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Made in us
Hardened Veteran Guardsman




Greater Boston Area, USA

I play Circle, and I want to melt heavy infantry.

I own gators and skinwalkers, both of which can brawl with heavy infantry, especially when buffed with Stone Skin. But I don't want to brawl, I want to wipe enemy heavy infantry off the table.

I don't own Tharn Ravagers, I don't own Blood Trackers or Blood Weavers. Mostly because I don't want to fork over the cash, but I'll get them if I think they would do well.

Seems to me, the above mentioned circle infantry options aren't that great for my meta (Cyriss and Legion in particular). If I'm fighting a living army with juicy light targets, I'd be in hog heaven, but blasts, and Eyeless Sight counter 1 wound infantry, even stealth, so I hesitate with Trackers and Weavers. I've heard that the Ravagers are flimsy, even for multi-wound models. I find that I fight non-living infantry often, how badly does that affect the usefulness of Ravagers?

Maybe I should buy the WoldWrath? I mean, that seems kinda silly, and ultimately boring (once I get over how friggin awesome it looks!). Just another piece to slam into the mix, no option other than to punch the teeth out of the first thing it touches. I wonder if anyone in my meta would even want to play against it, as it's kinda above and beyond what we're playing with.

Could Cassius use Curse of Shadows to reduce the armor on enemy heavy infantry, thus letting me melt them with my infantry and warbeasts? I think he could. I think if he gets that ability off, I think melting enemy infantry is within grasp.

The problem with brawling, is we trade a few models until one of us is down, and it goes one way or the other. Usually higher stats win, but again, I hate playing the high stat game, it's boring! When I need stats, I have them, but there's more to this game than who has more ARM or STR.

Any ideas? Any other ways to debuff, or otherwise cause heavy infantry to wither like ash?

EDIT - title change

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/24 22:02:57


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Made in us
Master Tormentor





St. Louis

Honestly, your best way to deal with heavy infantry is generally throwing a Stalker at it. Warp for berserk, charge in, and just keep buying attacks whenever you miss or fail to actually kill something. Works better with the Kayas, where you have a way to yoyo them, but if they don't have a lot of heavy support nearby you can still come out of the trade with a live Stalker.
   
Made in us
The Conquerer






Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

I wouldn't warp for Berserk if you are trying to kill heavy infantry with a Stalker. Warping Strength will serve you better as without it you are unlikely to be able to kill most heavy infantry in a single attack, and thus not trigger Berserk.

Heavy infantry in general are NOT going to get wiped out by opposing heavy infantry without getting a chance to hit back. Its kind of their thing. They absorb an enemy charge and then hit back even harder.

Blood Trackers are something every Circle player should have. If you're losing them all the blasts you're not spreading out like you should. With proper spacing, even a good deviation roll should only ever catch 2 or so. They should only have trouble with blasts when they're taking 3-4 of them at a time, and/or the blasts are AOE4+(IE: you're facing Menoth and they've got a Vanquisher with a vassal buddy)

Defense in this game is actually better than armor. Especially when your faction only nets you armor in the 15-17 range. At that point, its better to got with the higher defense and low arm infantry.

This is a game where stuff dies. A lot. You just need to accept losses. Killing enemy heavy infantry is something you'll take losses doing unless you commit a couple heavies to do it, which isn't a bad idea.

And don't worry about the Woldwrath skewing out your Meta. Colossals and Gargs are not meta warping or over powered. Most of the Gargantuans are actually poor choices for their point costs. The Circle one in particular is in solidly in the below-average category(but better than the Mountain King and Archangel who are in the Cool-paperweight category)

A couple normal heavy beasts/jacks that are decent in melee will hurt any Colossal something fierce if they actually fail to kill it. And there are a few, like the Bronzeback, who kill Colossals by themselves even when the dice decide to roll bad. Plus the Woldwrath has the in-built problem that your warlock(unless its Baulder) can't spend Fury to heal them.

Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! 
   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter







What heavy infantry are you having trouble with?

Off the top of my head a Berserked/Primaled Stalker should be able to deal with some heavy infantry, but really expensive/obnoxious ones (shieldwall/buffed Cetratii, Bastions with Harbinger, etc) aren't going to melt like paper no matter what you throw at them out of the Circle list. Circle usually prefers to avoid serious threats rather than trying to stand up and fight them; we're the subtle faction, not the trade-blows faction. Lock them down and go around.

As to the Woldwrath it's very situational and requires you to build a list specifically to make it work, it's not a general-purpose unit by any measure and isn't going to solve your heavy infantry problem.

(Sidenote: I just noticed, the Woldwrath is immune to spells, but an animus cast by a beast isn't a spell, so you could have a Primaled Woldwrath if you really wanted to)

Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using.
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Made in us
Painlord Titan Princeps of Slaanesh




Primal only works on living warbeasts. The wrath is a construct.
   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter







Leo_the_Rat wrote:
Primal only works on living warbeasts. The wrath is a construct.


Ah, well. There are other animi that still help.

Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using.
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Made in us
The Conquerer






Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

I don't think any of the useful Circle Animi can effect the Woldwrath.

Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! 
   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter







 Grey Templar wrote:
I don't think any of the useful Circle Animi can effect the Woldwrath.


Tracker (mostly useless), Bounding (potentially silly), Wraithbane (situational but useful when applicable), Lightning Strike (silly), Amuck (potentially terrifying on a sweep), Acceleration (free extra sweep if I'm reading it right), and Rites of Dawn (not that helpful). You could do some scary things with power attacks if you have enough griffons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
An Accelerated Woldwrath might actually be a heavy infantry solution, going back to the topic at hand, at least if you can engage without the Woldwrath dying. Two POW 19 sweeps can do a fair bit of damage.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/11/04 06:27:34


Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using.
Homebrew oldhammer project: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/790996.page#10896267
Meridian: Necromunda-based 40k skirmish: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/795374.page 
   
Made in gb
Thermo-Optical Hac Tao





Gosport, UK

It's such a shame Gargantuans are pretty meh. I love the Woldwrath and I will get him at some point but it won't see regular play. And part of the reason I'm looking at picking up some trolls in the future is the Mountain King but he's the worst one! And the poor poor Archangel. Best model PP make I reckon, resigned to paper weight status :/

In terms of the question, I'm completely new to the game but our answer to most things we otherwise struggle with seems to be 'chuck a Stalker at it'.
   
Made in us
Painlord Titan Princeps of Slaanesh




Lightning strike doesn't work either. it is an out of activation move and therefore Gargs can't take advantage of it.
   
Made in us
The Conquerer






Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

 AnomanderRake wrote:
 Grey Templar wrote:
I don't think any of the useful Circle Animi can effect the Woldwrath.


Tracker (mostly useless), Bounding (potentially silly), Wraithbane (situational but useful when applicable), Lightning Strike (silly), Amuck (potentially terrifying on a sweep), Acceleration (free extra sweep if I'm reading it right), and Rites of Dawn (not that helpful). You could do some scary things with power attacks if you have enough griffons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
An Accelerated Woldwrath might actually be a heavy infantry solution, going back to the topic at hand, at least if you can engage without the Woldwrath dying. Two POW 19 sweeps can do a fair bit of damage.


Colossals cannot be placed or move out their normal movement. So no Sprint. And acceleration doesn't let you make a power attack, it only let's you make a * action, of which the wold wrath has none.

Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! 
   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter







Then I guess I was misreading it and it's not as scary as I thought. That leaves Amuck, Wraithbane, and Bounding on the list of things that could be helpful to the Woldwrath.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 ImAGeek wrote:
It's such a shame Gargantuans are pretty meh. I love the Woldwrath and I will get him at some point but it won't see regular play. And part of the reason I'm looking at picking up some trolls in the future is the Mountain King but he's the worst one! And the poor poor Archangel. Best model PP make I reckon, resigned to paper weight status :/

In terms of the question, I'm completely new to the game but our answer to most things we otherwise struggle with seems to be 'chuck a Stalker at it'.


The other default Circle answer is "go around".

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/11/04 16:55:17


Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using.
Homebrew oldhammer project: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/790996.page#10896267
Meridian: Necromunda-based 40k skirmish: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/795374.page 
   
Made in us
The Conquerer






Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

Bounding IIRC gives leap, which can't be used either. Or am I confusing it with something else?

Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! 
   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter







 Grey Templar wrote:
Bounding IIRC gives leap, which can't be used either. Or am I confusing it with something else?


You're confusing it with something else. It's +2" move and +2 to attacks when making Slam or Trample power attacks.

Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using.
Homebrew oldhammer project: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/790996.page#10896267
Meridian: Necromunda-based 40k skirmish: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/795374.page 
   
Made in us
The Conquerer






Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

OK, then it works.

Nobody ever uses that crappy goat anyway.

Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! 
   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter







 Grey Templar wrote:
OK, then it works.

Nobody ever uses that crappy goat anyway.


Since when? This is Warmachine. Nothing is crappy. (He's not a good pick if he's going to be your only heavy or if you're expecting lots of armoured enemies but he can control space better than any living heavy in Circle, even if he needs backup to actually kill anything).

Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using.
Homebrew oldhammer project: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/790996.page#10896267
Meridian: Necromunda-based 40k skirmish: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/795374.page 
   
Made in gb
Thermo-Optical Hac Tao





Gosport, UK

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Then I guess I was misreading it and it's not as scary as I thought. That leaves Amuck, Wraithbane, and Bounding on the list of things that could be helpful to the Woldwrath.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 ImAGeek wrote:
It's such a shame Gargantuans are pretty meh. I love the Woldwrath and I will get him at some point but it won't see regular play. And part of the reason I'm looking at picking up some trolls in the future is the Mountain King but he's the worst one! And the poor poor Archangel. Best model PP make I reckon, resigned to paper weight status :/

In terms of the question, I'm completely new to the game but our answer to most things we otherwise struggle with seems to be 'chuck a Stalker at it'.


The other default Circle answer is "go around".


Thanks, I'll bear that in mind. So, apply Stalker, if that fails go around Victory shall be mine!
   
Made in us
The Conquerer






Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Nothing is crappy.


Thats not true. Warmachine still has "bad" units. They're just pretty rare. The Gnarlhorn, and Shadowhorn, is in that category. Its far too niche to be a good use of points, especially since you'll be giving up a warpwolf to take it.

Counter-slam is basically its only trick, and its not a great one. Too easy to mitigate(just run a dude to engage him or ensure he cannot move directly towards the heavy you are moving into his range)

The only goat that's useful is the Riphorn due to not bad P+S, Grab and Smash is amazing, he runs and charges for free(making him effectively Fury 5), and his animus gives Bulldoze.

Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! 
   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter







You don't take Satyrs to do damage, you take Warpwolves to do damage. Satyrs are for clearing lanes and moving enemy models around, they enable assassionations and clear out/control what the enemy can and can't do.

It's a different playstyle from Warpwolves. Neither is better or worse, neither is crappy or powerful.

Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using.
Homebrew oldhammer project: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/790996.page#10896267
Meridian: Necromunda-based 40k skirmish: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/795374.page 
   
Made in us
The Conquerer






Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

Sure, thats what the designers would like you to do with them. The problem is they aren't really that good at it and Circle has stuff that does it better.

If enemy models are in the way, you just teleport warpwolves around them with stones. Or you run eKreuger who has TK.

Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! 
   
Made in gb
Thermo-Optical Hac Tao





Gosport, UK

The Gnarlhorn with Mohsar slamming models into his pillars of salt looks fun though.
   
 
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