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Let me start this thread off by making it clear that as soon as this thread derails into another hatred filled bandwagon against BTP/MWG or anything like that I will immediately PM a mod and ask for closing of the thread. I am making this thread to (hopefully) showcase an average interaction with BTP.

The Army:

I converted this army from the following GW kits:
Dark Vengeance
2 Space Marine Rhino's
1 Box of Obliterators
1 Typhus
1 Space Marine Tactical Squad
And a lot of Greenstuff

(pictures were taken with my phone and I was in a hurry)

The entire thing:

Terminators + Typhus:

The Rhino's:

The Helbrute, Sorcerer and Cypher:

The Plague Marines:

The Chaos Bikers:

The Obliterators:


Sending them off to the states:

I have send stuff to the US before, mainly magic cards for trade-ins to online stores. But had never send anything big/fragile like a 40k army. Luckily we had a lot of bubblewrap and other packaging material in the house and after a good 30 mins the box didnt rattle when we threw it, so good sign! (hopefully)...

Off to the post office we went aaaaaand:

Proof the receiver matches BTP's adress:

Email correspondence:

My email correspondence with BTP went slow, that is however not their fault as I am from the EU. They usually answered one email at around 8 pm my time I would answer and then it would either get a response later that day when I was sleeping or the next day at around 8 pm again. However as I was still working on the last few plague marines during this correspondence I didnt mind the wait.

My first email asking them for a quote:

Hello BlueTable Painting,

I have a ~1500 point Chaos Space Marine army that I might want to get painted up, they are all assembled and based. For most of the models, table top standard would be enough (that would be level 2 or 3 with your company?). For a few I would be looking at a higher level like 5-6.

Here is a list of the table top standard stuff:
14 Plague Marines
2 Rhinos
3 Obliterators (Resin)
5 Terminators
3 Bikers
1 Helbrute
1 Sorcerer & spell familier

Then I have 2 characters that I would like to have extra detail etc.
1 Typhus (Resin & primed black)
1 Cypher (Own conversion)

I also have very specific ideas for the paint job on some models, would these requests increase the cost?


Thank you for your time,

Name

A day later I got a response from the employee whom I have been talking to since. No correspondence has been made with or to Shawn Gately from me. Everything has been handled by this employee who I will not name.

Name,

Here's that quote! Let me know what you think!

-Name

The file attatched was an excel sheet, it had been set up in a way were you can change the painting levels of some models and the price will update accordingly, here is an image of said excel document (above whats seen in the picture was the project name and my name):


After looking through the excell sheet I figured the prices were fair and responded to BTPs email:

Hey Name,

These prices look fair, since sending my email I thought of 2 things that I might want to add to my order;

Both of my chaos rhinos have been converted from space marine rhinos, and they have Hunter Killer Missile launchers counting as Havoc Launchers. Could BTP replace the Hunter Killers with actual Havoc launchers? Also, I would like one of the rhinos to have a fly icon painted on the top similar to this http://images.dakkadakka.com/gallery/2012/4/16/354197_sm-Chaos,%20Nurgle,%20Rhino.JPG

Could you please tell me if this will be possible, and update the price accordingly?

-Name

A quick response later I had my updated (and final quote):

Name,

Here's that revised quote!

-Name

Picture of the updated excell:


I didnt really agree with the pricing on those conversions, 60$ is way too much just to replace hunter killer missiles with havoc launchers. But oh well, it saved me the trouble of sniping them from some online bits website and having to wait till they get here. If I was gonna pay this much for my army anyways, a little too much on the bits couldnt really hurt. The freehand budget seemd high aswell, but I dont know how they calculate this. From their website I figured they just set them to a certain amount and go from there. I mailed BTP about this aswell:

Hey Name,

Thanks for the updated quote, the prices for the conversions and free hand are steeper than I expected. But I would still like them anyways. After changing shipping to Europe it came to 803,28$ which is a price I can agree on. Where can I send my models to and where do I send my paypal deposit?

-Name

After that came an email from BTP about their shipping adress and paypal information. which I could share but it would basically come down to number, name. number, name "let me know when youve placed that deposit" name.... so lets save some space. After I made the deposit I mailed them again:

Hey Name,

The 65% deposit has been made and my army is all packed up pretty much ready to ship.

I would like to repeat the request that I made in the deposit. Please when returning the project to me write "Returned Goods" and "Teruggestuurde Goederen" on the customs form. This has to do with Dutch import laws, and if it is neglected I would have to pay import fees for the models themselves instead of the painting service.

Thank you very much,

-Name

After that this email came:

Awesome! In a few days you will receive a "Request for Final Instructions" email, in which you will explain every detail of your project, including pictures, web references, etc.

At the end of the process when they verify your shipping address, be sure to reiterate those instructions

-Name

It actually only took like 3 hours for the request for final instructions email to come in:

This is a request for Instructions for your project. Please read this carefully as this is our contract. I will solidify quote and accept deposit once this is in.

If you have already sent Instructions, you will need to re-send them in response to this email before your project can proceed.

We need from you a single document that we can print out and put in a bin with your models such that Assembler and Painter will all know what to do without any further input. The artists do not have access to company email.

You may use the attached as a fill-in-the-blanks or just respond to this email. It is up to you to give us all the information that we need.

Nothing from emails or phone calls will make it to the artist. It ALL must go into a single written document.

You are welcome to leave details up to us. We will fill in where information is lacking using our best judgment.

If something you put in your Instructions was not quoted for, we will add that to the project total, just like ordering at a restaurant.

Take a few days to carefully consider your project as we would prefer not to alter the project after it starts. Making alterations after the project is started often creates complications.

When your project is done, if you want alterations of any kind there are two categories:

1) It was in your instructions and we did not follow them. There is no charge for this.

2) It was not in your instructions, but you still want it changed. We are happy to make the change, but there might be a charge. As long as you are willing to pay we are glad to re-do.

All projects are under our Terms of Service. By submitting your Instructions sheet you are agreeing to the Terms of Service.



BTP

I send them my master Instructions by mail, the master instructions:












After that I send an email about the freehand DA logo I wanted on cyphers shoulder and if it would fit into the 60$ budget, BTP told me they suggested adding another 20$ or just see what the artist can do within the period of time 60$ would get me. As I found that 60$ estimation to be on the high end of things for the freehand I asked for (I'd imagine it wouldnt be that much work, make a stencil out of the fly and spray it black or actually freehand it, which still, its a pretty simple shaped fly.) I said that I would keep it at 60$.

Interested in seeing how the models turn out. Heard good things and bad things about btp so hopefully you end up with something good tho!

The prices seem pretty expensive but I've never gotten anything painted on commison before so I'm not familiar with the cost.
How long did they say that it would take for them to paint up your army before sending it back to you?

 chiefbigredman wrote:
Interested in seeing how the models turn out. Heard good things and bad things about btp so hopefully you end up with something good tho!

The prices seem pretty expensive but I've never gotten anything painted on commison before so I'm not familiar with the cost.
How long did they say that it would take for them to paint up your army before sending it back to you?

Shipping from me to them will take 7-14 business days I think. After that on their site it says some projects take 4-7 weeks, but most 7-10 weeks, + shipping back to me. So maybe they will get here late january-ish (considering christmas and new-years usually slow down postal services).

Please post updated pictures of the models when they are done. Interested to see how your experience holds up. Also, please update on the communication after everything is finished, as mid/post production communication seems to be one of their flaws.

The pricing is dirt cheap. Actually really very surprisingly cheap. I'd go so far as to say way too cheap.

The current Utah state minimum wage is $7.25 per hour.

You have therefore paid for a fair amount under (taking into account studio and material overheads) 100 hours. I would guess possibly around 50 hours, 60 tops; a single working week. To my eye to a decent standard I'd allow at least 4 weeks, more likely 6 or 8.

Set your expectation for quality to very low indeed...

I hope you don't feel you've wasted your money when you get stuff back, but I always advise people to consider what they're paying for when they're concerned about how much, or how cheap something is.

I'm not sure how much of a 'painting and modelling blog' it will be if you're not doing any painting or modelling past this point, or am I missing a point somewhere?

If it is to showcase an interaction with a company might be more appropriate elsewhere. Interested to see how an interaction with a commission company goes though, especially as I'd like to try doing a few commission models myself.

 Ignatius-Grulgor wrote:
I'm not sure how much of a 'painting and modelling blog' it will be if you're not doing any painting or modelling past this point, or am I missing a point somewhere?

If it is to showcase an interaction with a company might be more appropriate elsewhere. Interested to see how an interaction with a commission company goes though, especially as I'd like to try doing a few commission models myself.

It isn't a P and M thread since he isnt doing any work. But this was a guy white knighting BTP in the chaos dwarves thread, so I wouldn't be surprised if he gets better than usual treatment or painting if shawn was paying attention to the thread, which we know he was.

 Ustrello wrote:

 Ignatius-Grulgor wrote:
I'm not sure how much of a 'painting and modelling blog' it will be if you're not doing any painting or modelling past this point, or am I missing a point somewhere?

If it is to showcase an interaction with a company might be more appropriate elsewhere. Interested to see how an interaction with a commission company goes though, especially as I'd like to try doing a few commission models myself.

It isn't a P and M thread since he isnt doing any work. But this was a guy white knighting BTP in the chaos dwarves thread, so I wouldn't be surprised if he gets better than usual treatment or painting if shawn was paying attention to the thread, which we know he was.

Ah that's a shame then, not sure which thread you're referring to, I'll have to go hunt it down, I'm assuming a less than positive one given the white knighting comment. Don't really know much about the company beyond that odd very iffy kickstarter thing they did at one point.

Edit: reading the BTP dwarf-gate thread now, this is totally a useful guide to the world of commissions, if you're looking for a 'how not to'.

We're going to go to Dakka Discussions with this. We can review it when we get some images of actual painting and modelling as to whether it still belongs there or here.

And to the thread in general, make sure you keep this civil. Any disagreements with users from other threads that are bought into this one are going to break several rules of the site, so don't do it

 M0ff3l wrote:
I didnt really agree with the pricing on those conversions, 60$ is way too much just to replace hunter killer missiles with havoc launchers. But oh well, it saved me the trouble of sniping them from some online bits website and having to wait till they get here.

After looking on eBay, I'm going to have to disagree with you on this. I'd be quite comfortable with the wait.

Have they essentially just charged the trade price for two CSM Rhinos?

This is actually a smart way to get good painting from BTP. Everyone will be watching and it'll be a chance for BTP to give this project the attention they should give to every project.

I'm guessing this $800 project is going to turn out better than the much more expensive chaos dwarf army did.

Is it just me or does this post seem like a bit of post-purchase rationalization? I mean coming right after the other thread on BTP makes it look defensive, but proclaiming this a blog of another person's work just seems a bit self serving.

 Surtur wrote:
Is it just me or does this post seem like a bit of post-purchase rationalization? I mean coming right after the other thread on BTP makes it look defensive, but proclaiming this a blog of another person's work just seems a bit self serving.

This is a comparison to what happened in the other Thread. Sure its not on the scope of the Chaos Dwarves, and probably this will be done to a better standard vs that of what happened due to how public this has gotten. OP is being kind enough to do this to prove his points that were said in Tenebre's thread. Whether or not one agrees with Tenebre or M0ff3l, its nice to be able to see the full process play out.

I will also say that $60 for conversion just for 2 Havocs is gonna be $55 profit for BTP. I am sure they have the bits in their "collection". Not to start bashing BTP, but thats just plain stupid if that is all M0ff3l is going to get even with asking for the freehand DA for Cypher.

I can't wait to see how this comes out. I've never seen this process in action before - I painted all my own stuff - so I'm fascinated.

winterdyne wrote:
The pricing is dirt cheap. Actually really very surprisingly cheap. I'd go so far as to say way too cheap.

The current Utah state minimum wage is $7.25 per hour.

You have therefore paid for a fair amount under (taking into account studio and material overheads) 100 hours. I would guess possibly around 50 hours, 60 tops; a single working week. To my eye to a decent standard I'd allow at least 4 weeks, more likely 6 or 8.

Set your expectation for quality to very low indeed...

I hope you don't feel you've wasted your money when you get stuff back, but I always advise people to consider what they're paying for when they're concerned about how much, or how cheap something is.

I dont think I will be dissapointed with the quality. Its all in the eye of the beholder in my opinion. You paint professionally, so your standards are way higher than mine. So far I've only painted 1 army myself and it didnt turn out that amazing. Just recently they uploaded a level 3 ork army to their youtube channel, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bv_WxBM5jfg&list=UU-aSLyvFLGEmNFcGomzL47w . If this is the level of painting Im getting for my 800$ I will be happy with it. But more experienced painters might not.

I'm a little confused...
Why, given the amount of commission painters across the UK, would you then take the risk of sending what isn't a small amount of financial risk, across the pond for painting, where if anything goes wrong, there's absolutely no chance of you even visiting the studios?

 M0ff3l wrote:

winterdyne wrote:
The pricing is dirt cheap. Actually really very surprisingly cheap. I'd go so far as to say way too cheap.

The current Utah state minimum wage is $7.25 per hour.

You have therefore paid for a fair amount under (taking into account studio and material overheads) 100 hours. I would guess possibly around 50 hours, 60 tops; a single working week. To my eye to a decent standard I'd allow at least 4 weeks, more likely 6 or 8.

Set your expectation for quality to very low indeed...

I hope you don't feel you've wasted your money when you get stuff back, but I always advise people to consider what they're paying for when they're concerned about how much, or how cheap something is.

I dont think I will be dissapointed with the quality. Its all in the eye of the beholder in my opinion. You paint professionally, so your standards are way higher than mine. So far I've only painted 1 army myself and it didnt turn out that amazing. Just recently they uploaded a level 3 ork army to their youtube channel, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bv_WxBM5jfg&list=UU-aSLyvFLGEmNFcGomzL47w . If this is the level of painting Im getting for my 800$ I will be happy with it. But more experienced painters might not.

You're missing the point. I think much more than a week is required, even for a nice neat basic standard, which is the minimum a professional commission outfit should be putting out.

I think that's an insane amount of money to pay to get an army painted. It's not a huge army either. Perhaps I just have an entirely different perspective on the hobby, but in my opinion you just paid someone $800 to have the fun of painting instead of you. You say you're not a particularly good painter, but neither am I. But it's still incredibly gratifying to make the army truly your own. You went to the trouble of kitbashing and greenstuffing and converting the models, why not go all the way?

 calamarialldayerrday wrote:
I think that's an insane amount of money to pay to get an army painted. It's not a huge army either. Perhaps I just have an entirely different perspective on the hobby, but in my opinion you just paid someone $800 to have the fun of painting instead of you. You say you're not a particularly good painter, but neither am I. But it's still incredibly gratifying to make the army truly your own. You went to the trouble of kitbashing and greenstuffing and converting the models, why not go all the way?

Because painting isnt fun for everyone? I really dont like painting, partially because im not good at it and partially because its really tedious to me. Also I dont have the motivation and time to paint myself. I have some necrons that Ive had assembled and primed for 3 years and still havent painted. And it is because I went trough the trouble of kitbashing and greenstuffing that I dont want this army to sit unpainted/primed in my shelf.

Getting people to paint stuff for you is totally legit. And the price tag on this project isn't high at all.

M0ff3l - If you haven't already you should send info about this thread and why you made it to Blue Table Painting so they can see it's an opportunity for them to show what they can do. After all, there's no reason for you to be unhappy with your stuff given that it's too late to change your mind at this point.

 frozenwastes wrote:
Getting people to paint stuff for you is totally legit. And the price tag on this project isn't high at all.

M0ff3l - If you haven't already you should send info about this thread and why you made it to Blue Table Painting so they can see it's an opportunity for them to show what they can do. After all, there's no reason for you to be unhappy with your stuff given that it's too late to change your mind at this point.

I could notify them of the post, however many people already think that BTP reads these threads. Also I wanted to showcase the average experience with BTP, so maybe telling them what Im doing will really skew the outcome. Or they will simply not care.

I would like to hear more opinions on whether or not I should notify BTP. If most people really think they already know about it, then I could atleast ask for their response?

 calamarialldayerrday wrote:
Perhaps I just have an entirely different perspective on the hobby, but in my opinion you just paid someone $800 to have the fun of painting instead of you.

I hate painting, I find it to be an unpleasant, tedious chore that I must overcome because I do enjoy having painted miniatures, and am too cheap to pay someone else.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 M0ff3l wrote:
I would like to hear more opinions on whether or not I should notify BTP. If most people really think they already know about it, then I could atleast ask for their response?

Scientifically, you should not notify BTP so that we get a fair comparison between that thread and an "anonymous", average commission experience Joe Schmoe would get.

Obviously, it's in your own self interest to tell BTP about this thread because realistically you will get a substantially better job than you would normally expect to get when this thread is, in a way, set up as a counterpart to the other one.

Pragmatically, it won't matter, they've already seen it anyway since they do read Dakka.

 calamarialldayerrday wrote:
I think that's an insane amount of money to pay to get an army painted. It's not a huge army either. Perhaps I just have an entirely different perspective on the hobby, but in my opinion you just paid someone $800 to have the fun of painting instead of you. You say you're not a particularly good painter, but neither am I. But it's still incredibly gratifying to make the army truly your own. You went to the trouble of kitbashing and greenstuffing and converting the models, why not go all the way?

And you (and people like you) are the reason that companies like BTP exist providing surprisingly low standards of work. A simple check of minimum wage against the quoted fee gives you how many hours you're paying for?
Why is it insane? You think perhaps painters don't need to eat, pay rent, pay for the paint, pay for their kids clothing? I shake my head sadly at you, sir.

M0ff3l, I would not bother notifying BTP. As you say, it will skew the result - though I would think the result will now be skewed anyway - BTP are under pressure to show they can deliver the goods, so to speak.

This said, I'm reasonably confident that you will (after a longer than expected turnaround) get a reasonable low-end tabletop finish on the bulk of your stuff. There's simply no way it can be done in a week, but there's nothing to say a service can't go over and beyond what they've been paid to do (I do it all the time, much to the chagrin on my wife). I certainly think they can hit what they class as level 3 easily enough (but then so can most people given a little bit of practice).

What will be more interesting is the standard of finish on the higher level stuff you wanted - I'd classify that (level 5 as described) as a high-end tabletop skirmish squad (or elite infantry), which is a touch over my basic - boiling down to more cleanup on any rough blends or transitions, which on rank and file are not particularly noticeable. Now for that level I start at around £35 ($60 ish) per model, in batches of 5 which take around 3 working days. Singles I start at around £65 ($115 ish) and produce a similar result, but concentrate on the individual model more taking up to a full working day each. My prices include assembly and basing - I generally do not accept pre-assembled work - it can make life more difficult.

My result is something like:

Multi-tone flesh (eyes, brows if suitable, lips, teeth, cheek blush, stubble). At least 3 levels of colour on major colours, plus tight edges. Freehand where needed. No slips, no screwups. It's not competitive, but it's a solid, shove-it-in-yer-cabinet paintjob. Around a 50-50 chance (based on the few squads I've entered over the years) of Golden Demon finalist, but no chance of top 3. I only charge additional amounts for freehand if it's something silly or overly complex - a mural on the top of a Rhino for example. Most logos or emblems are included in the basic cost.

You've paid between a third and half the cost. I'd say you'll get 2 1/2 - 3 hours on the two marine size models and maybe 4 hours on Typhus. You are going to get VERY rushed work - the standard will not match.

I think at the higher end BTP are out of their depth and have been for some time from what I've seen them produce. If they're charging normally what they've charged you I can see why.

 frozenwastes wrote:
This is actually a smart way to get good painting from BTP. Everyone will be watching and it'll be a chance for BTP to give this project the attention they should give to every project.

I'm guessing this $800 project is going to turn out better than the much more expensive chaos dwarf army did.

So much this.

I'm rooting for it, too, if only because some good should come about from this debacle. The wag in me though wants an implosion. Honestly, BTP can't 'win' here, methinks...a poor job and we say we knew it because of their history, a great job and we say it's because they knew it was being microscoped. The only winner is M0ff3l, assuming a satisfactory transaction.

Now...anyone up for a wager?

With the numbers being out in the open, it's pretty easy to guess what he should get.

winterdyne wrote:

 calamarialldayerrday wrote:
I think that's an insane amount of money to pay to get an army painted. It's not a huge army either. Perhaps I just have an entirely different perspective on the hobby, but in my opinion you just paid someone $800 to have the fun of painting instead of you. You say you're not a particularly good painter, but neither am I. But it's still incredibly gratifying to make the army truly your own. You went to the trouble of kitbashing and greenstuffing and converting the models, why not go all the way?

And you (and people like you) are the reason that companies like BTP exist providing surprisingly low standards of work. A simple check of minimum wage against the quoted fee gives you how many hours you're paying for?
Why is it insane? You think perhaps painters don't need to eat, pay rent, pay for the paint, pay for their kids clothing? I shake my head sadly at you, sir.

It's just an opinion. Just like someone who only utilizes a bike for transportation would balk at the expense of a car. If you don't ever travel far from home of course an automobile is silly. Different strokes and all.

Rusty Trombone wrote:

 frozenwastes wrote:
This is actually a smart way to get good painting from BTP. Everyone will be watching and it'll be a chance for BTP to give this project the attention they should give to every project.

I'm guessing this $800 project is going to turn out better than the much more expensive chaos dwarf army did.

So much this.

I'm rooting for it, too, if only because some good should come about from this debacle. The wag in me though wants an implosion. Honestly, BTP can't 'win' here, methinks...a poor job and we say we knew it because of their history, a great job and we say it's because they knew it was being microscoped. The only winner is M0ff3l, assuming a satisfactory transaction.

Now...anyone up for a wager?

This is why I'm hesitant to inform BTP about this thread (if they havent seen it already) and also why I was hesitant to start this thread. When BTP delivers a really good job, people will say they just tried to suck up to the community by doing this job good. I really tried to make this thread about an average interaction with BTP because I felt it would give people who are interested in using them the whole story in an easy read, so they can decide for themselves if they want to use BTP. Instead of seeing a mostly negative thread like the chaos dwarf thread. Which is a really bad experience, but certainly (atleast I hope so) not the average experience with BTP.

maybe you could ask a mod to "hide" the thread temporarily (e.g. in the DCM sub-forum) until the paint commission is complete and the models are back in your possession?

 M0ff3l wrote:

Here is the issue... This level of paint job for nurgle is easy to do. Base colors, drybrush, details, wash in camo, and slight highlights, usually more drybrush.

It is a nice paintjob, and easy to get quickly and will look better to the eyeball than it will to a zoomed in photo.

To compare a Nurgle paint job quality, or a muddy ork to a airbrushed fire effect chaos dwarf or highly detailed arbites makes a futile exercise.

And for those who think this is anything but 'money = time' remember:
42 Dollars to paint Typhus...
You need to recover some profit, to cover company expenses.
You need you cover raw materials, paint adds up.
You need to have a slight cost for infrastructure.
So that is probably going to be 5-8$ just on 'overhead' stuff...

So even if 35$ went to the painter... That is 3 hours MAX paint job. You can't get blending and extreme highlighting in that time.

I think you will probably get decent tabletop models you probably will be happy with... but I also think nurgle are easier to paint compared to tzeeench or models with actual fleshtones. I would love to see all 4 chaos gods presented as a single job since you would run the gambit of technique, styles and paint colors with the 4 gods.