farce.

Read "The Geomides Affair", now on sale! No bolter porn. Not another inquisitor story. A book written by a dakkanought for dakkanoughts!
 
   
Made in us
Wraith






Warhammer 40k does not "work" at the sub-1000 point levels and there's a reason why the game is played in the 1500-2000pt range competitively. Otherwise, the points efficiency skew shifts much harder and faster making the game more of a mess.

Every other game has this idea; you can start at a lower points level but the real game is at "X" points. Trying to compare sub 1000 point 40k to 50pt Warmahordes, 50 points Malifaux, 300 points Infinity and whatever the similar for Bolt Action, X-Wing, etc. is not the appropriate relationship. If anything, you need to then compare 1000pt 40k, or less, with 25 points Warmahordes, 25 points Malifaux, 150 points Infinity... and most of those are $50~$75 worth of models (battle box + unit/solo/thing, ish).

No matter how you slice it, GW models are insane at the $/cost for mass produced plastics compared to similar (Wyrd is silly, too, but at least it's $12 for a clampack mini and not $30!!!), but the amount of models you need is asinine.

Shine on, Kaldor Dayglow!
Not Ken Lobb

 
   
Made in nz
Heroic Senior Officer




New Zealand

I think the price of the Rule Books also jump up the 40k Price hugely.

I love 40k at 500-1000 points. Its the only size I play when I can. But even then to get the books is a huge cost if you arent in a club.

To play small games of 40k is fine and not too bad in cost depending on the army, but if you add in books then gonna bump up the price a huge amount.

When books are to the point with good rules and at a fair price, I find myself buying way more books than I need and they are still cheaper than GW books.
   
Made in jp
Fixture of Dakka





Japan

 Ailaros wrote:


40k is only expensive if you make it expensive.



That is also true for every other miniature game, i can play warmachine with one warcaster and one warjack except i have never seen people play such small scale games.
You play the game as it is meant to be. so if you want to play competitive 40k is more expensive than privateer and x-wing

Squidbot;
"That sound? That's the sound of me drinking all my paint and stabbing myself in the eyes with my brushes. "
My Doombringer Space Marine Army
Hello Kitty Space Marines project
Buddhist Space marine Project
Other Projects
Imageshack deleted all my Images Thank you! 
   
Made in ca
Angry Blood Angel Assault marine





 Envihon wrote:
Noir wrote:
Epic fail in understanding the problem.

Cost per model in not the issue with high prices. But, as there are so many thread were this has already been pointed out, I think some people don't really want to understand.


As I said, illuminate me please.


Pretend you don't have any models for both 40K and X-wing and you are starting fresh. Now compare how much it costs to start building up a standard army list and factor in everything you will need to play the game.

With 40K you will need the following

Rulebook
Codex
Your typical 1500 pt army, just use Space Marine as example
Terran (lets also stick with GW products to keep things constant)
Paint and hobby supplies such as glue, cutters etc.

Now with X-wing, all you need is the starter set and models of your choice, a gaming mat and some 3D astriods. The overal cost are much lower than what you will need for a typical 40K game.

   
Made in us
Leaping Khawarij






wufai wrote:
 Envihon wrote:
Noir wrote:
Epic fail in understanding the problem.

Cost per model in not the issue with high prices. But, as there are so many thread were this has already been pointed out, I think some people don't really want to understand.


As I said, illuminate me please.


Pretend you don't have any models for both 40K and X-wing and you are starting fresh. Now compare how much it costs to start building up a standard army list and factor in everything you will need to play the game.

With 40K you will need the following

Rulebook
Codex
Your typical 1500 pt army, just use Space Marine as example
Terran (lets also stick with GW products to keep things constant)
Paint and hobby supplies such as glue, cutters etc.

Now with X-wing, all you need is the starter set and models of your choice, a gaming mat and some 3D astriods. The overal cost are much lower than what you will need for a typical 40K game.



This is why in one of my responses I said that X-wing is definitely buy and play right out of the box while 40k has the hobby end of it besides just the game aspect cost of it. I do like the hobby aspect of 40k, it makes me care more about the models I put on the table and helps to make it a bit more personal than having the automatically painted models of X-wing but at the same time, I understand the appeal to those who just want to play a mini-wargaming type of game without having to assemble and paint your models first before you can put them on the table.

I never knocked X-wing as a game which is why I tried not to get into anything besides the cost. I was simply pointing out that none of these games are cheap by any means and I can't see that as an argument for really selling the other games. People have pointed out in which ways the games differ in other things than cost but that comes down to preference about what kind of war gaming experience you would like. War gaming in general is just expensive, I think we all knew that when we got into this hobby. I will concede to the fact though, that the cost of rulebooks is what I think drives up the real cost of GW with the amount they have split codices and all the supplements and all that which makes it more expensive especially if you have a certain playstyle. That being said, I feel like GW offers more weight in their printed material and have the better fleshed out universe when it comes to just their game. X-wing does have Star Wars to pull from but relies on the fact that you are already familiar with the source material while each Codex from GW has a different aspect of their world building in it.

And if FFG did a great job in balancing the rule set for X-Wing, then I definitely want to see what they did with Warhammer 40k: Conquest and how good of a job they translated tabletop miniatures into cards.

 
   
Made in au
Towering Hierophant Bio-Titan





 Envihon wrote:
Noir wrote:
Epic fail in understanding the problem.

Cost per model in not the issue with high prices. But, as there are so many thread were this has already been pointed out, I think some people don't really want to understand.


As I said, illuminate me please.


I don't know what he was getting at, but I'd say the real issue isn't the cost but the quality of purchase. If everything was balanced and treated for properly the cost would be much more acceptable. However, look at the recent DE. Instead of applying a balancing go touch to it'd icing useless units, nerfing OP ones, and leaving playable models as is, my army of Baron, duke, Khymerae, and Wyches in Venoms is basically completely unplayable and wasted money, not least of which the HQs that I bought GW models to convert as they recommended, just to have them completely removed from the game. The balance changes are done so that I have to rebut a bunch of new models from their ranges. This is the real issue with GWs prices.

P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it. 
   
Made in au
[MOD]
Making Stuff






Under the couch

 Ailaros wrote:
..., and when you compare, say, the 40k starter kit and the warmahordes starter kit, you find out that both games, with the same number of minis, wind up costing the same.

If you ignore the fact that the 40K starter set doesn't actually give you everything you need to play, sure.

 
   
Made in us
Stoic Grail Knight





Raleigh, NC

I'm still curious how 40k is playable with 3 models.
   
Made in nz
Heroic Senior Officer




New Zealand

 Accolade wrote:
I'm still curious how 40k is playable with 3 models.


Just get 3 models and play them against each other.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Vallejo, CA

Jehan-reznor wrote:so if you want to play competitive 40k is more expensive than privateer and x-wing

That's your choice what points level you want to play it at. It still doesn't justify a false price comparison.

insaniak wrote:If you ignore the fact that the 40K starter set doesn't actually give you everything you need to play, sure.

And warmahordes does?

And you can play several games of 40k with what DV gives.

Accolade wrote:I'm still curious how 40k is playable with 3 models.

Draigo and two units of one paladin.

To say nothing of unbound.



Your one-stop website for batreps, articles, and assorted goodies about the men of Folera: Foleran First Imperial Archives. Read Dakka's favorite narrative battle report series The Hand of the King. Also, check out my commission work, and my terrain.

Abstract Principles of 40k: Why game imbalance and list tailoring is good, and why tournaments are an absurd farce.

Read "The Geomides Affair", now on sale! No bolter porn. Not another inquisitor story. A book written by a dakkanought for dakkanoughts!
 
   
Made in au
Towering Hierophant Bio-Titan





That's one army, to play 40k you need two. So seems like it's a minimum of 6 models, and you are playing dragon+2xpaladins vs draigo+2xpaladins. Enthralling. Priced well for the amount fun you can get out of it at this level? Face it, Warmachine is much more suited to battles of this scale or slightly higher. You need far more models to play 40k. Playable is a term expressing worthwhile gameplay. Big Rig racing is "playable" by your definition.

P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it. 
   
Made in au
[MOD]
Making Stuff






Under the couch

 Ailaros wrote:

insaniak wrote:If you ignore the fact that the 40K starter set doesn't actually give you everything you need to play, sure.

And warmahordes does?

Yes, it does.

 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Vallejo, CA

The warmahordes starter kit boasts:

-Complete Prime MKII rules in a travel-sized booklet (86 pages)
-introductory guide
-dice
-ruler
-17 plastic WARMACHINE models with corresponding stat cards.

Dark Vengeance comes with:

- 49 snap-fit plastic miniatures
- small-format paperback edition of Warhammer 40,000: The Rules,
- a complete assembly guide,
- a quick-play reference guide,
- dice,
- templates,
- a how-to-play booklet that includes six scenarios

Both claim to have everything you need to play a game, and they both do. Except DV comes with way more stuff.


Your one-stop website for batreps, articles, and assorted goodies about the men of Folera: Foleran First Imperial Archives. Read Dakka's favorite narrative battle report series The Hand of the King. Also, check out my commission work, and my terrain.

Abstract Principles of 40k: Why game imbalance and list tailoring is good, and why tournaments are an absurd farce.

Read "The Geomides Affair", now on sale! No bolter porn. Not another inquisitor story. A book written by a dakkanought for dakkanoughts!
 
   
Made in au
[MOD]
Making Stuff






Under the couch

Sure. Except the Warmachine box gives you everything you need to play Warmachine.

The 40k box gives you everything you need to play Dark Vengeance. If you want to branch out from there, you have to go out and buy at least one hideously expensive hardcover codex in order to use any other miniatures. With Warmachine, you can just add whatever miniatures you want to buy to your starter force... The individual army books are completely optional, rather than required to play the game.

 
   
Made in nz
Heroic Senior Officer




New Zealand

I think all the alternate games I played had starter sets and starter armies available except Games Workshop. Most of them have the bits for all armies too not just a starter set and nothing more.

Flames of war has the starter set and the company boxes.

Bolt action has a starter set and starter armies of various sizes for all nations

Firestorm Armada has patrol fleets and a starter set for all major factions and most minor

Planetfall is new but will have the same set up as Firestorm Armada

Plus all the games I have thought about getting into have the same set up.

Games Workshop has a starter set that appeals to a small part of the players, doesnt have a "standard army" and in many ways includes very little to expand upon. Its usually used for cheap quick add-on minis for the races involved more than a starter. Games Workshop does have battle forces (I think they do...) but they arent a complete army usually. Not without work anyway.

So the start up is not only more expensive with GW its also not as easy to start.

   
Made in ru
!!Goffik Rocker!!






 Vaktathi wrote:
As noted, while other games may have higher prices per model, they require *far* fewer models, and thus overall the cost of the game is far less.


Kill team?

I find Warhammer 40k to be relatively cheap compared to other hobbies around. It's quite time consuming though.

Mind you, we don't insist on having hardcover codexes in our flgs. A print is fine.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/10/21 05:12:47


 
   
Made in us
Auspicious Daemonic Herald





 Jehan-reznor wrote:
 Ailaros wrote:


40k is only expensive if you make it expensive.



That is also true for every other miniature game, i can play warmachine with one warcaster and one warjack except i have never seen people play such small scale games.
You play the game as it is meant to be. so if you want to play competitive 40k is more expensive than privateer and x-wing

You missed the point. 40k has a ton of room for conversions and scratch building which can make building 40k armies immensely cheaper. Warmahordes and X-wings have pretty much 0 room to do so.
   
 
Forum Index » 40K General Discussion
Go to: