Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

It would be nice to have a encyclopedia of cheats, how they look, and how one can react to them.

Here are those I've encountered recently:


Movement cheat

Imprecise measurement, many models end up moving an extra half inch or more.

Shady spell rolls

Boom your opponent has all the spells he wanted or something. Yet you didn't know what he was rolling.

Hidden dice

Dice end up hidden out of sight, being in a box on his far sight of the table or behind rock formations.

Doesn't share information

Doesn't want to tell you why he's casting this spell that seemingly makes no sense, or something else.
(this shouldn't be an issue if you have a proper army list and the proper explanations of course)

Shady dice

Makes all his 5++, never fails a 2+ or 3+, generally way too good average. Dice do not roll (much).



So, what cheats have you come across, and how do you deal with such players ?

Say it makes you uncomfortable how they perform an action and to either be more vocal and explain things as they do them, roll in a neutral zone or swap dice. If their reaction is unsatisfactory to what you want, then they aren't the opponent for you and don't play them again. Even if they're on the level, if you aren't comfortable with how they play the game to the point that it takes away your enjoyment, that's not the opponent you need.

Shady Dice don't necessarily have to be a cheat and it's hard to prove that.

In general, pretty much every actual cheating attempt is an immediate Red Card offense and gets you disqualified for the remainder of the tournament and the next one as well. No refunding of any fees, of course.

Taking dice away too fast (as that is what you referred to in a few points) and being called out on it results in a Yellow Card offense and a forced re-roll of all dice if the opposing player wishes to do so.

 SharkoutofWata wrote:
Say it makes you uncomfortable how they perform an action and to either be more vocal and explain things as they do them, roll in a neutral zone or swap dice. If their reaction is unsatisfactory to what you want, then they aren't the opponent for you and don't play them again. Even if they're on the level, if you aren't comfortable with how they play the game to the point that it takes away your enjoyment, that's not the opponent you need.

I agree with that. I tend to give far too much benefit of the doubt and then only realize the extent of the problem after the game - which was miserable.

But there's a "but", especially for tournament play where you just don't pick the opponent.

For those cases, you need another intermediary step before pack your things and leave.

morgoth wrote:

For those cases, you need another intermediary step before pack your things and leave.

Judges?

For the Gamer's Inch, if the worst offense you're seeing is a half inch, I'm shocked. It is actually a lot harder to never do than it seems, and you always notice your opponents, very rarely your own. Anything less than an inch, I usually ignore. Some of the most fun players I go up against have the same gamers inches s the least fun.

Whenever people whine about my imprecise movement, I start measuring all 90 of my Gaunts' movements out individually.

morgoth wrote:

Doesn't share information

Doesn't want to tell you why he's casting this spell that seemingly makes no sense, or something else.
(this shouldn't be an issue if you have a proper army list and the proper explanations of course)

I don't understand this one.

As long he tells you the EFFECTS of the spell, why does he need to share the REASONS with you?

If you fail to see future consequences of his actions that's not his problem. he need not tell you his plan, only the legal side of what he's doing.

Bharring wrote:
For the Gamer's Inch, if the worst offense you're seeing is a half inch, I'm shocked. It is actually a lot harder to never do than it seems, and you always notice your opponents, very rarely your own. Anything less than an inch, I usually ignore. Some of the most fun players I go up against have the same gamers inches s the least fun.

It's partly because of triangles and it's theoretically solveable by laying the tape measure flat on the table next to the model instead of hovering it over them. But on an actual gaming board that's almost always difficult if not flat-out impossible to do with a tape measure, due to the size and bulk of the part that holds the rolled-up measuring tape and the intervening terrain on the table itself.

See, when most people look down at their models when moving them, they don't look down at them at a perpindicular (90 degree) angle, as this would require their eye to be directly over the models. Instead, we view them from a distance back, and when we look at the end of the tape measure and try to line it up with the forward edge of the model's base, we're actually putting the model slightly ahead of where it should be, due to the tape measure's height from the table.

Personally, I try to get around it by not measuring by the base, but instead a common point on the model, preferably the highest point on the model (usually the head). This lets me take a lot less of that gamer's inch because I can put the tape measure right above their head.

The other main part is that we tend to move the tape measure forward slightly when we move the model. This is because our arms are connected through our torso, and moving one affects the other. When we extend an arm, we lean forward a bit (go ahead, try it right now in your chair) which pushes our other hand forward too because our shoulders move with our bodies.

Everyone does this, and it's exaggerated for our opponent, whom on the other side of the table, is suffering from that geometry triangle perspective thingy but in reverse - they see the tape measure being slightly further away from them than it actually is, which makes that half-inch extra movement look like an inch or more.

There's a reason it's the most common form of cheating - we all do it, we can't stop doing it, and we don't even know we're doing it, and our opponent always sees us doing it and from their point of view, we're gaining even more distance than we actually are for the exact same reasons that we're cheating, and they don't even know it.

 BoomWolf wrote:

morgoth wrote:

Doesn't share information

Doesn't want to tell you why he's casting this spell that seemingly makes no sense, or something else.
(this shouldn't be an issue if you have a proper army list and the proper explanations of course)

I don't understand this one.

As long he tells you the EFFECTS of the spell, why does he need to share the REASONS with you?

If you fail to see future consequences of his actions that's not his problem. he need not tell you his plan, only the legal side of what he's doing.

As I said, that only happens if he didn't properly share his list beforehand.

He doesn't need to tell you his plan, but if he's casting Force on a Dreadknight that is unable to assault and you ask him why, he should tell you that the Force power also activates his psilencer which he didn't tell you about in the list sharing step.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bharring wrote:
For the Gamer's Inch, if the worst offense you're seeing is a half inch, I'm shocked. It is actually a lot harder to never do than it seems, and you always notice your opponents, very rarely your own. Anything less than an inch, I usually ignore. Some of the most fun players I go up against have the same gamers inches s the least fun.

6 movement phases (+run) of half an inch is 3 inch, and then your opponent magically makes a 10" charge out of a roll of 11 which scores him a differential of 5VP, and now you're pissed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Pouncey wrote:

Everyone does this, and it's exaggerated for our opponent, whom on the other side of the table, is suffering from that geometry triangle perspective thingy but in reverse - they see the tape measure being slightly further away from them than it actually is, which makes that half-inch extra movement look like an inch or more.

There's a reason it's the most common form of cheating - we all do it, we can't stop doing it, and we don't even know we're doing it, and our opponent always sees us doing it and from their point of view, we're gaining even more distance than we actually are for the exact same reasons that we're cheating, and they don't even know it.

Yeah well, when I say half an inch or more, it's a measured half an inch or more, not an error of projection

That being said, there are very fine tools to avoid such problems (that piece of plastic with a 6" side for example), and there's a huge difference between someone who actually tries to move correctly and someone who takes half an inch or more in every single movement phase.

And even if you just have a tape measure: put the tip in front of the model, put your finger right next to the six inches mark, move the model to your finger.

OP... Wulfen Murder-make.

I deal with all cheats the same way. Call them on everything I think they are cheating on. If suddenly they have a power i didnt see them role for I ask them to roll for it again. If a model apperas a long range from where it started I ask how it got there etc. If they dont come up with a valid point, reason, rule etc for what they are doing, I simple say ' Ok I see how this is going, you win'. Then I clear my minis from the table and move on. I then tend to let people know they cheat.

This being said I dont expect evry movement to be exactly 6 inches and so on. I think if your not happy with how your oppoinent is playing then confront them. Regardless of age and size.

I kill them.

 CrosisDePurger wrote:
I kill them.

I would advise making that more polite.
Not reported because you're new.

What do you want him to say? It's obviously tongue-in-cheek, since I certainly haven't heard of any wargame slaughters involving someone getting clubbed to death with a Transcendant C'Tan or with a Riptide shoved down their mouth.

I mean, personally, I prefer to wait outside the shop and then knock 'em over the head with a brick when they go around the corner, but that's just me.

But, no, seriously, usually peer pressure/public shaming works wonders if they are actually cheating at the game. Sure, mistakes get made, you forget a rule, or interpret it differently than others, which is not cheating, but stuff like loaded dice, lying about your dice rolls, that sort of stuff...

... yeah, call them out on it, right there in front of everyone. Dude/ette will either clean up their act, or will find themselves with a shortage of opponents.

Verviedi wrote:
Whenever people whine about my imprecise movement, I start measuring all 90 of my Gaunts' movements out individually.

Same here. They usually stop the QQ right then and there.

Punch them in the face.

MrSwisher wrote:

Verviedi wrote:
Whenever people whine about my imprecise movement, I start measuring all 90 of my Gaunts' movements out individually.

Same here. They usually stop the QQ right then and there.

So you mean you have the perfect excuse to have good spacing when you need it and a lot more guys in contact when it matters ?

If you can't handle moving your Gaunts accurately, you're responsible for finding a solution - any solution, including moving 5" instead of 6 so you don't really care about the accuracy of the moves inside the blob.

Most people feel bad when cheating but a lot of gamers don't mind much

I don't confront them, I did once in the past and they blew up. So now if someone cheats, and I know it is intentional. I will question it once, if they argue, get upset, raise their voice, or retaliate, I just let it slide and be quite. Then I get a phantom text from my wife, leave, and never play them again.

I overheard the main offender talking about how he can never seem to get a game. He was confused how everyone already has games arranged. Which they dont, but the go to excuse is "Sorry, waiting for so and so to show up". Then when someone else shows up, you say, "oh, looks like so and so might not be here, guess I can play this new dude"

"Tank Squadron movement cheat

Two tanks are side by side. Then one tank moves "freely" when it should first move forward to disengage, then rotate. "

Tanks are fully able to move sideways all they like, they dont have to move in straight lines and pivot.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
"Tank Squadron movement cheat

Two tanks are side by side. Then one tank moves "freely" when it should first move forward to disengage, then rotate. "

Tanks are fully able to move sideways all they like, they dont have to move in straight lines and pivot.

Are you sure about that ?

morgoth wrote:
Movement cheat

Imprecise measurement, many models end up moving an extra half inch or more.

Use my tape measure to push models back to where they should be. Insist on measuring for my opponent.

Shady spell rolls

Boom your opponent has all the spells he wanted or something. Yet you didn't know what he was rolling.

Meh. Don't care.

Tank Squadron movement cheat

Two tanks are side by side. Then one tank moves "freely" when it should first move forward to disengage, then rotate.

Meh. Again, doesn't bother me really.

Hidden dice

Dice end up hidden out of sight, being in a box on his far sight of the table or behind rock formations.

Ask for a reroll in the open.

Doesn't share information

Doesn't want to tell you why he's casting this spell that seemingly makes no sense, or something else.
(this shouldn't be an issue if you have a proper army list and the proper explanations of course)

He's not required to explain why he's doing something so... ?

Shady dice

Makes all his 5++, never fails a 2+ or 3+, generally way too good average. Dice do not roll (much).

Ask to borrow his hot dice.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

morgoth wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
"Tank Squadron movement cheat

Two tanks are side by side. Then one tank moves "freely" when it should first move forward to disengage, then rotate. "

Tanks are fully able to move sideways all they like, they dont have to move in straight lines and pivot.

Are you sure about that ?

Yes.

Rip their junk off and feed it to their girlfriend while impregnating their mom. Next question?

morgoth wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
"Tank Squadron movement cheat

Two tanks are side by side. Then one tank moves "freely" when it should first move forward to disengage, then rotate. "

Tanks are fully able to move sideways all they like, they dont have to move in straight lines and pivot.

Are you sure about that ?

Absolutely. Next.

Okay, either people REALLY hate cheaters or have a scary sense of joking around.

If I see cheating I do point it out and just say "please try not to do that again.".

Too far movement is easy by math [table width - (deployment zone size + movement speed X what turn it is)] check it out and see if they are farther than they should be... nice to point out an impossibility.

It then gets down to questioning every thing they do till they get a clue.

The only thing that bothers me is rolling out of sight and not being able to answer something when questioned i.e "how did you move fire move with that Chimera" I knew he couldn't do it and he wasn't very happy when my Baals started to afterwards.

Cheaters? Bury them under the employee parking lot behind the games store.

I usually don't care that much about an extra bit of movement.
The only time it annoys me is when I spend a minute or two measuring to make sure his Vindicator can't move and hit my models.. and then he "happens" to be just in range.
Or when I position my models in such a way that he needs to roll a 10 to assault me and then my opponent rolls a 9 and claims it's enough.

So when I spend a good amount of time to make sure you are out of range, you ARE out of range.

I'm extremely blunt in manner when dealing with cheaters. In the past I've called them on it in front of the gods and everyone. Not yelling or a exaggerated manner but in a calm clear and projected tone that draws eyes to the offender. That's only for blatant and obvious shenanigans though, the accidental quarter of a inch I could care less about.

Chaoslord Doritobreath hovering over and shielding his dice like they contain the forbidden knowledge of the ancients is just obnoxious and I'm not willing to put up with it.