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Made in us
Tzeentch Aspiring Sorcerer Riding a Disc





Orem, Utah

I thought this should be spread around as news.

ICV2 top 5 Non-Collectible Miniatures Games

I also thought that the top 5 RPGs was interesting (Pathfinder remains ahead of D&D)

They've also got a very brief write up on the hobby's growth over the summer.

Any thoughts?

 
   
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Eaton Rapids, MI

Sounds about right. I still want to see what it would look like if they combined Warmachine and Hordes as it's really just one game.

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Those are the numbers for summer, right? DnD 5th's core books are out Fall-Winter, so it would be a better indicator if it will indeed overtake Pathfinder, in my opinion.


 
   
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 darefsky wrote:
Sounds about right. I still want to see what it would look like if they combined Warmachine and Hordes as it's really just one game.


I kind of agree with this.

It would be kind of like dividing up WH40K in to one game that is nothing but the various space marine chapters and another that was everything else; the only difference between the two PP games are a few mechanics that apply to each side, similar to the difference between special rules available to various armies in 40K.
   
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Quote from that write-up:

In non-collectible miniatures, Warhammer 40,000 was doing better in the wake of the release of Seventh Edition, while the Star Wars X-Wing SKUs returned to frequent stock-out status in the summer season, hampering its sales.


I always wish with these that they would do 6-10 as it's probably a lot more changeable. I'd be keen to see how Infinity is doing these days, and whether that's moving up the rankings.

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Saldiven wrote:
 darefsky wrote:
Sounds about right. I still want to see what it would look like if they combined Warmachine and Hordes as it's really just one game.


I kind of agree with this.

It would be kind of like dividing up WH40K in to one game that is nothing but the various space marine chapters and another that was everything else; the only difference between the two PP games are a few mechanics that apply to each side, similar to the difference between special rules available to various armies in 40K.


Indeed. You can use jacks in hordes and beasts in warmachine lists. They're designed to be played against each other - its not like Space Marines vs. Wood Elves.

No surprise Pathfinder beat D&D. I can't imagine they wont continue, given they pump out like 20 products a month - yeah, you're gonna make more total sales (even if its less of a specific item) when the competition has what... 2 books and 2 adventures total?
   
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Anyone else think PP would have a shot at the top spot if they combined Warmahordes like they should have? I find it amusing that a GW game is listed in "non-collectible" minis when they try so hard to call their models "collectibles".
   
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Toofast wrote:
Anyone else think PP would have a shot at the top spot if they combined Warmahordes like they should have? I find it amusing that a GW game is listed in "non-collectible" minis when they try so hard to call their models "collectibles".


As cool as that would be. The answer is no. I have a huge suspicion they would be number 2 (if combined) but nowhere near GW yet.

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I seem to have lost my post about it, but we have rough numbers for GW FFG's yearly sales. From the FFG convention/presentation and from the GW financials.
Basically, GW makes about $35M per year in the US - including paints, scenery, LOTR, 40k and fantasy. However we know that Fantasy makes less than X-Wing, because it isn't on the chart. Also we need to know how much GW hobby supplies make GW, and what proportion of stuff is independents vs GW sales.
FFG makes about $5M per year in the US from X-Wing.

I'll try to find the exact numbers later, but essentially: 40k on that chart is at around 15M, X-Wing at around 5M.

   
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Orem, Utah

There are a lot of things to consider when we're talking about comparing these numbers.

- I, like many of you, am irked that Hordes and Warmachine are separated in the ICV2 numbers. There's simply no reason for them not to be considered the same game.

- The numbers for D&D represent a post 5th edition release. Before 5th ed's release, D&D had actually dropped off of the top five entirely. "Summer" is a relative term.

If people keep liking 5th, it might grow its audience enough to pass up Pathfinder, but it didn't launch with that kind of audience.

-Fantasy Flight hit the top five in a number of categories. Their product line is quite diverse.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/23 14:52:55


 
   
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The reason Hordes is a separate game is to deny some of the original creators of Warmachine the royalties they'd receive if they had released everything under the Warmachine brand. They've been so successful in separating the brands that they get separated even here.

Balance in pick up games? Two people, each with their own goals for the game, design half a board game on their own without knowing the layout of the board and hope it all works out. Good luck with that. The faster you can find like minded individuals who want the same things from the game as you, the better. 
   
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I clicked through to the information about CCG's and was surprised to see a report of a trend toward adult players returning to Pokemon. I'm not a big CCG guy, but I figured that was mostly a kids game.
http://www.icv2.com/articles/news/29995.html

Toofast wrote:
Anyone else think PP would have a shot at the top spot if they combined Warmahordes like they should have? I find it amusing that a GW game is listed in "non-collectible" minis when they try so hard to call their models "collectibles".


"Collectible games" refers almost exclusively to blind-purchase items that require no assembly or painting and are collectible in the sense that a full "set" is issued periodically and can be acquired. These are games where collecting and trading is core to the experience.

GW minis are only "collectible" in the same way that model kits and anime figures are "collectible".

As for the WM/Hordes thing, I wonder about that. I don't know enough PP players to know if players of the two groups really want to play together, or if they enjoy the separate metas of these two pseudo-separate games. It kind of reminds me of the early days of 40k when it was fairly easy to cross units between Rogue Trader and WHFB.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/23 15:23:24


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 Eilif wrote:

As for the WM/Hordes thing, I wonder about that. I don't know enough PP players to know if players of the two groups really want to play together, or if they enjoy the separate metas of these two pseudo-separate games. It kind of reminds me of the early days of 40k when it was fairly easy to cross units between Rogue Trader and WHFB.


There are no separate metas, Warmachine and Hordes are basically just two sides of the same game that is why people say that they should be represented as a single game in these types of situations, the only reason why PP separates them is because the original creators of Warmachine still receive royalties for the sales of that game and not for the newer Hordes and because it keeps things simpler when it comes to managing new releases for each side.
   
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 frozenwastes wrote:
The reason Hordes is a separate game is to deny some of the original creators of Warmachine the royalties they'd receive if they had released everything under the Warmachine brand. They've been so successful in separating the brands that they get separated even here.


Interesting. I had no idea about this. Did Hordes come out after Snoody and McVey left the company? If they have some claim to the Warmachine royalties, this would certainly be a good reason to keep things separate.

There might not be completely "separate metas" but it seems that most folks I've seen at shops don't play the Hordes vs Warmachine. If the two were officially combined, it would change the overall meta, yes?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/23 15:36:12


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 Eilif wrote:

Interesting. I had no idea about this. Did Hordes come out after Snoody and McVey left the company? If they have some claim to the Warmachine royalties, this would certainly be a good reason to keep things separate.


Yes. The story goes that as part of the buyout agreement, they still receive royalties for Warmachine. Since Hordes was developed after they've left, PP decided to separate the product lines because of that.

 Eilif wrote:

There might not be completely "separate metas" but it seems that most folks I've seen at shops don't play the Hordes vs Warmachine. If the two were officially combined, it would change the overall meta, yes?


I have no idea how it is in your shop, but literally everywhere there is just a single game, all the official PP tournaments are mixed, all the conventions are mixed, the annual leagues are mixed, the slow growing leagues are mixed, even the special release tournaments that supposedly are dedicated to single expansion books, are mixed.

Literally the only reference anywhere in the "real world" that they are separate games is that PP requires their Press Gangers to have two starter boxes in a single system in order to apply to the program so that new people aren't even more confused during their demo games.
   
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PhantomViper wrote:
 Eilif wrote:

Interesting. I had no idea about this. Did Hordes come out after Snoody and McVey left the company? If they have some claim to the Warmachine royalties, this would certainly be a good reason to keep things separate.


Yes. The story goes that as part of the buyout agreement, they still receive royalties for Warmachine. Since Hordes was developed after they've left, PP decided to separate the product lines because of that.

 Eilif wrote:

There might not be completely "separate metas" but it seems that most folks I've seen at shops don't play the Hordes vs Warmachine. If the two were officially combined, it would change the overall meta, yes?


I have no idea how it is in your shop, but literally everywhere there is just a single game, all the official PP tournaments are mixed, all the conventions are mixed, the annual leagues are mixed, the slow growing leagues are mixed, even the special release tournaments that supposedly are dedicated to single expansion books, are mixed.

Literally the only reference anywhere in the "real world" that they are separate games is that PP requires their Press Gangers to have two starter boxes in a single system in order to apply to the program so that new people aren't even more confused during their demo games.


Thanks for clearing that up. I spend less and less time in my FLGS these days, so I'm sure you're right. I retract my assumptions about separateness of games and Meta.

If the two games are already treated as one by the community, is there any reason for PP's existing owner(s) to combine them and lose revenue?

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 Eilif wrote:


If the two games are already treated as one by the community, is there any reason for PP's existing owner(s) to combine them and lose revenue?


It would make these ICV2 reports a bit more interesting to read?

But no, the decision to join both games into one would be irrelevant both to the players and the game itself.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/23 16:13:28


 
   
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 Eilif wrote:

Interesting. I had no idea about this. Did Hordes come out after Snoody and McVey left the company? If they have some claim to the Warmachine royalties, this would certainly be a good reason to keep things separate.


McVey was still at Privateer Press when Hordes started (Ali painted up the first Dire Troll Mauler).


 Eilif wrote:

It kind of reminds me of the early days of 40k when it was fairly easy to cross units between Rogue Trader and WHFB.


Less separation than that. Really, think "none whatsoever." Basically, half of the factions are "Warmachine factions" and the other half are "Hordes Factions." The rules (and balance) are clearly written with crossover games in mind.

It is as if 40k had a separate 'game' for all of the imperial armies.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/23 18:47:49


 
   
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PhantomViper wrote:
But no, the decision to join both games into one would be irrelevant both to the players and the game itself.


Well, it would lead to fewer people buying the core rulebooks for both!
   
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I wonder, if FFG could finally get their supply stream under a more solid control, they could perhaps climb to the top in a few years.



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Personally, I wonder what the crossover is for the audiences. X-Wing and Attack Wing minis are pre painted.

That pushes some of us away ('us' being people who paint with all of their time).

 
   
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The only way Pathfinder is still ahead of DnD is if this is old data. New PHB and MM are blowing pathfinder sales out of the water at every retailer i've talked to.

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 mikhaila wrote:
The only way Pathfinder is still ahead of DnD is if this is old data. New PHB and MM are blowing pathfinder sales out of the water at every retailer i've talked to.


I don't know all of the details, but those numbers are pretty current, and definitely come after the 5th ed release.

I could see 5th ed having a poorer release day than 4th did. Among the local gamers, 5th ed is spreading kind of word of mouth (rather than everyone picking it up in the first week, like they did for previous editions). A lot of people around here have been liking it (and comparison to Pathfinder is inevitable) although it is currently at the stage where only DMs who want to run it have picked it up (not many of the players yet).

Seeing the local reaction here, I could see some places picking it up a lot faster than others. I think D&D might still overtake Pathfinder, but we don't have evidence that it has as of yet.


I've played D&D 5, and I don't have any problem with it, but I still love the Iron Kingdoms RPG more (which didn't make the list- not surprising because they have about one book release a year).

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/10/24 17:00:07


 
   
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 mikhaila wrote:
The only way Pathfinder is still ahead of DnD is if this is old data. New PHB and MM are blowing pathfinder sales out of the water at every retailer i've talked to.
Not locally.

Around here Pathfinder is still outselling 5e by a comfortable margin. Not as bad as a few years ago with 4e, but there are definitely more Pathfinder books being sold.

A surprising number are buying both the 5e and Pathfinder beginner boxes though.

The Auld Grump - mind you, it is not all that long ago that folks could not believe that Pathfinder was consistently outselling 4e.....

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The reason I bought rules and became a real wargamer was because I wanted a properly thought out structure to govern the action instead of just making things up as I went along.
 
   
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 odinsgrandson wrote:
Personally, I wonder what the crossover is for the audiences. X-Wing and Attack Wing minis are pre painted.

That pushes some of us away ('us' being people who paint with all of their time).


I can only speak for myself, obviously, but I play X Wing precisely because it is pre-painted. I self identify as a painter who plays to do something with the minis he paints, I also have a personal rule of not playing unpainted minis.

X Wing is a splendid second game for me, and I suspect the secret of it's success is that it is a LOT of people's second game, precisely because I can add to my collection and play it without having to sacrifice desk time spent focussing on other (40K and Darklands) projects.


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Having places but no numbers is a bit useless. Being #1 is great, but seeing how firmly that "#1" is being held speaks volumes. The Warmachine/Hordes divide has been discussed, but I find it funny that X-Wing and Attack Wing, while sort of in the same vein, are vastly different genres and it would be more informative to see other miniature games like Infinity, Malifaux, or even historical games being represented.

Most people I know that play X-Wing do it as a side game from their "main" game, whether it be Warhammer, Warmachine, or whatever else.
   
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 odinsgrandson wrote:

- I, like many of you, am irked that Hordes and Warmachine are separated in the ICV2 numbers. There's simply no reason for them not to be considered the same game.


Blame PP for that. They might be 100% compatible but they're sold/presented as two completely different games/series of SKUs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Moktor wrote:
Having places but no numbers is a bit useless. Being #1 is great, but seeing how firmly that "#1" is being held speaks volumes. The Warmachine/Hordes divide has been discussed, but I find it funny that X-Wing and Attack Wing, while sort of in the same vein, are vastly different genres and it would be more informative to see other miniature games like Infinity, Malifaux, or even historical games being represented.

Most people I know that play X-Wing do it as a side game from their "main" game, whether it be Warhammer, Warmachine, or whatever else.


Expanding it from 5 to 10 - as others have said many times - would make for much more interesting reading/discussion.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/30 18:14:29


   
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More data would be good but 1 to 5 or 1 to 10 is pretty meaningless without dollars spent per range. All in all it just adds to the position that ICV2 is pretty much just an opinion or marketing poll.

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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/30 20:38:19


 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 Scott-S6 wrote:
And yet another thread is hijacked for Unit to ask for the same advice, receive the same answers and make the same excuses.

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Send help!

 
   
 
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