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Assault marines. Stormboyz. Vespids. Praetorians. Raptors. Warp Talons. Skyclaws. Almost every army has at least one, yet the only really usable jump infantry unit seems to be the Eldar and Emo Eldar variations on the theme of "birdy-men".

What is wrong with jump infantry?

To me, it seems that jump infantry are a product of a bygone era. A time when an armor save was sufficient to survive a turn of fire if you were placed well, a time when an assault unit could transfer from bloody combat to bloody combat without risk, a time when you might even hope to assault the turn you came in. The inherent risk of jump infantry was the risk of the drop itself-coming in on a random turn with the chance to mishap. Now, we have that risk and we also get slaughtered as soon as we hit the board, making jump infantry doubly risky and creating a unit type that's too risky to ever bring to the table.

So what can be done?

Idea 1: Grant all jump infantry the ability to run (grounded) and charge, rerolling both charge dice if wanted. A "flying charge" using the jump packs grants hammer of wrath and a 3D6 charge range.

Thoughts: a targeted buff to just the melee centric jump troops, who are the ones who currently need it the most. Doesn't provide much benefit to shooting centric jumpers, who are already okay

Idea 2: Controlled Descent. Jump infantry when deep striking scatter as normal, then make a D6" consolidation move from their point of impact as they maneuver to avoid enemies and obstacles. Striking off the table still results in a mishap, but if all models may be legally placed after the consolidation then the unit does not mishap.

Thoughts: add a little bit more relIability to a unit that often wants to make risky drops, and as an added bonus don't necessitate jump troops to land in "pie plate formation".

The ability to use their pack in both the Movement Phase and assault phase yould go a long way. This would make them very mobile assault units and allow them to have hammer of wrath attacks at all times, or perhaps simply let them use them in 2 phases each turn (Movement and shooting, or Movment and assault.) make the run for jump infantry say 2D6 or D6 x 2, if they use their packs.

Other than that the answer is simply a points reduction would help, with the sheer volume of fire 1 wound units that are expensive don't hold up.

I don't think anything is wrong with Jump Infantry in general, people just tend to view them isolated from the real tabletop situations. Sure, some variations are really problematic (Warp Talons, Praetorians), but in my eyes it all depends on your list.

I run Raptors in my CSM melee heavy list. It contains the standard current CSM melee setup: Spawns and Nurgle Bikes with a Nurgle Lord on Bike. I add 10 Raptors to this and have some units in metal boxes.

Now it all depends on the usage: Spawns, Bikes and Raptors all close the gap to the opponent very fast, the Rhinos go fast and flat out behind them. Now the opponent has all the threats coming at him in one turn. And no matter what he shoots the other units benefit from not taking the shots. People tend to prioritize the Bikes and Spawns coming at their important units, they often feel that targeting 10 Raptors wastes their removal potential. I regularly see opponents target the Bikes even with their S4 shots. On one hand since I usually place Bikes and Spawns in front of the Raptors, on the other hand since they rather want a small chance for another Bike removed than reliably kill some Raptors.

Now if in the second turn a Mayhem Helbrute pack deep strikes behind the enemy line you have a target saturation with cc threat potential that overstrains quite some 7th ed lists.

If you take just one of those units and put them into your standard shooty lists they will most likely fail.

Or phrased the other way round: If Jump Infantry got upgraded in general I would gladly rip many armies a new one - that wouldn't be a fix, but rather make regular infantry totally useless. and they already got less interesting since everything scores.

P.S.: With Maelstrom missions you also benefit from Jump Infantry since it allows you to get those objectives quickly and in a flexible way.

My Canoptek Wraiths report that there is nothing wrong with Jump Infantry

But why not just take more bikes or spawns instead of the raptors.

Also how many points is that ? Two deathstars with troops and enough points to run dreads and raptors looks like 2000 or more points.

Firstly, realize that you don't have to deepstrike them; and depending on deployment you might not want to.
As far as fixing them, IMO there are 3 options:
1. Give them lower AP weapons or more attacks. At 12" a tac marine hits you twice on 3s and wounds on 4s with AP 5. An assault marine hits you twice in CC, generally on 4s and wounds on 4s with no AP. Jump melee infantry, with a few exceptions simply don't deal the damage that their ranged counterparts do. This is partially due to the WS chart, and partially due to the lack of melee options available. Since the WS chart is unlikely to be fixed anytime soon, the best option for now is to increase their raw damage output.
2. Make them more survivable. Giving them jink or an equivalent rule would help against the low AP fire that is much more prolific as of late.
3. Make them cheaper. In the absence of anything else, simply reducing their cost can give you enough bodies to be able to survive the firestorm and make it into combat.
A final option would be to give them all a version of the shunt from GK interceptors, giving you the opportunity to get closer more accurately. You could also take a dramatic leap from the fluff and give them ranged weapons.

 jasper76 wrote:
My Canoptek Wraiths report that there is nothing wrong with Jump Infantry

This, sorta. The issue is the pricing of most of those things listed, and melee in general. Praetorians would actually be okay as an alternative to Wraiths if they weren't more expensive on the first place (10 more points over the minimum for 5 gets you 6 Wraiths, dafuq? They need like 15-20 points cut). Raptors have the issue of being worse than Bikers for not much cheaper, and Warp Talons in general are just bad and don't do anything I couldn't get out of Raptors/Bikers in the first place WHILE being more expensive.

I don't really think there is anything wrong with jump units as such. Except for pricing on some. I play CSM and like to bring both bikes and raptors. For me which one performs best boils down to how much terrain there is. In dense terrain bikes aren't all that fast, while raptors really can change the game moving up using cover to stay out of harms way while scoring objectives and threatening weaker units.

For Raptors I would say they are fairly priced. You trade firepower for increased mobility. Not a bad unit.

Warp Talons is a different beast. AP 3 melee, 5++ save and with jump packs, but expensive like hell. If you need them and can get them in position they are golden, but far too unreliable and specialized for me.

Just give them the jink rule. That's all you have to do.

I would be fine with Jink, as it seemed to really help gliding FMCs in the same manner I would expect it to help normal Jump Infantry in regards to surviving until assault.

Warptalons are a a whole other animal and need some major rethinking.

 reiner wrote:
I would be fine with Jink, as it seemed to really help gliding FMCs in the same manner I would expect it to help normal Jump Infantry in regards to surviving until assault.

Warptalons are a a whole other animal and need some major rethinking.

Honestly, deep striking in CSM needs rethinking in general. You have beings that flicker in and out, and while they have jump packs Talons are said to appear and reappear from the warp itself as daemons..

Everytime I use stormboyz they work..

Everytime the Internet talks about Stormboyz they mishap from reserves turn four and then get shot to pieces before they assault something.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 reiner wrote:
I would be fine with Jink, as it seemed to really help gliding FMCs in the same manner I would expect it to help normal Jump Infantry in regards to surviving until assault.

Warptalons are a a whole other animal and need some major rethinking.

Honestly, deep striking in CSM needs rethinking in general. You have beings that flicker in and out, and while they have jump packs Talons are said to appear and reappear from the warp itself as daemons..

So correct on this statement.

I often like to play with a healthy amount of terrain and with that my raptors seem to do just as well if not better than bikes. Being able to jump over terrain can be quite a big difference compared to having to drive around it like bikes do. I'm especially fond of putting them right up next to smallish LoS blocking buildings/rocks. They are completely protected from shooting and can hop over and assault anything in 12+2D6 range. If you play with only 4 or 5 pieces of terrain as seems popular on the internet, then yah this ability makes little difference, then 12" is 12".

Jink upon deepstriking could be cool.

Here's an idea that'd never happen, but I think it'd be cool.
When any unit/model deepstrikes, if it scatters onto a unit, that unit can try to move per Tank Shock rules.
If the unit(s) are able to move enough to be 1"+ away after placing the deep strikers, the deep strikers are successful.
If they can't make enough room to place the deep strikers at all, remove enough models to make space, then applythe within-1" condition.
If they cant make enough space to be 1" away, the deepstrikers do a 1" disorganized charges. They are then in combat as appropriate for an Assault move (and considered to have charged).

Obviously, most of the time, it won't happen, and even if you do scatter onto something, they should usually be able to avoid the assault. But I think itd be really cool to have that threat.

Also, DS'ing tanks should be able to Tank Shock the same way, imo.

Crazy idea, it'll never happen, I know.

New unit, jump tacticals?

No hevey weapons, only special, and shoot at lower bs and a negative on assult just after landing to trade off for mobility, can choose to run or use jump, declared at movement phase.
Sqaud of 10 say 100 points to give jump packs.

High mobility at a price.

I like how my stormboyz perform. The guyz can pull off a 24-27 reliable' charge on the WAAAGH! Great for footsloggas. But for speedfreaks - yep bikes just have so much stuff going for them. Tougher, much shootier, actualy have reasonable armor and ability to get 3+ jink. For just twice the cost.

On paper, stormboyz have no chance in this comparison. But tactically, they sometimes outperform bikers. That's just it's harder to pull off than just rush forward without much thought - that and vacuumhammer makes the internet discard jump pack infantry.

 greyknight12 wrote:
Firstly, realize that you don't have to deepstrike them; and depending on deployment you might not want to.
As far as fixing them, IMO there are 3 options:
1. Give them lower AP weapons or more attacks. At 12" a tac marine hits you twice on 3s and wounds on 4s with AP 5. An assault marine hits you twice in CC, generally on 4s and wounds on 4s with no AP. Jump melee infantry, with a few exceptions simply don't deal the damage that their ranged counterparts do. This is partially due to the WS chart, and partially due to the lack of melee options available. Since the WS chart is unlikely to be fixed anytime soon, the best option for now is to increase their raw damage output.
2. Make them more survivable. Giving them jink or an equivalent rule would help against the low AP fire that is much more prolific as of late.
3. Make them cheaper. In the absence of anything else, simply reducing their cost can give you enough bodies to be able to survive the firestorm and make it into combat.
A final option would be to give them all a version of the shunt from GK interceptors, giving you the opportunity to get closer more accurately. You could also take a dramatic leap from the fluff and give them ranged weapons.

I would say they've gotten a lot of 1 and 3 already done. They got Hammer of Wrath Attacks when using their jumppacks to assault with (meaning effectively they're hitting with 4 attacks each typically in such cases, one of which auto-hits), and (at least with respect to Raptors and Assault Marines) they're a little cheaper than equivalent Tac squads after kit and transport, base they're 17ppm, certainly down from their 4E/5E cost of 20ppm and 3E costs of ~30ppm. Most of them can also pack 2 special weapons.


Personally, I don't see anything wrong with such units in and of themselves, but rather, they're usually not taken in particularly large numbers and when taken are usually the first imminent assault threat, and thus get made the priority target and are typically killed off quickly as a result.

i think deep striking in general needs a bit of a change, as the no charge out of such a risky move is a bit of an annoyance, especailly after eating overwatch anyway

The reason Eldar and Dark Eldar jump units are good as, at the end of the day, the advantages of jump packs most benefit a shooting unit, and most jump melee units have pitiful damage output with the exception of Stormboyz (whom I consider quite good; great charge range, tons of attacks, and half the PPM as assault marines). What's going to be more useful, a max 3 attack per model at WS and S 4 with no AP, or multiple medium range haywire/blaster shots, or, what is it, 3 or 4 shots each with splinter carbines. It really pays to get shooting units on top of building in a turn, jumping in and around cover and LOS blocking terrain, all things a mediocre overpriced melee unit doesn't gain much from.

That being said, I had some success with using Raven Guard chapter tactics with ASM and Vanguard Veterans. Getting to use jump packs in both movement and assault gave them excellent reach, and re-rolling to wound hammer of wrath let them actually hurt other units, rather than just being a hard counter to your points limit.

Still not amazing, but had an actual purpose attacking ranged specialists and units with bad assault potential.

I think it's more down to a problem with the game in general. There's just been far too much escalation in recent editions - in terms of both weapons and 'big' models. I mean, when you can take/ally-in a DK that can move 12" per turn, plus a once-per-game 30" jump, can have a 6-shot S7 AP4 Rending gun (which can also be fired as a large blast), plus a S6 AP4 torrent flamer, plus 5 S10 attacks plus T6 4 wounds and a 2+/5+ save, basic jump infantry start to look more than a little outclassed.

Furthermore, the ability to move 12" should be a big advantage, but it just isn't any more. Rhinos can move, what, 18" per turn. Drop Pods can deploy non-jump infantry with excellent accuracy and absolute safety, Fliers can basically cross the board in a single turn - with many being able to drop troops there.

 juraigamer wrote:
Just give them the jink rule. That's all you have to do.

But that's the thing - units shouldn't need Jink to survive in the open, especially since a lot of jump infantry have 3+ saves. A 3+ save is supposed to be good protection. The problem is that there's just too much crap that ignores it at the moment.

Also, a recurring problem I see is that Jump Infantry are just made outright worse than bikes. Bikes get relentless, extra toughness, flat-out, jink, and usually built-in weapons... jump infantry get Jump. Now, this would't be so bad, except that it rarely seems to be represented in the costs of those units - with bikers frequently being just a few points more than jump infantry.

Finally, of course, some jump units have rather more specific problems (Praetorians - 40pts apiece for an elite combat unit with 1 attack... just no ).

It also depend on what you do with them.
Sky Claws: I Always have a Wolf Priest with them [Giving Preferred Enemy and someone with a 4++ Save, 2+/4++ with Runic Armor] and a WGPL with either Paired Wolf Claws or a Power Lance and Storm Shield.
Assault Marines: These can have some issues [Shame the Sargent can't take a Storm Shield], but can be really effective with either Chapter Tactics: Raven Guard or White Scars.

Chaos Raptors:
>Mark of Khorne: Rage and Counter-Attack and Furious Charge can prove to be a real nasty combo
>Mark of Nurgle: T5 can help a lot especially when dealing with Guard
>Mark of Slaanesh: I5 and with the Icon of Excess FMP
>Mark of Tzeentch: A 6++ Save and possible Soul Blaze [I think this is the bottom of the 4]
>Veterans of the Long War: It can cost some, but if you are fighting Marines can be very worth it.
Warp Talons: I find Mark of Tzeentch giving them a 3+/4++ Save helps a lot.

the_scotsman wrote:What is wrong with jump infantry?

The only problem jump infantry have is the same problem people have with elites choice - they get them confused for heavy support.

Heavy support choices only exist to kill stuff, so you can judge them solely on killing power. Jump infantry are fast attack, though. If they're not surviving well enough or killing enough, it's because either you're thinking about them wrong, using them incorrectly or, more likely, both.

What makes jump infantry good isn't the damage it puts out, but they way it puts it. Deepstrike gives it an incredible amount of versatility with deployment, and ignoring terrain gives it a big advantage in movement, especially vis. a vis. terrain. Their speed, hammer of wrath, and often ability to take an extra special weapon means that they're very good at targeting particular units and then neutralizing them.

And that's how you've got to use them. You pick that one scoring unit your opponent brought and you take it out while the rest of your opponent's (and your) army is doing something else. Or you keep them back defensively and wait for a couple or turns and then counterattack that one unit your opponent brought in that really needs to be killed.

They're assassins with extra versatility built in. They're not a point-and-click unit that hoses down the table with firepower and calls it a day.

Giving them more upgrades just to apply more killing power faster misses the point.

 Ailaros wrote:
The only problem jump infantry have is the same problem people have with elites choice - they get them confused for heavy support.

Heavy support choices only exist to kill stuff

I wish someone would tell my Leman Russ Vanquisher that.


Anyway, out of interest, how do you see people misusing or misjudging Elite units? Or, perhaps I should ask, what merits should they be judging them on, other than killing power? If you see what I mean.

In practice, they should be assassination units. Some Jump Infantry actually are. However, you'll find that all the JI that are effective assassination units pack a disproportionate amount of firepower into their model count.

Swooping Hawks and Scourges are good because they bring cost-effective shooting. Space Marine Assault Marines, Warp Talons, and Praetorians are bad because they don't.

 vipoid wrote:


Also, a recurring problem I see is that Jump Infantry are just made outright worse than bikes. Bikes get relentless, extra toughness, flat-out, jink, and usually built-in weapons... jump infantry get Jump. Now, this would't be so bad, except that it rarely seems to be represented in the costs of those units - with bikers frequently being just a few points more than jump infantry.

This is a huge deal. I feel that bikes have really been overbuffed. They've got incredible speed, reasonable firepower, and amazing resiliency. A fully kitted max sized SM Bike squad with two specials and a heavy weapon toting bike and a powerfist isn't tremendously more than a kitted Tac squad in a Rhino or fully kitted Assault Marine jump squad, but gets to play with even more speed, an on-demand 4+ cover save (which, while reducing their shooting capabilities, does nothing to their assault capabilities, and the TL'd nature of most of their weapons helps with that), much more firepower, and T5 to boot, with some extremely powerful HQ synergies.

I think a big issue here isn't so much with the jump packs, it's that Biker units, often competing for the same slot and often the same role, aren't much more of an investment and are far more capable, resilient, and flexible. Why spend 17pts on an Assault Marine when you can spend 20 and get a Biker? For that matter, why bother with Tac Marines either when a Captain on a Bike will make Bikers troops

 Vaktathi wrote:

 vipoid wrote:


Also, a recurring problem I see is that Jump Infantry are just made outright worse than bikes. Bikes get relentless, extra toughness, flat-out, jink, and usually built-in weapons... jump infantry get Jump. Now, this would't be so bad, except that it rarely seems to be represented in the costs of those units - with bikers frequently being just a few points more than jump infantry.

This is a huge deal. I feel that bikes have really been overbuffed. They've got incredible speed, reasonable firepower, and amazing resiliency. A fully kitted max sized SM Bike squad with two specials and a heavy weapon toting bike and a powerfist isn't tremendously more than a kitted Tac squad in a Rhino or fully kitted Assault Marine jump squad, but gets to play with even more speed, an on-demand 4+ cover save (which, while reducing their shooting capabilities, does nothing to their assault capabilities, and the TL'd nature of most of their weapons helps with that), much more firepower, and T5 to boot, with some extremely powerful HQ synergies.

I think a big issue here isn't so much with the jump packs, it's that Biker units, often competing for the same slot and often the same role, aren't much more of an investment and are far more capable, resilient, and flexible. Why spend 17pts on an Assault Marine when you can spend 20 and get a Biker? For that matter, why bother with Tac Marines either when a Captain on a Bike will make Bikers troops

It is rather a common theme to be honest, Jet bikes for Eldar Guardians are far better, Nurgle Bikers are CSM's only main assault choice

True enough, I guess that's what's required to get people to buy them for more than 3x the $$$ per model of footsloggers

That's really the only thing I can think of, GW's been...*very* kind to biker units over the last three editions.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 vipoid wrote:


Also, a recurring problem I see is that Jump Infantry are just made outright worse than bikes. Bikes get relentless, extra toughness, flat-out, jink, and usually built-in weapons... jump infantry get Jump. Now, this would't be so bad, except that it rarely seems to be represented in the costs of those units - with bikers frequently being just a few points more than jump infantry.

This is a huge deal. I feel that bikes have really been overbuffed. They've got incredible speed, reasonable firepower, and amazing resiliency. A fully kitted max sized SM Bike squad with two specials and a heavy weapon toting bike and a powerfist isn't tremendously more than a kitted Tac squad in a Rhino or fully kitted Assault Marine jump squad, but gets to play with even more speed, an on-demand 4+ cover save (which, while reducing their shooting capabilities, does nothing to their assault capabilities, and the TL'd nature of most of their weapons helps with that), much more firepower, and T5 to boot, with some extremely powerful HQ synergies.

I think a big issue here isn't so much with the jump packs, it's that Biker units, often competing for the same slot and often the same role, aren't much more of an investment and are far more capable, resilient, and flexible. Why spend 17pts on an Assault Marine when you can spend 20 and get a Biker? For that matter, why bother with Tac Marines either when a Captain on a Bike will make Bikers troops

This is one part of a larger problem; GW always has certain kinds of units that they buff and others they nerf, not in the name of balance, but apparently "just because". Skimmers and assault-hoping units for 4th, transports and MSUs for 5th, Fliers, MCs and 2+ saves for 6th, and now Bikes and Psykers stand supreme. Alongside the more obvious ones, there's also less noticed shifts like here with Jump units vs bikes, or the gradual change from 5th to 7th with Skimmers being vastly superior to conventional vehicles, and in all these cases, through all the editions, its rare that the clear "winners" have commensurate points costs compared to the "losers." Did assault units which lost the ability to use vehicles to get into combat become any cheaper or better otherwise? Nope, and did Eldar bikes become any more expensive for becoming the best unit in the whole game? Nope.

TL;DR: GW either can't balance even basic elements of their game, or intentionally imbalances things to encourage model sales.

I don't think the jump-packs are the problem, its what's wearing them and their viability to cost ratio. To pick on assault marines: they're meant to be a melee unit.

*Their two 'special trooper' choices are rifles or pistols (is plasma pistol AP still nerfed in melee?). Only the sergeant gets to carry a 'special' melee weapon.

*Even without special weapons, they're generally more expensive than their tactical counterparts

*they generally can't score (blood angels aside)

*They generally get only one more basic attack in melee per model compared to tacticals as their advantage

*they need to be in melee range (base contact) to do their 'serious' damage output

Of all those issues listed above, the jump-packs themselves aren't so much of a problem. But then this touches on the whole chainsword = butterknife issue.