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Made in de
Dakka Veteran




Eacute cole Militaire (Paris)

Hi,

Had a game yesterday against a Black Templar Army.
The paintjob was beautiful, Lots of conversions, like every Templar had chainmail on the Arms a Chacon tabbard, a sword on the back etc.
What was alittle disturbing was his Champion of the emperor, very Great conversion showing a marine executing a tallarn warrior with a standard in the back with the letters on it
" i See your yihad and rise you a crusade". His Friends was playing a dkok Army That had the colours and insignias of an ss squadron and skulls painted on their greatcoate revers.
How do you feel about such Models and would You Play against them?

Do not kill. Do not rape. Do not steal. These are principles which every man of every faith can embrace.
For if you do, one day you will look behind you and you will see us And on that day, you will reap it,
and we will send you to whatever god you wish.  
   
Made in us
Cosmic Joe





I'm not a big fan of political correctness at all.

That said, I would never have that conversion and would probably feel uncomfortable playing against it. But I have no inalienable right to go through life never being offended.



Also, check out my history blog: Minimum Wage Historian, a fun place to check out history that often falls between the couch cushions. 
   
Made in ca
Lit By the Flames of Prospero





Edmonton, Alberta

Maby the best way to put it is that well he had the right to do this, it doesn't mean it's ethical.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/10/24 16:52:16


 
   
Made in us
Cosmic Joe





 Lockark wrote:
Maby yhe best way to put it is that well he had the right to do this, it doesn't mean it ethical.

That's a good way to put it.



Also, check out my history blog: Minimum Wage Historian, a fun place to check out history that often falls between the couch cushions. 
   
Made in us
Brigadier General






Chicago

 winterwind85 wrote:
showing a marine executing a tallarn warrior with a standard in the back with the letters on it
" i See your yihad and rise you a crusade". His Friends was playing a dkok Army That had the colours and insignias of an ss squadron and skulls painted on their greatcoate revers.
How do you feel about such Models and would You Play against them?


In general, political correctness annoys me also, but these kind of donkey-caves show why we need it at least some of the time.

For SS, anything outside of historical wargaming of actual SS units, I find it a offensive to use nazi iconography. A model of a historical unit is an acknowledgment of military history. Putting the iconography on anything else is a tacit endorsement of that ideology. Would Nazi iconography be appropriate on Space Marines? No, then it's not appropriate for ww1 space germans either.

For the Crusader, this seems like someone who is being intentionally offensive. Considering how the Crusades functioned, it's the same as saying, "the answer to Jihadists is to kill as many muslims as possible". That's the kind of thing that Neo-Nazis and KKK members endorse.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lockark wrote:Maby yhe best way to put it is that well he had the right to do this, it doesn't mean it ethical.


Definitely agree. You can't ban this kind of thing, but you have every right to refuse to game with them, and the wider gaming community has every right -and possibly the responsibility- to disavow this kind of behavior and ostracize those that continue to practice it.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/10/23 15:14:01


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Made in us
Cog in the Machine



Pittsburgh, PA

Eh, I don't feel like either of the guys who made those armies were intentionally trying to be offensive. I feel like the Templar one was probably just a joke, nothing to be looked into in too much seriousness. The ss one is worse, but unless the guy goes around screaming nazi opinions, he probably just chose that paint scheme because krieg are based off the Germans, and the ss skull is super cool looking, too bad the nazis ruined it.
   
Made in pt
Tea-Kettle of Blood




 winterwind85 wrote:
His Friends was playing a dkok Army That had the colours and insignias of an ss squadron and skulls painted on their greatcoate revers.


You're German, isn't that kind of thing illegal over there?

I was under the impression that any depiction of Nazi iconography was outlawed in Germany...

Are you sure that those were supposed to represent an SS squadron and not WWI Stoßtruppen that also used the 'Death Head' insignia (the skulls that you mentioned)?
   
Made in us
Combat Jumping Akalis



Too close to Jersey.

I may play, but I would seriously consider the motivations of the player as suspect.

I imagine, to the misguided and hypersensitive, any WWII era German modeled units are an affront. It's this type of overreaction that's easy to dismiss, particularly for a historical. However, for the game in question, SS insignia is really stretching it.

Acknowledging history and venerating it are two different things. I'd be curious as to the modeler's intentions here.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Nottingham, UK

Most of the time something like that is just childish and should be regarded as such.

 
   
Made in dk
Stormin' Stompa





The best I can say is; "I wouldn't have done that particular conversion" or "I do not find that particular conversion cool".

But I would never even imply that a person shouldn't or couldn't or weren't "allowed" to do it.


-------------------------------------------------------
"He died because he had no honor. He had no honor and the Emperor was watching."

18.000 3.500 8.200 3.300 2.400 3.100 5.500 2.500 3.200 3.000


 
   
Made in de
Dakka Veteran




Eacute cole Militaire (Paris)

Im Not German i created this Account while i was in Germany and therefore used the flag also for Finding players,
Now im back in france, as Seen in my Profile:-).
Im Sure it was the ss

Do not kill. Do not rape. Do not steal. These are principles which every man of every faith can embrace.
For if you do, one day you will look behind you and you will see us And on that day, you will reap it,
and we will send you to whatever god you wish.  
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






Clockwork Iron wrote:
Eh, I don't feel like either of the guys who made those armies were intentionally trying to be offensive. I feel like the Templar one was probably just a joke, nothing to be looked into in too much seriousness. The ss one is worse, but unless the guy goes around screaming nazi opinions, he probably just chose that paint scheme because krieg are based off the Germans, and the ss skull is super cool looking, too bad the nazis ruined it.


The Templar one is a bad attempt at a joke... it isn't clever or funny and is in poor taste. I am going to assume if the person is young he is naive and if he is 'older' he is an donkey-cave or a bigot. Both would make me not want to socially interact with such a person further regardless if it is true. Sorry, Snap judgement are a thing and we do them every day.

I also agree with Eilif, Use of the Iconography anywhere outside of historical reference is endorsement of that ideology. Mordheim has hooded cultists, if I paint them white and put KKK iconography I can't simply say 'I am playing a bad guy! wooo! funny!'.

While people don't have the right to not 'be offended', most of us with basic social skills can judge what is in poor taste and would have general consensus that something isn't cool with it from an impartial view. Both of those would probably be seen as being in poor tastes and I personally wouldn't want to play with them or socialize with them because they reflect poorly on me via association. I might even consider taking an auto-loss in a tourney game to not have to deal with such an army or person... it would be an option should it become an issue or if the army was really bad.

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Automated Rubric Marine of Tzeentch





ft. Bragg

Virtually all of the German Iconography was stolen from historical reference and use. The "SS" was a dual Sig rune of Armanen origin. The "deathshead" is a widely recognized representation of Baal and appears on a large portion of Catholic relics and religious devices.

The fact that you automatically associate it with the German war machine is a form of confirmation bias. So who is really not PC in this situation? How about you paint your little plastic men the way you want and he paints his the way he wants. Yes the Germans were guilty of some of the worst war crimes in history but from a tactical aspect there was a lot to learn from the Germans.....we Americans also wiped two entire cities in Japan basically off the map, but I bet if you saw an Ork bommer with Fat man and Little Boy painted on the two of the bombs you would not even associate it or find it offensive.


This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/10/23 15:48:45


Let a billion souls burn in death than for one soul to bend knee to a false Emperor.....
"I am the punishment of God, had you not committed great sin, God would not have sent a punishment like me upon you" 
   
Made in us
Androgynous Daemon Prince of Slaanesh





Norwalk, Connecticut

I would like to see the model in question. If it's a fantastically painted/converted mini, I'd probably overlook the PC issue. If it looks like crap, and wasn't done with utmost care, I'd be more offended. All subjective, I guess. The SS design wouldn't even bother me, but I'm not the affected audience.

Reality is a nice place to visit, but I'd hate to live there.

Manchu wrote:I'm a Catholic. We eat our God.


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Made in us
Cog in the Machine



Pittsburgh, PA

I don't think I would have outright dismissed playing against either of these guys. As I said before the Templar one is just a dumb joke, so the guy probably didn't have malicious intent. If playing against the ss army, I probably would have asked the guy why he chose that scheme, perhaps he had some sort of reason, or perhaps he was being a bigoted gakker.
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Dankhold Troggoth






Shadeglass Maze

I think the issue with the OP is that it breaks the immersion for me, by putting real world / current event issues into miniatures that are supposed to be in an alternate universe.
   
Made in us
Fiery Bright Wizard






Idaho

While the execution one is a bit out there, it was probably a joke. And the Nazi one is probably because look at the Dkok, and tell me you don't see why he would paint them like that. this world is to easily offended now-a-days. yeah the nazis are bad, but it's better to make a farce about it and raise awareness in the process, than it is to pretend it never existed outside of museums and classrooms. To the tallarn one, it's just a "funny" conversion. I mean, after all, who has executed more? jihadists, or people who model plastic figures.

It's like the SJW has rubbed off onto everyone, we live in an era of free speech, yet people throw a fit when someone does something that offends them. like people think that the world owes them a trigger warning whenever something is done.

I'll never be able to repay CA for making GW realize that The Old World was a cash cow, left to die in a field.  
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins




WA, USA

Gonna echo the general sentiment that while it is unreasonable to outright ban the activity, everything should be done to discourage it.

Maybe I have worked with dumb teenagers who thought they were clever for too long, but any time I see something like this, I never see "oh I appreciate the history aspect of it". Puh-leeze. It's always "nur hur Nazis look how edgy I am." And screw that noise.

 Ouze wrote:

Afterward, Curran killed a guy in the parking lot with a trident.
 
   
Made in us
Brigadier General






Chicago

 quickfuze wrote:
Virtually all of the German Iconography was stolen from historical reference and use. The "SS" was a dual Sig rune of Armanen origin. The "deathshead" is a widely recognized representation of Baal and appears on a large portion of Catholic relics and religious devices.

The fact that you automatically associate it with the German war machine is a form of confirmation bias. So who is really not PC in this situation? How about you paint your little plastic men the way you want and he paints his the way he wants. Yes the Germans were guilty of some of the worst war crimes in history but from a tactical aspect there was a lot to learn from the Germans.....we Americans also wiped two entire cities in Japan basically off the map, but I bet if you saw an Ork bommer with Fat man and Little Boy painted on the two of the bombs you would not even associate it or find it offensive.


You're wrong. It's not "Confirmation Bias", and in this case the interpretation of the symbols is not the fault of the viewer.

The OP has clearly stated that the miniatures were painted to resemble SS uniforms with SS colors, insignia and iconography. Clearly the interpretation is not based on viewer bias but rather the painters deliberat choices. This is not an issue of some widely used historical symbols being mis-interpreted by the viewer, it's a matter of a specific historical use being inappropriately referenced by the artist.

German Tactics and other US atomic use are not the issue here, and -while important subjects in their own right- neither is a justification for the behavior above.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/23 16:04:14


Chicago Skirmish Wargames club. Join us for some friendly, casual gaming in the Windy City.
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http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/651712.page

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Made in ca
Rampaging Carnifex




West Coast, Canada

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Hanlon's_razor

I'll just leave this here.


   
Made in us
Stoic Grail Knight





Raleigh, NC

Judging the model concept alone, I can't imagine conversation with this person was exactly... stimulating.
   
Made in us
Pyromaniac Hellhound Pilot





 quickfuze wrote:
Virtually all of the German Iconography was stolen from historical reference and use. The "SS" was a dual Sig rune of Armanen origin. The "deathshead" is a widely recognized representation of Baal and appears on a large portion of Catholic relics and religious devices.

The fact that you automatically associate it with the German war machine is a form of confirmation bias. So who is really not PC in this situation?



I see that kind of counter-argument come up a lot in situations like this...


...the answer is the guy with Nazi symbols painted on his toys. Because regardless of what they originally stood for, these days they're kind of associated with, er, well, Nazis. It's not exactly unreasonable to take that into account. And yes, you'd get the same reaction out of me with the Ork bombs. There's funny, there's trying to be funny, and then there's 'Hah! Lots of people died horribly, I'm gonna make a joke about it with my plastic space soldiers".

As other people seem to think, I'd guess the first was a poor attempt at humor, and the second is just...out of place. I don't know if I'd feel comfortable having what boils down to a light-hearted game of toy soldiers with either one.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Louisiana

 MWHistorian wrote:
I'm not a big fan of political correctness at all.

That said, I would never have that conversion and would probably feel uncomfortable playing against it. But I have no inalienable right to go through life never being offended.


Yup. I have to agree with this sentiment in its entirety.

I think it behooves a free society to remain both conscious of the possibility for free speech to become a danger to the lives and property of others and deliberate in the prevention of it. However, potentially culturally insensitive table top gaming miniatures is far below the bar. If the guy sitting next to me on the buss can say that our president is a foreign-born 'n word', it aint for me to say how someone can paint their miniatures.

Now, the OP was, I think, inquiring primarily about the point at which one feels responsible for engaging in discourse, rather than asking about an objective standard of behavior. In the same way that I am not going to engage with that guy on the bus about his political views, I am not going to engage with my opponent in a table top game about his.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/23 16:16:21


Kirasu: Have we fallen so far that we are excited that GW is giving us the opportunity to spend 58$ for JUST the rules? Surprised it's not "Dataslate: Assault Phase"

AlexHolker: "The power loader is a forklift. The public doesn't complain about a forklift not having frontal armour protecting the crew compartment because the only enemy it is designed to face is the OHSA violation."

AlexHolker: "Allow me to put it this way: Paramount is Skynet, reboots are termination attempts, and your childhood is John Connor."
 
   
Made in us
Brigadier General






Chicago

I do find it interesting that many folks are less offended by the summary execution model than the SS models.

Surely with the recent publicized executions by Jihadists, a model that implies that the best solution is the same behavior would be at least -if not more- inflammatory than the SS references.

Not that I like either one, just an observation.

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My Project Log, mostly revolving around custom "Toybashed" terrain.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/651712.page

Visit the Chicago Valley Railroad!
https://chicagovalleyrailroad.blogspot.com 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Louisiana

 RiTides wrote:
I think the issue with the OP is that it breaks the immersion for me, by putting real world / current event issues into miniatures that are supposed to be in an alternate universe.


But is there not a place for that alternate universe to serve as a commentary on and criticism of reality?

I'm not suggesting that you should be thinking such thoughts when you are trying to have a fun time on Saturday night, and I get your point. But I did want to make an oblique point about the social commentary inherent in the Warhammer 40,000 fictional universe universe, and make a gentle reminder that fiction is influenced by and relates to reality.

Kirasu: Have we fallen so far that we are excited that GW is giving us the opportunity to spend 58$ for JUST the rules? Surprised it's not "Dataslate: Assault Phase"

AlexHolker: "The power loader is a forklift. The public doesn't complain about a forklift not having frontal armour protecting the crew compartment because the only enemy it is designed to face is the OHSA violation."

AlexHolker: "Allow me to put it this way: Paramount is Skynet, reboots are termination attempts, and your childhood is John Connor."
 
   
Made in us
Brigadier General






Chicago

weeble1000 wrote:

I think it behooves a free society to remain both conscious of the possibility for free speech to become a danger to the lives and property of others and deliberate in the prevention of it. However, potentially culturally insensitive table top gaming miniatures is far below the bar. If the guy sitting next to me on the buss can say that our president is a foreign-born 'n word', it aint for me to say how someone can paint their miniatures.

Now, the OP was, I think, inquiring primarily about the point at which one feels responsible for engaging in discourse, rather than asking about an objective standard of behavior. In the same way that I am not going to engage with that guy on the bus about his political views, I am not going to engage with my opponent in a table top game about his.


I don't think that any one is arguing that we should limit free speech. I also think that you're partly on the right track about "not engaging" but I'd take a different tack. Though we don't restrict speech unless absolutely necessary, society has a responsibility to express disproval of inappropriate behavior and to apply social consequences to those who continue to offend. Clearly the bus is probably not the place to engage a racist, but in the wider picture, it's not enough just to ignore. Part of what a society does do is to engage the person in debate and attempt to educate. If that is not successful, then we ostracize.

The flip side of "not having the right to not be offended" is removing the double-negative and seeing that we "have the right to be offended and the right to say so".

Chicago Skirmish Wargames club. Join us for some friendly, casual gaming in the Windy City.
http://chicagoskirmishwargames.com/blog/


My Project Log, mostly revolving around custom "Toybashed" terrain.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/651712.page

Visit the Chicago Valley Railroad!
https://chicagovalleyrailroad.blogspot.com 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Louisiana

 Eilif wrote:
I do find it interesting that many folks are less offended by the summary execution model than the SS models.

Surely with the recent publicized executions by Jihadists, a model that implies that the best solution is the same behavior would be at least -if not more- inflammatory than the SS references.

Not that I like either one, just an observation.


The irony is that such depictions are exactly what fundamentalism thrives on, in whatever particular form it takes of course, from Sri Lankan Buddhists to Jerry Falwell.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Eilif wrote:
weeble1000 wrote:

I think it behooves a free society to remain both conscious of the possibility for free speech to become a danger to the lives and property of others and deliberate in the prevention of it. However, potentially culturally insensitive table top gaming miniatures is far below the bar. If the guy sitting next to me on the buss can say that our president is a foreign-born 'n word', it aint for me to say how someone can paint their miniatures.

Now, the OP was, I think, inquiring primarily about the point at which one feels responsible for engaging in discourse, rather than asking about an objective standard of behavior. In the same way that I am not going to engage with that guy on the bus about his political views, I am not going to engage with my opponent in a table top game about his.


I don't think that any one is arguing that we should limit free speech. I also think that you're partly on the right track about "not engaging" but I'd take a different tack. Though we don't restrict speech unless absolutely necessary, society has a responsibility to express disproval of inappropriate behavior and to apply social consequences to those who continue to offend. Clearly the bus is probably not the place to engage a racist, but in the wider picture, it's not enough just to ignore. Part of what a society does do is to engage the person in debate and attempt to educate. If that is not successful, then we ostracize.

The flip side of "not having the right to not be offended" is removing the double-negative and seeing that we "have the right to be offended and the right to say so".


I agree with you Elif. I actually deleted a little section of my post talking about that, and regretting that I am too self-interested to take on such burdens in day-to-day life. At the end of the day, I'm not going to talk to that guy on the bus because of A) the semi-nihilistic view that such discourse would be pointless and B) the personal cost.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/23 16:32:00


Kirasu: Have we fallen so far that we are excited that GW is giving us the opportunity to spend 58$ for JUST the rules? Surprised it's not "Dataslate: Assault Phase"

AlexHolker: "The power loader is a forklift. The public doesn't complain about a forklift not having frontal armour protecting the crew compartment because the only enemy it is designed to face is the OHSA violation."

AlexHolker: "Allow me to put it this way: Paramount is Skynet, reboots are termination attempts, and your childhood is John Connor."
 
   
Made in us
Pyromaniac Hellhound Pilot





 Eilif wrote:
I do find it interesting that many folks are less offended by the summary execution model than the SS models.

Surely with the recent publicized executions by Jihadists, a model that implies that the best solution is the same behavior would be at least -if not more- inflammatory than the SS references.

Not that I like either one, just an observation.


Oh, I'm not less offended, it's just that I can see how someone with the poor taste to model something like that could think of it as a joke.

I'd like to stress that I try and make jokes about almost everything, and I'm seriously not amused.
   
Made in no
Stealthy Grot Snipa





Free speech 101.

The right to free speech ensures that the government can not stop you from, or punish you for expressing your opinion.

Free speech does not, however, mean that you can express whatever you want and everyone else should just shut the hell up about it. Your actions, including expressions, have consequences.

Furthermore, free speech some times clashes with other rights. For instance, you can wear a swastika t-shirt, or play with your nazi Space Marines, but not in my house. Or store, if I had a store. Why? Because it's my house. Go away.

For the topic at hand, would you have no problem with playing against a guy with a nazi/racist t-shirt? Why are miniatures (not including historicals) any different?

"The Emporer is a rouge trader."
- Charlie Chaplain. 
   
Made in us
Cosmic Joe





 Thud wrote:
Free speech 101.

The right to free speech ensures that the government can not stop you from, or punish you for expressing your opinion.

Free speech does not, however, mean that you can express whatever you want and everyone else should just shut the hell up about it. Your actions, including expressions, have consequences.

Furthermore, free speech some times clashes with other rights. For instance, you can wear a swastika t-shirt, or play with your nazi Space Marines, but not in my house. Or store, if I had a store. Why? Because it's my house. Go away.

For the topic at hand, would you have no problem with playing against a guy with a nazi/racist t-shirt? Why are miniatures (not including historicals) any different?

Of course you have the right to tell the guy that what he's doing is wrong.
I think I would have refused to play against these guys and I would have said so. They'd probably get angry and that's their right and their problem.



Also, check out my history blog: Minimum Wage Historian, a fun place to check out history that often falls between the couch cushions. 
   
 
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